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JACK

Re: Knoxville Oldies

> Booger & all the others who think Jack will fail...
>
> I usually agree with you guys on most of the stuff, but I
> have
> to disagree with you on your Jack comments. Hear me out.
>
> First, SCC has made THE right choice for the future with
> Jack.
> It's proven to be successful in similar demos of Knoxville.
> Been
> #1 25+ in Nashville and doing just fine. Elsewhere, it's
> pretty
> strong. I know there are not alot of books behind it yet,
> but
> the concept is solid and versitile. See the Variety Hits
> board.
> It's as pro/con as it gets, but there is some serious proof
> that
> it's here to stay, whether WE like it or not.
>
> Second, listeners have responded to the over abuse of talk
> and
> blabber by running to commercial free and talk free sources.
> Radio
> has to offer variety. Some stations should talk and some
> should
> not.
>
> Third, when I told you guys that Jack was coming as recently
> as 9/22 or
> so, I said then that my only concern is/was that it will
> hurt IMZ and
> B somewhat depending on how ABC handles/controls it
> (nationally) which
> could be a problem. In Nashville, we made the pre-ABC local
> cut
> so it can be programmed in-house and react/respond to local
> market
> changes. That is my only serious concern for you guys in
> Knoxville.
> That gives Nashville an edge, but you have to take your
> signals
> into account. A 3.5-4.5 share would be pretty good. It has
> hurt
> sister Mix 92.9 in Nashville, so there needs to be caution
> on any
> overlap. Hopefully, it'll move in the direction of 80's and
> more
> rock instead of AC or Classic Rock to keep a minimum of
> ratings
> stealing - still ABC may not allow for this, so it could be
> interesting.
> BTW, you are the first market under the ABC agreement, so I
> really
> wish you luck...it's just to early to know how that'll go.
>
> Fourth, listeners like it well enough to stick with it. Yes,
> eventually
> it'll evolve with on-airs, but give it time and let it make
> it's mark
> before you claim it dead. Jack must continue to evolve
> musically and
> on-air. The voice of Howard Cogan seems to be incredible to
> many
> listeners (1/10 say no) - better than most on airs in many
> markets.
> Please, give it time, it has a way of hooking you in. As for
> P1, etc.,
> seems like it has done better than anyone thought possible.
>
> Fifth, Oldies formats dropping quickly - because of the avg.
> age of
> the listener and lack of advertising support from them.
> (This is fact,
> not my thoughts, I still think the jury is out on the 45+
> not buying
> products, etc. or being to old, etc.) Oldies has caught up
> musically
> with itself. Sad, but true. It may land somewhere, but for
> your market
> I would say it'll be fringe AM. Star 97 has a strong Oldies
> following
> in Nashville after Oldies 96.3 (SCC) flipped to Jack. But,
> that really
> is because Oldies 96.3 ran it's course and was tired. Oldies
> 97.1 is
> fresher and slightly harder rock. I have been a fan of
> format flips
> like this to take stations to the next level (re-inventing
> themselves
> if they are better and brighter.) Maybe you will get a
> better Oldies
> station.
>
> Oh, and the Marketing News comment about 55+, was that about
> radio
> specific? Cause Mix and B have been suffering from one major
> problem -
> advertisers are demanding a younger, more user friendly demo
> these
> days - i.e. they are skewing to old and have to freshen up
> and go
> for the $$$ demo - 25-45, less on the 54-. I know it wasn't
> a comment
> from booger, but it applies here.
>
> Regardless, radio has to forge ahead and try new things (or
> re-hash
> old things.) It is ashame good people get caught in these
> flips. I
> wish all involved the best. No doubt. Brice, the research
> for East
> TN was +++, in fact, if anything people wondered by it took
> so long.
>
>
> It is Cadillac Jack posting as "jack" on here (above) so you
> are dealing
> with the man - the legend - ask him some serious
> straight-shooting
> questions and you will get some great advice. Trust me, see
> this through
> for a while and give it a fair chance. Everyone in Nashville
> is and
> has been talking about it since May. I can't remember any
> other format/
> station getting such a broad range of listeners.
>
> I'll save the WCBS "fiasco" for a later post. BTW, I will
> say that
> no I am not a sellout on this, I just see the results and I
> will say
> the biggest concern I have is that the suits will tie this
> format up
> and kill it's evolution. That's why 80's and JO failed so
> miserably.
>
> Hope you have another 25 years in radio....if you can stand
> it, that
> is. Can't I take the gung ho corporate suit off now? Can't
> believe
> I actually believe in something, am I getting old or
> what?!?!
> Dammit, all.
>
> Okay, I know you can't wait to rip into this.
>
I agree with Tibbs 100% on Jack. I have gotten to the point that I would rather listen to Jack than any other station in Nashville. It has hurt Mix 92.9 but a lot of that has to do with Mix programming more for women than men and hearing the same songs over and over on Mix 92.9, i.e. "Baker Street", "Escape (The Pina Colada Song)", "This Very Moment", etc. I'm hearing a lot of songs on Jack 96.3 that I have not heard in years. It has also had an effect on 105.9 The Rock, because they have started adding a few more songs to their playlist, not just the same old AC/DC, Ozzy, Skynyrd, Zeppelin, Etc. that every other Classic Rock station plays. Jack is also an format that grows on you. I have heard the Oldies station in Knoxville,and imho, it sounded no where as good as Oldies 96.3 did before they switched to Jack and Oldies 96.3 was starting to sound pretty stale before they switched to Jack.
 
