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Jack Off,Part Two: Die, Die,My darling
- Thread starter lalumia
- Start date
> In NY and LI, where "Jack" is concerned, it's not a pretty
> picture.is it?YEE HAR!
>
12+ numbers don't mean anything
Nothing can die more than oldies. Not even the lowest rated station wants to touch it.
> picture.is it?YEE HAR!
>
12+ numbers don't mean anything
Nothing can die more than oldies. Not even the lowest rated station wants to touch it.
Yes, true. And that's a testament to the mismangement running radio today.
> > In NY and LI, where "Jack" is concerned, it's not a pretty
>
> > picture.is it?YEE HAR!
> >
>
> 12+ numbers don't mean anything
>
> Nothing can die more than oldies. Not even the lowest rated
> station wants to touch it.
>
> > In NY and LI, where "Jack" is concerned, it's not a pretty
>
> > picture.is it?YEE HAR!
> >
>
> 12+ numbers don't mean anything
>
> Nothing can die more than oldies. Not even the lowest rated
> station wants to touch it.
>
>
> 12+ numbers don't mean anything
RobertGoldberg:
We can't post numbers on this board unlike the NYRMB. But WCBS-FM (JACK-FM) has lost more listenership than any station in a three month period. They now have less than HALF of what CBS-FM had before Oldies ceased to exist on 101.1FM.
Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy<P ID="signature">______________
Kevin L. Sealy</P>
> 12+ numbers don't mean anything
RobertGoldberg:
We can't post numbers on this board unlike the NYRMB. But WCBS-FM (JACK-FM) has lost more listenership than any station in a three month period. They now have less than HALF of what CBS-FM had before Oldies ceased to exist on 101.1FM.
Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy<P ID="signature">______________
Kevin L. Sealy</P>
Kevin, the numbers YOU posted there at 12+ numbers. The numbers they lost are the oldies listeners. Thats what Infinity wanted to lose. Frankly, nobody wants them.
> 12+ numbers don't mean anything
>
When a station is doing that poorly 12+ it is unusual from them to be doing good in any demo.
From the early results, it appears that Jack and Variety Hits in general does better (in fact does very well) in medium/large "heartland" markets such as Indianapolis, Nashville, and St Louis. The format is getting off to a slower start in the large coastal markets with the exception of Los Angeles (and perhaps Seattle). Interestingly the two markets where Variety Hits is getting off to the worst starts (New York and San Francisco) are the two markets that can't support and don't have country radio stations. Is Jack too "Middle American" for NYC?
I still say (and I know I'm not the only one who thinks this) that Jack/New York got off to a severe disadvantage because it replaced a legend. Even some former non-core CBS-FM listeners who are more in Jack's demo may feel resentment towards Jack, they may think of Jack as symbolic for everything that's wrong with corporate radio and corporate America. Jack simply doesn't have this kind of negative baggage in other markets.
>
When a station is doing that poorly 12+ it is unusual from them to be doing good in any demo.
From the early results, it appears that Jack and Variety Hits in general does better (in fact does very well) in medium/large "heartland" markets such as Indianapolis, Nashville, and St Louis. The format is getting off to a slower start in the large coastal markets with the exception of Los Angeles (and perhaps Seattle). Interestingly the two markets where Variety Hits is getting off to the worst starts (New York and San Francisco) are the two markets that can't support and don't have country radio stations. Is Jack too "Middle American" for NYC?
I still say (and I know I'm not the only one who thinks this) that Jack/New York got off to a severe disadvantage because it replaced a legend. Even some former non-core CBS-FM listeners who are more in Jack's demo may feel resentment towards Jack, they may think of Jack as symbolic for everything that's wrong with corporate radio and corporate America. Jack simply doesn't have this kind of negative baggage in other markets.
> Kevin, the numbers YOU posted there at 12+ numbers. The
> numbers they lost are the oldies listeners. Thats what
> Infinity wanted to lose. Frankly, nobody wants them.
>
RobertGoldberg:
CBS-FM's core listeners were the 25-54 demos and they were doing fairly well with them, although not as good as they did back in the early 1990s.
I haven't seen the demo breakdowns. But there's no doubt WCBS-FM (their legal call sign) has lost even a larger share of the 25-54 which is where it REALLY counts.
Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy<P ID="signature">______________
Kevin L. Sealy</P>
> numbers they lost are the oldies listeners. Thats what
> Infinity wanted to lose. Frankly, nobody wants them.
>
RobertGoldberg:
CBS-FM's core listeners were the 25-54 demos and they were doing fairly well with them, although not as good as they did back in the early 1990s.
