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Jack Off!

Re: Where CBS-FM Went wrong

> let's face it, the word of mouth on it is sooooo bad, and
> the memory of the campaign against it and FOR WCBS Oldies
> will remain so strong, that they should just call it a day
> and save themselves the embarrassement(and start
> simulcasting Scott Shannon's "True oldies', which is kicking
> ass at am850 right now!)
>
Everyone is talking about the drop at CBS-FM, but do not forget, CBS-FM was doing fine till some "wiz kids' decided to start f***ing with the formula;suddenly, 50s oldies and doo wop, 2 strong components, were gone! suddenly, the broad 60s selection ,sometimes full of surprises, was streamlined to make way for 70s(which was acceptable) and then 80s(TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE)>That's not what the hardcore audience was listening for, some kid with a college degree theorizes that 70s and 80s have to take over, because someone like me, a child of the 1960s, is penniless and ready to expire! SORRY,POINDEXTER, WRONG! CBS-FM only truly began to flag when the inital DNA was tampered with, and anyone with HALF a brain would have figured that out(by the way, I STILL spend lots of money on everything, am very much a part of the world, and intend to be ten years and TWENTY years from now,i pod children!)
 
"True Oldies"

But that's the "IF" that counts the most- and they are not in those other places you mention. I suspect the guaranteed 60+ demos have everything to do with that.
> >
> AND Shannon's "True Oldies" is cleaning up in Conn. and
> would do the same in NYC or LI,AM or FM, if given the
> chance.
>
 
Re: Won't happen

> >
> > Like I have said before, the additude of advertisers must
> > change.
> >
>
> Why? The marketing focus of every major product and service
> in America is set very high up, generally with management
> and marketing. The product, in many cases, is designed
> around a desired market. And research shows who will try and
> buy the product and who will be a large user. The research
> will aslo show where there is going to be a negative
> return... such as trying to sell most products in older
> demos.
>
> Reasons why marketers don't go after 55+
>
> 1. Many older people have firmer, time-estabilished brand
> preferences.
> 2. It costs more to create awareness, trial and usage (ATU)
> than the profit on the sale.
> 3. Retired Americans have limited funds to spend (62+ and
> 65+ and, increasingly, younger laid off workers)
> 4. The product was not designedx for older demo appeal,
> from product to packaging.

True information, but are we going to just completely ignore the 55+ crowd? Act as they don't exist?

> An example is beer. Women drink it, and older people do too.
> But 95% of beer advertising goes after younger demo men,
> especially 21-44. This is because this group consumes many
> multiples of the consumption of other groups, to the point
> that marketing to the other groups is gnerally not
> profitable due to image tarnishing.
>
<P ID="signature">______________
Check my website www.freewebs.com/radiostuffandnews
</P>
 
Re: NJ AM Music

> It's in a suburban, satellite below #100 ranked market that
> sees almost no agency (MAJOR) dollars. "Doing extremely
> well" is relative. If they were Top 20 in the NYC book,
> that would be a stunning success- they aren't even in the
> top 40.

So? There are thousands and thousands and thousands of people in the market. I know that because I live in the area. WMTR is a success story and just because it isn't ranked at number 10 or something, doesn't mean it doesn't count. This area is very busy and apparently has quite a few listeners. You really should live in the area to understand.

>
> >
> > The "Classic Oldies" 1250 WMTR/1170 WWTR simulcast in NJ
> is
> > doing extremely well and the majority of their playlist
> > still focuses on 1955-1963 hits. After CBS-FM got Jacked,
>
> > they added 1964-1969 music, but I have yet to hear them
> play
> > any '70s music.
> >
>
<P ID="signature">______________
Check my website www.freewebs.com/radiostuffandnews
</P>
 
Re: Won't happen

>
> True information, but are we going to just completely ignore
> the 55+ crowd? Act as they don't exist?
>

Radio is in no position to change this. It is a smaller element in the media, and has no mission to take a 55+ message to advertisers. RAB campagins to get radio used, not to use specific formats or demos.
 
Re: Reality check.

> >
> Everyone is talking about the drop at CBS-FM, but do not
> forget, CBS-FM was doing fine till some "wiz kids' decided
> to start f***ing with the formula;suddenly, 50s oldies and
> doo wop, 2 strong components, were gone! suddenly, the broad
> 60s selection ,sometimes full of surprises, was streamlined
> to make way for 70s(which was acceptable) and then
> 80s(TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE)

The mistakes of CBS FM are exactly the opposite of what you state.

1. failure to get out of the doo wop and really old stuff fast enough... the image was that of stale music for over 55 persons long after it was gone.
2. failure to move into the 70's gradually while reducing and then killing the pre-65 music.
3. failure to develop a talent line up that was something other than 60's WABC jocks with 60's WABC sound. The jocking was stereotypical and not relevant to the under-55 crowd.
4. failure to recognize arlier that the 25-54 was going away as the library burnt and no newer stuff was added in.