Re: Knoxville Oldies

> If kids want a jckebox...they'll switch on the ipod..thank
> you very much....
> The mindset of today's radio decision makers never ceases to
> amaze me!
>
> booger!
>
I find this one comment kind of amusing. You call the target demos of Jack FM "kids"? Jack isn't aimed at "kids". Jack targets mostly adults in their 30's and 40's (basically 25-49 overall). If this was a rhythmic CHR or mainstream CHR format that targets 18-34 and teens, then maybe your "kids" and their IPOD's comment would have made sense. I find it funny that you are now calling the people that like the type of music on Jack FM, kids. These people are 30 and 40 years old? If you are calling them "kids" and their music "kids music", then you've just answered your own question about why oldies is dying. It is simple; the demographics for oldies are growing older and older and are becoming less and less attractive to advertisers, period. I don't know why this is such a shock or surprise. It happened with Easy Listening and Adult Standards 10 and 15 years ago, so it was bound to happen with oldies when that group reached the same age. The demo that grew up with 60's oldies is now around 60 years old. Do the math (if you were in your late teens/early 20's in the 60s). Personally, I'm 36 years old; basically middle age if you will, and I spent my teens and early 20's with artists like Madonna, Cyndi Lauper, Men at Work, Flock of Seagulls, etc. etc. I know that time slips up on us, but like it or not, us Generation X'rs are now in the main adult demographics that advertisers want (30s and 40s), and we grew up on late 70s, 80s, and early 90s music; not 50s and 60s. We are now the same age as the oldies fans were when the FM oldies format was first born about 20 years ago. And basically, "Jack FM" IS the new oldies format for people my age (30s and 40s). It plays a wide variety of hits from our formative years (late 70s through 90s), just as the oldies format played music from your formative years (50s and 60s).
Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking the oldies format, and personally I love it and also really love 60's music. But I'm a bit of an anomolly, and most people my age, who grew up after the 60s don't know the music and aren't interested in it. It simply wasn't the "music of their life". So this aging of the target groups is why I think the "Jack FM" format has legs. Or at least a format similar to "Jack". Granted, the whole Jack "schtick" and imaging may not last, but I think the mix of music (basically 70's, 80s, and 90s oldies for people in their 30's and 40's) will last and be the "new" oldies format for now. Then in another 20 years or so, you'll probably see an "oldies" or adult hits format that plays things like Snoop Dogg and System of a Down. Sorry to break it to you, but "time marches on"! It's really that simple.
 
Re: Knoxville Oldies

Good stuff, BRH. The amazing thing is how fast the demo
is changing every six months at this point.
 