I haven't seen the demo breakdowns. But there's no doubt WCBS-FM (their legal call sign) has lost even a larger share of the 25-54 which is where it REALLY counts.
Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy<P ID="signature">______________
Kevin L. Sealy</P>
> > 12+ numbers don't mean anything
> >
>
> When a station is doing that poorly 12+ it is unusual from
> them to be doing good in any demo.
>
> From the early results, it appears that Jack and Variety
> Hits in general does better (in fact does very well) in
> medium/large "heartland" markets such as Indianapolis,
> Nashville, and St Louis. The format is getting off to a
> slower start in the large coastal markets with the exception
> of Los Angeles (and perhaps Seattle). Interestingly the two
> markets where Variety Hits is getting off to the worst
> starts (New York and San Francisco) are the two markets that
> can't support and don't have country radio stations. Is Jack
> too "Middle American" for NYC?
>
> I still say (and I know I'm not the only one who thinks
> this) that Jack/New York got off to a severe disadvantage
> because it replaced a legend. Even some former non-core
> CBS-FM listeners who are more in Jack's demo may feel
> resentment towards Jack, they may think of Jack as symbolic
> for everything that's wrong with corporate radio and
> corporate America. Jack simply doesn't have this kind of
> negative baggage in other markets.
>
There is no Jack station in San Francisco. There is Max, a poor imitation that even Jack fans don't like. Jack is doing great in LA, the number 2 market in the US. It has been the number 1 English lanugage station in the desired sales demo.
As far as Jack New York, I doubt that anyone who wasn't a listener of oldies cares one bit that oldies were taken off the air. The target audience As far as Jack New York, I doubt that anyone who wasn't a listener of oldies cares one bit that oldies was taken off the air. The target for Jack in not the oldies listener. If it were, there would have been no need to replace oldies. The problem for Jack is CBS FM was so identified with moldy oldies that most people haven't given 101.1 a listen. The negative baggage Jack has with oldies listeners is irrelevant. The success of Jack is how other stations are trying to image against it like WPLJ and Q-104
> >
>
> When a station is doing that poorly 12+ it is unusual from
> them to be doing good in any demo.
>
> From the early results, it appears that Jack and Variety
> Hits in general does better (in fact does very well) in
> medium/large "heartland" markets such as Indianapolis,
> Nashville, and St Louis. The format is getting off to a
> slower start in the large coastal markets with the exception
> of Los Angeles (and perhaps Seattle). Interestingly the two
> markets where Variety Hits is getting off to the worst
> starts (New York and San Francisco) are the two markets that
> can't support and don't have country radio stations. Is Jack
> too "Middle American" for NYC?
>
> I still say (and I know I'm not the only one who thinks
> this) that Jack/New York got off to a severe disadvantage
> because it replaced a legend. Even some former non-core
> CBS-FM listeners who are more in Jack's demo may feel
> resentment towards Jack, they may think of Jack as symbolic
> for everything that's wrong with corporate radio and
> corporate America. Jack simply doesn't have this kind of
> negative baggage in other markets.
>
There is no Jack station in San Francisco. There is Max, a poor imitation that even Jack fans don't like. Jack is doing great in LA, the number 2 market in the US. It has been the number 1 English lanugage station in the desired sales demo.
As far as Jack New York, I doubt that anyone who wasn't a listener of oldies cares one bit that oldies were taken off the air. The target audience As far as Jack New York, I doubt that anyone who wasn't a listener of oldies cares one bit that oldies was taken off the air. The target for Jack in not the oldies listener. If it were, there would have been no need to replace oldies. The problem for Jack is CBS FM was so identified with moldy oldies that most people haven't given 101.1 a listen. The negative baggage Jack has with oldies listeners is irrelevant. The success of Jack is how other stations are trying to image against it like WPLJ and Q-104
Bring Back The Oldies
I am laughing up a storm when Jack tried to make the cut in NY only to cut its own ratings by 50%
Bring back the oldies and that's including DOO WOP.
I am laughing up a storm when Jack tried to make the cut in NY only to cut its own ratings by 50%
Bring back the oldies and that's including DOO WOP.
Kevin L. Sealy:
The core oldies listeners are in the upper end of the 25-54 demos with the average age being 51. Lousy demos in today’s radio market. In the early 90's the demos were younger because the people were younger.
The core oldies listeners are in the upper end of the 25-54 demos with the average age being 51. Lousy demos in today’s radio market. In the early 90's the demos were younger because the people were younger.