> That's not what the hardcore
> audience was listening for, some kid with a college degree
> theorizes that 70s and 80s have to take over, because
> someone like me, a child of the 1960s, is penniless and
> ready to expire!

Tell that to the advertisers. It is not radio's fault, although the fact you may have money does not erase the fact that advertisers who spend millions developing markets feel that 55+ is not a productive market for many reasons.

Fact: if most o fthe audience is over 55, you will not do any transactional business... and in big markets, almost all business is transactional.

> SORRY,POINDEXTER, WRONG! CBS-FM only truly
> began to flag when the inital DNA was tampered with, and
> anyone with HALF a brain would have figured that out(by the
> way, I STILL spend lots of money on everything, am very much
> a part of the world, and intend to be ten years and TWENTY
> years from now,i pod children!)

If you ar eover 55 or nearing that mark, advertisers have vastly reduced interest in you. Radio simply designs products to appeal to the demos that advertisers want. Radio has no power to influence product design and marketing for this kind of business.

Again, 25% of retirees live on Social Security alone. NBow that is a big market...


>
 
Re: Older demo income

> They apparently missed the boat on adding early 70's bit by bit,
> and felt the brand was shopworn.
>
> They were so wed to the idea of having old
> WABC jocks ....In this case, the old seventy-seven jocks
> hurt them in the long run.

David, while I agree with most of your points, CBS-FM ALWAYS played a lot of 70's. If you listen to old airchecks, you might be surprised. Don't forget, this station played "Future Gold" and kept playing those songs. So "new" songs in their 70's day were played years later. Maybe the mix could have been handled better, earlier, but it was not as some oldies stations fell prey to in the last few years: force-feeding 70's upon the audience.

As for the WABC jocks.....Harry was gone, Dan Daniel and Dan Ingram (already out for awhile) were gone......that simply left NY veteran talent, so why blame management for not "updating" the talent? Sure, a fun, exciting morning show over the years might have helped some, but Harry's #'s were still OK and the station was still fairly strong through the years. The AGING demos were certainly the main problem.
 
Hey David Eduardo!... (Personal & O/T)

...sorry, but came to me like a lighting flash just seconds ago.

Were you ever in WNEW-AM's on-air studio sometime in the mid 80's?

If so, we need to talk (via e-mail). If not, it's no biggie. Like I said, it came to me in a flashback...
 
Re: Hey David Eduardo!... (Personal & O/T)

> ...sorry, but came to me like a lighting flash just seconds
> ago.
>
> Were you ever in WNEW-AM's on-air studio sometime in the mid
> 80's?

No, never in WNEW at all... ever.
 
Re: Older demo income

> > They apparently missed the boat on adding early 70's bit
> by bit,
> > and felt the brand was shopworn.
> >
> > They were so wed to the idea of having old
> > WABC jocks ....In this case, the old seventy-seven jocks
> > hurt them in the long run.
>
> David, while I agree with most of your points, CBS-FM ALWAYS
> played a lot of 70's. If you listen to old airchecks, you
> might be surprised. Don't forget, this station played
> "Future Gold" and kept playing those songs. So "new" songs
> in their 70's day were played years later. Maybe the mix
> could have been handled better, earlier, but it was not as
> some oldies stations fell prey to in the last few years:
> force-feeding 70's upon the audience.

Point taken. I always thought they made excuses for the 70's stuff, and were, at heart and in sound, a recreation of the times when the Beatles first visited the US... or wished they were.
>
> As for the WABC jocks.....Harry was gone, Dan Daniel and Dan
> Ingram (already out for awhile) were gone......that simply
> left NY veteran talent, so why blame management for not
> "updating" the talent? Sure, a fun, exciting morning show
> over the years might have helped some, but Harry's #'s were
> still OK and the station was still fairly strong through the
> years. The AGING demos were certainly the main problem.

Ageing is the real issue, but the fact that the station seemed to sound like a recreation of the Happy Days era always made me wonder. I think there are many people who like oldes, but are not obcesed with the era itself.
>
 