Re: Knoxville Oldies

> > If kids want a jckebox...they'll switch on the ipod..thank
>
> > you very much....
> > The mindset of today's radio decision makers never ceases
> to
> > amaze me!
> >
> > booger!
> >
> I find this one comment kind of amusing. You call the
> target demos of Jack FM "kids"? Jack isn't aimed at
> "kids". Jack targets mostly adults in their 30's and 40's
> (basically 25-49 overall). If this was a rhythmic CHR or
> mainstream CHR format that targets 18-34 and teens, then
> maybe your "kids" and their IPOD's comment would have made
> sense. I find it funny that you are now calling the people
> that like the type of music on Jack FM, kids. These people
> are 30 and 40 years old? If you are calling them "kids"
> and their music "kids music", then you've just answered your
> own question about why oldies is dying. It is simple; the
> demographics for oldies are growing older and older and are
> becoming less and less attractive to advertisers, period.
> I don't know why this is such a shock or surprise. It
> happened with Easy Listening and Adult Standards 10 and 15
> years ago, so it was bound to happen with oldies when that
> group reached the same age. The demo that grew up with 60's
> oldies is now around 60 years old. Do the math (if you were
> in your late teens/early 20's in the 60s). Personally, I'm
> 36 years old; basically middle age if you will, and I spent
> my teens and early 20's with artists like Madonna, Cyndi
> Lauper, Men at Work, Flock of Seagulls, etc. etc. I know
> that time slips up on us, but like it or not, us Generation
> X'rs are now in the main adult demographics that advertisers
> want (30s and 40s), and we grew up on late 70s, 80s, and
> early 90s music; not 50s and 60s. We are now the same age
> as the oldies fans were when the FM oldies format was first
> born about 20 years ago. And basically, "Jack FM" IS the
> new oldies format for people my age (30s and 40s). It plays
> a wide variety of hits from our formative years (late 70s
> through 90s), just as the oldies format played music from
> your formative years (50s and 60s).
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking the oldies format,
> and personally I love it and also really love 60's music.
> But I'm a bit of an anomolly, and most people my age, who
> grew up after the 60s don't know the music and aren't
> interested in it. It simply wasn't the "music of their
> life". So this aging of the target groups is why I think
> the "Jack FM" format has legs. Or at least a format similar
> to "Jack". Granted, the whole Jack "schtick" and imaging
> may not last, but I think the mix of music (basically 70's,
> 80s, and 90s oldies for people in their 30's and 40's) will
> last and be the "new" oldies format for now. Then in
> another 20 years or so, you'll probably see an "oldies" or
> adult hits format that plays things like Snoop Dogg and
> System of a Down. Sorry to break it to you, but "time
> marches on"! It's really that simple.
>


You know what I find funny...the fact that you wasted all that valuable typing time (with no paragraphs thank you) on a one word mistake. I use the term "kids" by accident. I am fully aware of the target demo thank you. And yes...the rest of my statement stands as is.
 