J
JerseyJim
Guest
>> The success of Jack is how other stations are trying to image against it like WPLJ and Q-104
Are you saying that Jack is successful because Q and PLJ have added a few liners and, perhaps, broadened their music? How does that negate their ratings drop? How does that help their bottom line?
Are you saying that Jack is successful because Q and PLJ have added a few liners and, perhaps, broadened their music? How does that negate their ratings drop? How does that help their bottom line?
> > In NY and LI, where "Jack" is concerned, it's not a pretty
>
> > picture.is it?YEE HAR!
> >
>
> 12+ numbers don't mean anything
>
> Nothing can die more than oldies. Not even the lowest rated
> station wants to touch it.
>
"nothing can die more than oldies"; ha ha,i guess you haven't looked at Jack's #s. I guess you don't count the 70s programming on the New Mix 102.7,which has defeated "jack", as oldies.I guess the programming on a station like WALK-FM,the #1 monster on Long Island,where the Supremes, the Four Tops,and Sonny & Cher can still be heard every day,you don't count as oldies,as are the popular retro programming choices on WRKS in NY.
Radio's biggest problem these days is the "newies"; as Elliot Spitzer has shown us, the newies aren't based on actual sales, as the 'oldies' once were, they're all weak product, paid for spins,which has turned the public off of radio as a genre itself,and also had a cataclysmic effect on music retail sales of CDS.<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by lalumia on 09/20/05 12:31 AM.</FONT></P>
>
> > picture.is it?YEE HAR!
> >
>
> 12+ numbers don't mean anything
>
> Nothing can die more than oldies. Not even the lowest rated
> station wants to touch it.
>
"nothing can die more than oldies"; ha ha,i guess you haven't looked at Jack's #s. I guess you don't count the 70s programming on the New Mix 102.7,which has defeated "jack", as oldies.I guess the programming on a station like WALK-FM,the #1 monster on Long Island,where the Supremes, the Four Tops,and Sonny & Cher can still be heard every day,you don't count as oldies,as are the popular retro programming choices on WRKS in NY.
Radio's biggest problem these days is the "newies"; as Elliot Spitzer has shown us, the newies aren't based on actual sales, as the 'oldies' once were, they're all weak product, paid for spins,which has turned the public off of radio as a genre itself,and also had a cataclysmic effect on music retail sales of CDS.<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by lalumia on 09/20/05 12:31 AM.</FONT></P>
> Kevin L. Sealy:
>
> The core oldies listeners are in the upper end of the 25-54
> demos with the average age being 51. Lousy demos in today’s
> radio market. In the early 90's the demos were younger
> because the people were younger.
>
So they traded being strong on the upper end of 25-54 for being weak everywhere. I personally like the Jack format (at least the music, the lack of personalities/service elements get's old after awhile). I'm not a Jack hater by any means. Still, I'm sure Infinity is dissapointed by these early results. The early numbers are poor for Jack/NY no matter how you spin it.
>
> The core oldies listeners are in the upper end of the 25-54
> demos with the average age being 51. Lousy demos in today’s
> radio market. In the early 90's the demos were younger
> because the people were younger.
>
So they traded being strong on the upper end of 25-54 for being weak everywhere. I personally like the Jack format (at least the music, the lack of personalities/service elements get's old after awhile). I'm not a Jack hater by any means. Still, I'm sure Infinity is dissapointed by these early results. The early numbers are poor for Jack/NY no matter how you spin it.
> > "nothing can die more than oldies"; ha ha,i guess you
> > haven't looked at Jack's #s.
>
>
>
> How is the revenue/profit situation for Jack? That is real
> criteria necessary to determine success or failure for a
> station.
Ask in 12 to 15 months.
>
> > haven't looked at Jack's #s.
>
>
>
> How is the revenue/profit situation for Jack? That is real
> criteria necessary to determine success or failure for a
> station.
Ask in 12 to 15 months.
>
> CBS-FM's core listeners were the 25-54 demos and they were
> doing fairly well with them, although not as good as they
> did back in the early 1990s.
CBS-FM listners were in the 45-to-death demos. They were off by about half in the under 55 listening in the last 6 years, and revenue was off nearly 20%, while the market grew by that much. You could not ask for a bigger sales disaster right on the horizon.
>
> I haven't seen the demo breakdowns. But there's no doubt
> WCBS-FM (their legal call sign) has lost even a larger share
> of the 25-54 which is where it REALLY counts.
They are growing back, month by month.
> doing fairly well with them, although not as good as they
> did back in the early 1990s.