Re: Where CBS-FM Went wrong

lalumia i disagree with you about the 80s music. CBSFM for many years threw in 80s cuts during the day and at night which was great and it made them better than other oldies stations back then when others were thinking the music died after 1969 or 1975. CBSFM was the 4 decades of R&R and the best oldies from the 50s 60s 70s & 80s which was great. I agree with you about them dropping the 50s and early 60s music when the msgrr format came aboard 101.1 that was a total mistake on their part but as far as the doo wop shop goes i kinda agree with them dumping it since it was getting kinda ridiculus towards the end with these unknown and unheard of groups up at the station and some of the unknown doo wop music was not tolerable but when they did and later on may of 2003 started the heart of rock n roll show 8pm-12am they should have let Don K Reed host it not norm n nite that was another bad mistake. Then CBSFM went limited with the same 60s and 70s songs day in and out in march 2004 and that hurt them even more. I would say cbsfm in 2003 should have never putted too many sappy 80s ballards on the air but more good 80s records that people like. Many oldies stations which include WTRY 98.3 are 60s and 70s which is acceptable but not living up to that isn't acceptable. WTRY doesn't balance out the music between both decades that good, they play more 60s than 70s and thats no good and they rarely play the late 70s hits and early 80s up to 1980 or 1981 cuts which is unacceptable. 60s and 70s oldies stations like wtry should go from 1960-1979 or 1964-1979 or up to 1981 with the music and rotate a wide variety oldies between those 2 great decades of music not the same 300 song burnouts over and over. but anyway to me CBSFM should have stuck with the Motown Soul & Great Rock N Roll format til the end at least they were where they should be not limited all that much and going from 63 or 64 to 89 with the music now thats acceptable.
> Everyone is talking about the drop at CBS-FM, but do not
> forget, CBS-FM was doing fine till some "wiz kids' decided
> to start f***ing with the formula;suddenly, 50s oldies and
> doo wop, 2 strong components, were gone! suddenly, the broad
> 60s selection ,sometimes full of surprises, was streamlined
> to make way for 70s(which was acceptable) and then
> 80s(TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE)>That's not what the hardcore
> audience was listening for, some kid with a college degree
> theorizes that 70s and 80s have to take over, because
> someone like me, a child of the 1960s, is penniless and
> ready to expire! SORRY,POINDEXTER, WRONG! CBS-FM only truly
> began to flag when the inital DNA was tampered with, and
> anyone with HALF a brain would have figured that out(by the
> way, I STILL spend lots of money on everything, am very much
> a part of the world, and intend to be ten years and TWENTY
> years from now,i pod children!)
>
 
Older demo

very, very true. Those Oldies stations who've been most successful of late have moved into the 70s properly AND gotten rid of the "happy days"-type sound & feel.
Droning on about "this day in 1963" has been overcooked for about 10 years, anyway. The audience would much rather hear the latest about more contemporary
content (not 18-24 garbage but what many 40-50 yr olds are talking about every day and what's important in their lives). Shed the old "oldies" trappings and you avoid the risk of comin off to "old" and stuffy.
>
> Ageing is the real issue, but the fact that the station
> seemed to sound like a recreation of the Happy Days era
> always made me wonder. I think there are many people who
> like oldes, but are not obcesed with the era itself.
> >
>
 
Re: Older demo income

It’s ironic, we have an aging population and boomers who’ve made more money and now control more wealth are now turning 50 – 60 years of age. But agencies and radio are still chasing after the 25-to-54 demos. The 25-to-54 people have the highest need to consume, buying furniture, cars, homes and feeding kids. And when their kids need money for college, cars and buying their first home they turn to their parents who are now 50-60 years of age.

Maybe NY is different, but plenty of car dealers and furniture stores love buyers 35-54 and 54+, because they’ve got the bucks and can afford to buy higher priced products.






But you're talking retired persons (over 60) and I'm talking
> 45-54, which many Oldies stations have successfully evolved
> to. They have the loot, they're not so locked into their
> buying habits and they are huge in numbers. But again, 45+
> doesn't appear worthy of time & effort when you're a 30 yr
> old buyer or seller.
>
> >
> > The fact is that retired persons, on the average, have
> very
> > little money. Over 25% have nothing other than Social
> > Security, and another 30% only have a pension and Social
> > security. The average 401-k of a 50 year old is less than
> > $12 thousand dollars. There is a huge myth about wealthy
> > retired folks. If one looks at mdeian rather than average
> > income, it looks really depressing.
> >
>
 
Re: Reality check.

While I don't have insight into CBS-FM (only having been here a month)...back home in Boston, what you have described sort of plays out.

WODS 103.3 has been Oldies since approximately 1988 and is owned by Infinity. Now there were rumors of it potentially going Jack-FM (though Infinity also owns a Hot AC that now does "Whatever Weekends" because Entercom beat them to the punch launching 93.7 Mike-FM on the former Boston Dance/Rhythmic Oldies Station).

Oldies 103.3 is consistently the #4FM station in the overall 12+ ratings for Boston, so it is a strong, solid station (bested only by CHR-Rhythmic, AC, and CHR-Pop). It gradually took away it's 50s and most of the early 60s records, and made a segue into the 60s and 70s. They play a few 80s, but not much at all. The slogan went from "Boston's Oldies Station" to the "Greatest Hits of the 60s and 70s", and the ratings have remained as solid as ever. I don't know if Infinity has any future plans to tamper with it, but it proves as an example for your argument over smart evolution to keep up with the times.
 
