JACK FM

[OldiesCat]

First of all, David seldom misses the point.

Secondly, it's understandable you and others miss CBS-FM. But, the fact nobody else has put Oldies on the air in NYC is pretty good evidence that it's not exactly a format in-demand right now. This has nothing do with "dumping on boomers", it has to do with fulfilling audience demand. The backlash against CBS for dumping Oldies came almost exclusively from radio people, not radio listeners.

And you know this how? Who were those people listening in the last book?

I'm saying that if there was this enormous outcry for Oldies to come back, the other groups would have heard it and put Oldies back on ASAP. Judging by the "protest" a couple of days after CBS-FM went off (about 300 people showed up-once), it seems many of their listeners have found other homes. CBS' loss? Perhaps. But Oldies stations have been losing revenue and market share for years, so why would NY be any different.

The biggest protest against dying Oldies stations hasn't been from listeners but radio folks. What part of that do so many of you not understand?

 

[davideduardo]

After two years following the end of CBS-FM, it is unlikely that the billing, the ratings or anything else close to it could be recreated in NY.

Totally disagree. It would not only be a PR coup, the talent is still in one place to put it back on as if it never left.

Yeah, with even older listeners and no billing.

 

[wgliradio]

I'm saying that if there was this enormous outcry for Oldies to come back, the other groups would have heard it and put Oldies back on ASAP. Judging by the "protest" a couple of days after CBS-FM went off (about 300 people showed up-once), it seems many of their listeners have found other homes. CBS' loss? Perhaps. But Oldies stations have been losing revenue and market share for years, so why would NY be any different.

Let's be fair, when was the last time a format change in NYC created as much noise as the switch to Jack? And where have the listeners gone on traditional radio to find an alternative?

 

[wgliradio]

Yeah, with even older listeners and no billing.

There are too many people in radio who say "can't" and "won't". These are people who don't.

 

[leethalweapon]

Yeah, with even older listeners and no billing.

There are too many people in radio who say "can't" and "won't". These are people who don't.

Ok, say you did get Oldies back on. How would you get revenue? Very few agencies want to know you. You have to pay your "Legendary" talent. How do you propose to do this? My guess would be direct sales. Does your sales team understand what they are selling? Are their enough buyers out there willing to pay the price you set for a product that appeals to a very specific group? What sort of product would you be chasing to have advertise on your station? Here are a few things that you may consider as viable clients.

* Funeral Directors (They are the right age for the service)

* Seniors Health Aids/Services (Erection disfunction, Bladder problems, Heart problems)

* Insurance/ Finacial Advisors (Always a big one)

* Retirement Homes/Villages (For when you can't do anything yourself or don't want to live alone)

These are all things that people in the 55-64 age range should be thinking about. Some of it is pretty depressing stuff, but that is part of life for that age group and beyond. I know these are products that regularly appear on the station's I work for, and quiet frankly it is depressing. So you spend all this time trying to create an energy, only to have your listener crash back to the reality that they are old because the products you advertise (the ones I mentioned) are what they need at that stage.

I am finding that even the stations I work for (1 News/Talk & 1 Easy Listening) have scewed slightly younger to avoid some of these products and services becoming the mainstay of our business. At present our Talk station is #1 40-54 and 55+, as well as overall (people 10+). We have worked hard to get 40-54 as it is seen to be the fastest growing segment of the Australian media market. Our 55+ target ads are mostly sold direct, because very few agencies have clients that want to target the 55+ demographic.

 

[UncleBozzle]

While I totally grasp the concept Lee there are many other segments of business that "older folks" use. Let's see, while I know most have moved on to retirement and are armed with their retirement funds and pensions from a bygone era they do seem to buy an awful lot of high end vehicles. So one would imagine Lexus, Infiniti, Toyota, GM and Ford would be a good advertising bet. I've also noticed that many "older folks" are increasingly techno-driven. I see more and more using and buying expensive computers and laptops, along with the digital cameras to go with it. Let's not forget cellphones, travel, lifestyle, entertainment, gambling. It's a shame that Madison Avenue just doesn't understand that "these folks" are the $$ demo. 20 and 30 somethings like myself just don't have that disposable income that the "older folks" have. That's just the cold hard truth. I understand you can't cater to them with a format as they once knew, but they do deserve a place at the table.