CBS-FM listners were in the 45-to-death demos. They were off by about half in the under 55 listening in the last 6 years, and revenue was off nearly 20%, while the market grew by that much. You could not ask for a bigger sales disaster right on the horizon.
>
> I haven't seen the demo breakdowns. But there's no doubt
> WCBS-FM (their legal call sign) has lost even a larger share
> of the 25-54 which is where it REALLY counts.
They are growing back, month by month.
> > > In NY and LI, where "Jack" is concerned, it's not a
> pretty
> >
> > > picture.is it?YEE HAR!
> > >
> >
> > 12+ numbers don't mean anything
> >
> > Nothing can die more than oldies. Not even the lowest
> rated
> > station wants to touch it.
> >
> "nothing can die more than oldies"; ha ha,i guess you
> haven't looked at Jack's #s. I guess you don't count the 70s
> programming on the New Mix 102.7,which has defeated "jack",
> as oldies.I guess the programming on a station like
> WALK-FM,the #1 monster on Long Island,where the Supremes,
> the Four Tops,and Sonny & Cher can still be heard every
> day,you don't count as oldies,as are the popular retro
> programming choices on WRKS in NY.
> Radio's biggest problem these days is the "newies"; as
> Elliot Spitzer has shown us, the newies aren't based on
> actual sales, as the 'oldies' once were, they're all weak
> product, paid for spins,which has turned the public off of
> radio as a genre itself,and also had a cataclysmic effect on
> music retail sales of CDS.
>
NEW FM hasn't defeated Jack. Mix and Jack go after different people within the same demos. WALK maybe a monster on Long Islan but they aren't players in NYC or New Jersey. Oldies are a dead format in NYC. Only suburban stations are still playing oldies. No station in NYC will pick up oldies as a format. You may get stations to add a few songs but no one is changing to an oldies format. Not even AM. Oldies has its time in the sun by it's day is over with. Oldies are not coming back to NYC no matter what happens to Jack.
> pretty
> >
> > > picture.is it?YEE HAR!
> > >
> >
> > 12+ numbers don't mean anything
> >
> > Nothing can die more than oldies. Not even the lowest
> rated
> > station wants to touch it.
> >
> "nothing can die more than oldies"; ha ha,i guess you
> haven't looked at Jack's #s. I guess you don't count the 70s
> programming on the New Mix 102.7,which has defeated "jack",
> as oldies.I guess the programming on a station like
> WALK-FM,the #1 monster on Long Island,where the Supremes,
> the Four Tops,and Sonny & Cher can still be heard every
> day,you don't count as oldies,as are the popular retro
> programming choices on WRKS in NY.
> Radio's biggest problem these days is the "newies"; as
> Elliot Spitzer has shown us, the newies aren't based on
> actual sales, as the 'oldies' once were, they're all weak
> product, paid for spins,which has turned the public off of
> radio as a genre itself,and also had a cataclysmic effect on
> music retail sales of CDS.
>
NEW FM hasn't defeated Jack. Mix and Jack go after different people within the same demos. WALK maybe a monster on Long Islan but they aren't players in NYC or New Jersey. Oldies are a dead format in NYC. Only suburban stations are still playing oldies. No station in NYC will pick up oldies as a format. You may get stations to add a few songs but no one is changing to an oldies format. Not even AM. Oldies has its time in the sun by it's day is over with. Oldies are not coming back to NYC no matter what happens to Jack.
Re: Bring Back The Oldies
> I am laughing up a storm when Jack tried to make the cut in
> NY only to cut its own ratings by 50%
>
> Bring back the oldies and that's including DOO WOP.
>
"45-death"? What makes you think people who grew up on Frank Sinatra and Glenn Miller would spend any significant amount of time listening to the Beatles, Supremes and all the other largely uptempo 60s artists? A lot of these people feel the same way about this music that they did 40 years ago, that it's a bunch of noise! On the other hand, about a year ago, our local Oldies FM was still in the top 10 in 18-34 before adding 70s and dropping 50s titles!
> I am laughing up a storm when Jack tried to make the cut in
> NY only to cut its own ratings by 50%
>
> Bring back the oldies and that's including DOO WOP.
>
"45-death"? What makes you think people who grew up on Frank Sinatra and Glenn Miller would spend any significant amount of time listening to the Beatles, Supremes and all the other largely uptempo 60s artists? A lot of these people feel the same way about this music that they did 40 years ago, that it's a bunch of noise! On the other hand, about a year ago, our local Oldies FM was still in the top 10 in 18-34 before adding 70s and dropping 50s titles!