> >
> Till the billing for the jack stations comes in at less than
> half of what it was before jack was launched then watch the
> CEO's head roll. Also, He who laughs last laughs best! This
> CEO is going to learn what it feels like to have a great big
> chunk of his tush bitten off and then watch the little
> wippersnapper run run run with his tail between his legs!
>
> By the way this is not the first time that the 50's and
> 60's oldies have been pulled off the front burner. I have
> the Radio Only Issues to prove it too! Take the Oldies away
> for a few years and then put them back on then watch what
> happens!!!! This is a cycle that radio needs to go through
> every now and then. Its called giving the music and the
> listeners a rest!
>

Again, you're missing the point.

I wasn't defending JACK. My point is, even if the format fails miserably, they'll do something else or give JACK a major tweaking. My point is, the Oldies station you knew is GONE and it's not coming back.
 
Re: Reality check.

We can argue about the formatics until the cows come home. It doesn't change the fact that sales at WCBS-FM dropped from $ 42 million to $ 34 million over the last five years. Now, we can argue about the relative talent of the sales people working at the station but they are probably the same people who billed
$ 42 million five years ago. New York's a ratings and advertising agency driven market. Buyers are notoriously not interested in the compelling arguments you can make about the older demographic having the disposable income. They want those numbers and that's pretty much all they care about.

I happen to disagree completely with their methods because it leaves a lot of stations out of the mix when it comes to regional and national advertising. It seems to me that an advertiser can reach a lot more people when he/she buys the doughnut and not the hole. And that is the problem that I think WCBS-FM and a lot of older skewing station face.

In as far as 'Jack' goes. . .it seems to me to be a tongue-in-cheek, updated oldies format. True, it lacks presentation and showmanship, but if you plot the music. . .it is not current hits.
 
Re: Older demo income

Wow, so you're saying that a 30 year old is making decisions for a company's product placement and marketing strategy to sell their products? Say it ain't so!

"How do we INCREASE sales of our product?"

"Get a hot young buyer who throws great parties and shows us a good time, exclude a huge demographic, don't give a (BLEEP) if the buyer is operating and thinking in our best interest because he's our bud and he picks up the tab at dinners, golf outings, bars etc.

Sound weird? it's real.

> But you're talking retired persons (over 60) and I'm talking
> 45-54, which many Oldies stations have successfully evolved
> to. They have the loot, they're not so locked into their
> buying habits and they are huge in numbers. But again, 45+
> doesn't appear worthy of time & effort when you're a 30 yr
> old buyer or seller.
>
> >
> > The fact is that retired persons, on the average, have
> very
> > little money. Over 25% have nothing other than Social
> > Security, and another 30% only have a pension and Social
> > security. The average 401-k of a 50 year old is less than
> > $12 thousand dollars. There is a huge myth about wealthy
> > retired folks. If one looks at mdeian rather than average
> > income, it looks really depressing.
> >
>
 
Older demo

Yeah, I know- stunning, ain't it?



> Wow, so you're saying that a 30 year old is making decisions
> for a company's product placement and marketing strategy to
> sell their products? Say it ain't so!
>
> "How do we INCREASE sales of our product?"
>
> "Get a hot young buyer who throws great parties and shows us
> a good time, exclude a huge demographic, don't give a
> (BLEEP) if the buyer is operating and thinking in our best
> interest because he's our bud and he picks up the tab at
> dinners, golf outings, bars etc.
>
> Sound weird? it's real.
 
real reality check

Very, VERY true- we keep saying these things but denial remaind powerful.

>
> The mistakes of CBS FM are exactly the opposite of what you
> state.
>
> 1. failure to get out of the doo wop and really old stuff
> fast enough... the image was that of stale music for over 55
> persons long after it was gone.
> 2. failure to move into the 70's gradually while reducing
> and then killing the pre-65 music.
> 3. failure to develop a talent line up that was something
> other than 60's WABC jocks with 60's WABC sound. The jocking
> was stereotypical and not relevant to the under-55 crowd.
> 4. failure to recognize arlier that the 25-54 was going away
> as the library burnt and no newer stuff was added in.
>
> > That's not what the hardcore
> > audience was listening for, some kid with a college degree
>
> > theorizes that 70s and 80s have to take over, because
> > someone like me, a child of the 1960s, is penniless and
> > ready to expire!
>
> Tell that to the advertisers. It is not radio's fault,
> although the fact you may have money does not erase the fact
> that advertisers who spend millions developing markets feel
> that 55+ is not a productive market for many reasons.
>
> Fact: if most o fthe audience is over 55, you will not do
> any transactional business... and in big markets, almost all
> business is transactional.
 
Re: True oldies kicking a__?

> Scott Shannon's "True oldies', which is kicking
> ass at am850 right now!)
>
In what way? Cume, AQH persons, AQH share, revenue, cash flow?
Do tell!
 
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