 

[OldiesCat]

Nobody's saying they have no place at the table. But, at this point, they're just the appetizer or desert and nobody can feel totally satisfied without the meat, potatoes and vegetables-the main course.

 

[Element9]

From Buffalo, NY (where it's NOT snowing... but maybe tomorrow)

I've been reading thses Oldies-Jack threads on a number of boards. They're interesting, often factual and always emotional.

In Buffalo, the Oldies station morphed into Gold-based AC with moderate success. (See Radio & Records)

There's also a Jack in the market, part of a six station cluster (4 FM, 2 AM) that CBS sold to Regent. Buffalo's Jack appears to be doing well in the ratings. It's creating problems for the market's heritage Classic Rock station. It runs without jocks and it's probably making plenty of money. It also irritates most radio insiders who prefer live, local personalities, but Joe and Jill Bagadonuts don't seem to care one way or the other. Damn shame that is, but it is what it is.

From my perspective in the business, the whole Jack thing is as sales driven as it is driven by programming. The reality is, the quality "senior sales reps" are sadly a fading lot. They're being forced out or weeded out by attrition. These are the folks who understand upper demos and have an especially strong, experienced background in selling Oldies, Standards and Smooth Jazz.

I'm not one to be prejudiced toward the younger AE's, but most of the 22-25 year olds who enter broadcast sales do not have the understanding or sales expertise needed to properly and effectively sell the product. This is especially true when the product is Oldies. The most effective sales person has to understand his station's strength and weaknesses. This is a tall order for sales rookies selling any format, but even tougher when the station is Oldies. It may be a little easier if the Oldies station is top three 25-54 Persons, but it's still a chore, especially when the bulk of the numbers fall 50-54. And lately, even the most successful Oldies stations weren't placing top three, 25-54 Persons.

Most of the posters here are knowledgeable and radio savvy. We know that now more than ever, for many reasons, advertising drives radio more than programming. It appears to me this is the main reason why Jack's in and Oldies is out. Every dog will have his day.

-9-

 

[wgliradio]

Ok, say you did get Oldies back on. How would you get revenue? Very few agencies want to know you. You have to pay your "Legendary" talent. How do you propose to do this? My guess would be direct sales. Does your sales team understand what they are selling? Are their enough buyers out there willing to pay the price you set for a product that appeals to a very specific group? What sort of product would you be chasing to have advertise on your station? Here are a few things that you may consider as viable clients.

* Funeral Directors (They are the right age for the service)

* Seniors Health Aids/Services (Erection disfunction, Bladder problems, Heart problems)

* Insurance/ Finacial Advisors (Always a big one)

* Retirement Homes/Villages (For when you can't do anything yourself or don't want to live alone)

These are all things that people in the 55-64 age range should be thinking about. Some of it is pretty depressing stuff, but that is part of life for that age group and beyond. I know these are products that regularly appear on the station's I work for, and quiet frankly it is depressing. So you spend all this time trying to create an energy, only to have your listener crash back to the reality that they are old because the products you advertise (the ones I mentioned) are what they need at that stage.

I am finding that even the stations I work for (1 News/Talk & 1 Easy Listening) have scewed slightly younger to avoid some of these products and services becoming the mainstay of our business. At present our Talk station is #1 40-54 and 55+, as well as overall (people 10+). We have worked hard to get 40-54 as it is seen to be the fastest growing segment of the Australian media market. Our 55+ target ads are mostly sold direct, because very few agencies have clients that want to target the 55+ demographic.

Direct sales is one, I also think that the station would do Top 10 25-54 and would encourage agency buys to an audience that still fits the demo, is very captive, one that is more than likely to use radio over other devices and stay thru a set to hear your message.

I honestly also believe in a greater good here. Gutting the industry with formats tailored for a quick buck now is like cutting the rain forest. May not mean much today, but the overall damage to the medium in the future could be something you can't fix.