F
FMRadio1
Guest
Re: Bring Back The Oldies
Why can't you guys get this? It's not about 12+! It's all about DEMOS! There's a reason no other station in New York has picked up the oldies format after 101.1 went Jack. No agency wants to buy it anymore!
Case in point, WPLJ. Despite consistant ratings in the two's, they are one of the top billing stations in the city. With Scott Shannon at the helm, they could go oldies in a heartbeat and it would sound great. Their 12+ number would probably rise into the mid-threes, where CBS-FM was at the end. Sure, ratings would go up, but the revenue would go DOWN!
We all know that radio is a business. In business, products come on the market all the time, and when they stop selling, they are phased out and replaced with new products that will sell better. Radio is no different. Oldies formats are biting the dust all over the country, and not all of them are going Jack. Some are seguing to classic hits or classic rock. Others are switching to Country or even CHR. Why? These formats are easier to sell. Hot AC is one of the poorest performing formats in terms of ratings, but ad buyers purchase time on it which is why it endures.
WCBS-FM is cleansing it's cume. They weren't going to convert the existing Oldies listeners to Jack. They have to bottom out and rebuild. Because of it's demographic target, it doesn't even have to be a top ten station to bill higher than Oldies did at the end. Eventually it will climb it's way back into the threes 12+ and the suits at Infinity will be happy. No worries.
Mike Thomas
> I am laughing up a storm when Jack tried to make the cut in
> NY only to cut its own ratings by 50%
>
> Bring back the oldies and that's including DOO WOP.
>
Why can't you guys get this? It's not about 12+! It's all about DEMOS! There's a reason no other station in New York has picked up the oldies format after 101.1 went Jack. No agency wants to buy it anymore!
Case in point, WPLJ. Despite consistant ratings in the two's, they are one of the top billing stations in the city. With Scott Shannon at the helm, they could go oldies in a heartbeat and it would sound great. Their 12+ number would probably rise into the mid-threes, where CBS-FM was at the end. Sure, ratings would go up, but the revenue would go DOWN!
We all know that radio is a business. In business, products come on the market all the time, and when they stop selling, they are phased out and replaced with new products that will sell better. Radio is no different. Oldies formats are biting the dust all over the country, and not all of them are going Jack. Some are seguing to classic hits or classic rock. Others are switching to Country or even CHR. Why? These formats are easier to sell. Hot AC is one of the poorest performing formats in terms of ratings, but ad buyers purchase time on it which is why it endures.
WCBS-FM is cleansing it's cume. They weren't going to convert the existing Oldies listeners to Jack. They have to bottom out and rebuild. Because of it's demographic target, it doesn't even have to be a top ten station to bill higher than Oldies did at the end. Eventually it will climb it's way back into the threes 12+ and the suits at Infinity will be happy. No worries.
Mike Thomas
> I am laughing up a storm when Jack tried to make the cut in
> NY only to cut its own ratings by 50%
>
> Bring back the oldies and that's including DOO WOP.
>
Re: Bring Back The Oldies
> "45-death"? What makes you think people who grew up on
> Frank Sinatra and Glenn Miller would spend any significant
> amount of time listening to the Beatles, Supremes and all
> the other largely uptempo 60s artists? A lot of these
> people feel the same way about this music that they did 40
> years ago, that it's a bunch of noise! On the other hand,
> about a year ago, our local Oldies FM was still in the top
> 10 in 18-34 before adding 70s and dropping 50s titles!
People that grew up on Frank Sinatra and Glenn Miller aren't 45-death, they are 75-death. Today's 45 year olds were 4 years old when the Beatles had their first hits. In New York there are some 45 year olds who were listening to early rap/hip hop when they were younger, not uptempo 60s pop, much less Sinatra.
> "45-death"? What makes you think people who grew up on
> Frank Sinatra and Glenn Miller would spend any significant
> amount of time listening to the Beatles, Supremes and all
> the other largely uptempo 60s artists? A lot of these
> people feel the same way about this music that they did 40
> years ago, that it's a bunch of noise! On the other hand,
> about a year ago, our local Oldies FM was still in the top
> 10 in 18-34 before adding 70s and dropping 50s titles!
People that grew up on Frank Sinatra and Glenn Miller aren't 45-death, they are 75-death. Today's 45 year olds were 4 years old when the Beatles had their first hits. In New York there are some 45 year olds who were listening to early rap/hip hop when they were younger, not uptempo 60s pop, much less Sinatra.
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