Radio has to be at least somewhat relevant to each demo if it is to survive, today and tomorrow and that means appealing to younger listeners, the 25-54 and keeping the door open for the people who would probably use radio the most, the upper 25-54 and the 35-64.

 

[leethalweapon]

I am starting to think that the only way you could get a 55+ buy from an agency, is by setting one up. It's specific roll would be to try and educate client's on the benifit's of aiming at the retiree market. Get all the data you can on the 55-64+ demo, and try and show your clients that this forgotten segment of the advertising market are very active, and actually has money to burn.

 

[amfmsw]

wgli...forget it. You're trying to reason with snobs who absloutely know everything about marketing and radio.

Here's your clues: first, anyone who insists to perpetuate the MYTH that the oldies demo is 55+. It is not. While it DOES include some listeners over the age of 54, the demo is 45-64. You geniuses keep putting that + plus sign in the discussion, indicating that it includes Nursing Home residents who grew up with Glenn Miller and Artie Shaw and are now 85 years old.

second: anyone who is so transparent to "prove" their point of view with starting out with Funeral Homes as the first to call on for oldies advertisers. That is pure age bias and ignorance.

third: they ignore the fact that we boomers still control most of the nation's wealth. I think they keep putting the format, and it's listeners, in a negative light
because they truly don't have a clue how to sell, manage, or want to learn about our lifestyle. Sirs, I respectfully suggest to you, I am a different person than my father at the same age. But they nod like a bobblehead dog on a dashboard "yes-yes-yes-your agency is always right. Your client is always right. 18-34 year old women buy Chrysler 300 sedans. Now, Gimme the order".

 

[OldiesCat]

wgli...forget it. You're trying to reason with snobs who absloutely know everything about marketing and radio.

Here's your clues: first, anyone who insists to perpetuate the MYTH that the oldies demo is 55+. It is not. While it DOES include some listeners over the age of 54, the demo is 45-64. You geniuses keep putting that + plus sign in the discussion, indicating that it includes Nursing Home residents who grew up with Glenn Miller and Artie Shaw and are now 85 years old.

second: anyone who is so transparent to "prove" their point of view with starting out with Funeral Homes as the first to call on for oldies advertisers. That is pure age bias and ignorance.

third: they ignore the fact that we boomers still control most of the nation's wealth. I think they keep putting the format, and it's listeners, in a negative light
because they truly don't have a clue how to sell, manage, or want to learn about our lifestyle. Sirs, I respectfully suggest to you, I am a different person than my father at the same age. But they nod like a bobblehead dog on a dashboard "yes-yes-yes-your agency is always right. Your client is always right. 18-34 year old women buy Chrysler 300 sedans. Now, Gimme the order".

A few clarifications:

A) most of that 45-64 demo you quote IS 55+. And, nobody but nobody (on any scale) is making 45-64 time buys these days. A direct client here and there, maybe. Enough for an Oldies station to survive or even thrive on? No way.

B) you should do a little math before so easily making Glenn Miller comparisons to 55+. Let's say somebody was 16 in 1960- born in 1944, that makes them 63 today. 63! OK, 16 in 1966, born in '52 makes them 57. In other words, your attempt to characterize our comments as aimed at 80 year olds is ridiculous. And, the mid-point of your 45-64 demo is around 55 years old, who's favorite music is centered in the mid/late '60s. A 45 year old is centered in the middle '70s. In other words, a 50s/60s based Oldies station is for people 55+.

C) I've never used any analogy between Oldies stations and funeral homes. You made that leap on your own.

D) Nobody here is saying "you boomers" aren't important to our economy. Hell, I'M ONE. We're saying (for the umpteenth time, which you keep insisting on missing) is that the businesses targeting "you boomers" is not targeting most consumers 55+. And this has nothing to do with the fact you're different than your dad-none of us are. It is not radio people who "ignore the fact that (you) bommers still control most of the nation's wealth". IT'S THE ADVERTISERS. Your beef is with them, not us.

Please quit insisting on shooting the messenger.

 

[LinoNYC]

A few clarifications:

A) most of that 45-64 demo you quote IS 55+. And, nobody but nobody (on any scale) is making 45-64 time buys these days. A direct client here and there, maybe. Enough for an Oldies station to survive or even thrive on? No way.

..Leads me me to ask; how do such stations as WABC and WOR with the oldest and second oldest listener demo's manage to to bill low to mid 20's mil/yr?

By not being an oldies fan, nor listening much to commercial radio I don't come at this with bias. I have however seen demo breakouts that show the oldies listeners to be slightly younger than the conservative talk listener, on average.

How do these talk formats survive, while music formats catering to similar or younger age groups disappear?

It's my suspicion that the answer lies more with the fact that music formats are generally on FM which presents owner with the opportunity to go after the much desired younger ears. AM, by contrast takes what it can get.

Am I wrong in suspecting that what we are seeing is really a matter of opportunity cost and greed.

Lino

 

[Walter Graff]

Seems NY isn't the only market talking about JACK and FREE. Their versions seem to suck too according to posters.


Excerpt from Phoenix board:

Quote from: KMGX on Today at 06:36:42 am
Free-FM is, unfortunately, not going anywhere for awhile. CBS Radio has a long history of holding on to bad concepts for a lengthy period of time... look at Jack-FM (WCBS New York), it consistently draws about a 1 share and yet it is still on the air, because CBS Radio is hemorrhaging money and stations like "Jack" are cheap to run.

CBS killed the Free-FM name on WCKG in Chicago last week, so it may just be a matter of time before they do it here and elsewhere.

http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,70792.0.html#top

 

[BACKnUSSR]

Seriously, who would be talking about a 50's/60's based oldies station anyway? Who even does THAT anymore? Even WCBS-FM, virtually dropped all 50"s (and pre-1965 titles) a couple of years before they flipped.

More importantly....those with programming experience (or insight) will note....it's more about a "sound" than the year a song was released anyway. (The Beatles still sell millions of albums a year and it isnt only to the 55+ crowd)....but I digress.

I agree with the points that were made that the old CBS-FM was starting to downtrend both ratings and revenue-wise. However, it was at that point still in better shape than both WNEW and WXRK (knowing that the Stern revenue and ratings were about to evaporate). The JACK-FM experiment (which by NO means is a success yet), would have worked well on either of those frequencies, avoided some of the PR backlash that CBS Radio has endured in NYC, and resulted in better billing across the three properties over the last couple of years.

But thats CBS Radio/NY for ya. (By the way...have you seen any market handled worse in the past ten years??? Is it just bad luck? Disaster after disaster....(O&A/St. Patricks....Blink FM.....Howard Stern leaving.....David Lee Roth coming....CBS-FM dying.....Free FM......IMUS.....)

 

[OldiesCat]

NY radio

Seriously, who would be talking about a 50's/60's based oldies station anyway? Who even does THAT anymore? Even WCBS-FM, virtually dropped all 50"s (and pre-1965 titles) a couple of years before they flipped.

More importantly....those with programming experience (or insight) will note....it's more about a "sound" than the year a song was released anyway. (The Beatles still sell millions of albums a year and it isnt only to the 55+ crowd)....but I digress.

I agree with the points that were made that the old CBS-FM was starting to downtrend both ratings and revenue-wise. However, it was at that point still in better shape than both WNEW and WXRK (knowing that the Stern revenue and ratings were about to evaporate). The JACK-FM experiment (which by NO means is a success yet), would have worked well on either of those frequencies, avoided some of the PR backlash that CBS Radio has endured in NYC, and resulted in better billing across the three properties over the last couple of years.

But thats CBS Radio/NY for ya. (By the way...have you seen any market handled worse in the past ten years??? Is it just bad luck? Disaster after disaster....(O&A/St. Patricks....Blink FM.....Howard Stern leaving.....David Lee Roth coming....CBS-FM dying.....Free FM......IMUS.....)

My comment about traditional Oldies stations are for those who see Jack FM as an afront to the Oldies format in general- the "hangers-on".

But you are quite right about New York radio. With few exceptions, many of the biggest bone-head moves come in the biggest market in America. I suspect much of this is because it's home of some of the biggest egos in America.