Re: Knoxville Oldies

> Booger & all the others who think Jack will fail...
>
> I usually agree with you guys on most of the stuff, but I
> have
> to disagree with you on your Jack comments. Hear me out.
>
> First, SCC has made THE right choice for the future with
> Jack.
> It's proven to be successful in similar demos of Knoxville.
> Been
> #1 25+ in Nashville and doing just fine. Elsewhere, it's
> pretty
> strong. I know there are not alot of books behind it yet,
> but
> the concept is solid and versitile. See the Variety Hits
> board.
> It's as pro/con as it gets, but there is some serious proof
> that
> it's here to stay, whether WE like it or not.
>
> Second, listeners have responded to the over abuse of talk
> and
> blabber by running to commercial free and talk free sources.
> Radio
> has to offer variety. Some stations should talk and some
> should
> not.
>
> Third, when I told you guys that Jack was coming as recently
> as 9/22 or
> so, I said then that my only concern is/was that it will
> hurt IMZ and
> B somewhat depending on how ABC handles/controls it
> (nationally) which
> could be a problem. In Nashville, we made the pre-ABC local
> cut
> so it can be programmed in-house and react/respond to local
> market
> changes. That is my only serious concern for you guys in
> Knoxville.
> That gives Nashville an edge, but you have to take your
> signals
> into account. A 3.5-4.5 share would be pretty good. It has
> hurt
> sister Mix 92.9 in Nashville, so there needs to be caution
> on any
> overlap. Hopefully, it'll move in the direction of 80's and
> more
> rock instead of AC or Classic Rock to keep a minimum of
> ratings
> stealing - still ABC may not allow for this, so it could be
> interesting.
> BTW, you are the first market under the ABC agreement, so I
> really
> wish you luck...it's just to early to know how that'll go.
>
> Fourth, listeners like it well enough to stick with it. Yes,
> eventually
> it'll evolve with on-airs, but give it time and let it make
> it's mark
> before you claim it dead. Jack must continue to evolve
> musically and
> on-air. The voice of Howard Cogan seems to be incredible to
> many
> listeners (1/10 say no) - better than most on airs in many
> markets.
> Please, give it time, it has a way of hooking you in. As for
> P1, etc.,
> seems like it has done better than anyone thought possible.
>
> Fifth, Oldies formats dropping quickly - because of the avg.
> age of
> the listener and lack of advertising support from them.
> (This is fact,
> not my thoughts, I still think the jury is out on the 45+
> not buying
> products, etc. or being to old, etc.) Oldies has caught up
> musically
> with itself. Sad, but true. It may land somewhere, but for
> your market
> I would say it'll be fringe AM. Star 97 has a strong Oldies
> following
> in Nashville after Oldies 96.3 (SCC) flipped to Jack. But,
> that really
> is because Oldies 96.3 ran it's course and was tired. Oldies
> 97.1 is
> fresher and slightly harder rock. I have been a fan of
> format flips
> like this to take stations to the next level (re-inventing
> themselves
> if they are better and brighter.) Maybe you will get a
> better Oldies
> station.
>
> Oh, and the Marketing News comment about 55+, was that about
> radio
> specific? Cause Mix and B have been suffering from one major
> problem -
> advertisers are demanding a younger, more user friendly demo
> these
> days - i.e. they are skewing to old and have to freshen up
> and go
> for the $$$ demo - 25-45, less on the 54-. I know it wasn't
> a comment
> from booger, but it applies here.
>
> Regardless, radio has to forge ahead and try new things (or
> re-hash
> old things.) It is ashame good people get caught in these
> flips. I
> wish all involved the best. No doubt. Brice, the research
> for East
> TN was +++, in fact, if anything people wondered by it took
> so long.
>
>
> It is Cadillac Jack posting as "jack" on here (above) so you
> are dealing
> with the man - the legend - ask him some serious
> straight-shooting
> questions and you will get some great advice. Trust me, see
> this through
> for a while and give it a fair chance. Everyone in Nashville
> is and
> has been talking about it since May. I can't remember any
> other format/
> station getting such a broad range of listeners.
>
> I'll save the WCBS "fiasco" for a later post. BTW, I will
> say that
> no I am not a sellout on this, I just see the results and I
> will say
> the biggest concern I have is that the suits will tie this
> format up
> and kill it's evolution. That's why 80's and JO failed so
> miserably.
>
> Hope you have another 25 years in radio....if you can stand
> it, that
> is. Can't I take the gung ho corporate suit off now? Can't
> believe
> I actually believe in something, am I getting old or
> what?!?!
> Dammit, all.
>
> Okay, I know you can't wait to rip into this.
>

To be completely fair...I'm not basing my opinion on whether or not I like the format! This is based on facts alone. Numbers already are slipping on Jack stations across the nation...read the trades. It's not a matter of giving the format a chance, it's a matter of what the listeners want...trends are revealing they don't want Jack.

booger!
 
Re: Knoxville Oldies

I agree with Tibbs 100% on Jack. I have gotten to the point
> that I would rather listen to Jack than any other station in
> Nashville. It has hurt Mix 92.9 but a lot of that has to do
> with Mix programming more for women than men and hearing the
> same songs over and over on Mix 92.9, i.e. "Baker Street",
> "Escape (The Pina Colada Song)", "This Very Moment", etc.
> I'm hearing a lot of songs on Jack 96.3 that I have not
> heard in years. It has also had an effect on 105.9 The Rock,
> because they have started adding a few more songs to their
> playlist, not just the same old AC/DC, Ozzy, Skynyrd,
> Zeppelin, Etc. that every other Classic Rock station plays.
> Jack is also an format that grows on you. I have heard the
> Oldies station in Knoxville,and imho, it sounded no where as
> good as Oldies 96.3 did before they switched to Jack and
> Oldies 96.3 was starting to sound pretty stale before they
> switched to Jack.
>

One more pretty important point. Research is now showing that listeners
will not wait through one bad song to hear one they really like. Considering the songs in the current Jack lineup...that one fact will proove to be the "crack in the armor" of the Jack format.
 
Re: Knoxville Oldies

>
> One more pretty important point. Research is now showing
> that listeners
> will not wait through one bad song to hear one they really
> like. Considering the songs in the current Jack
> lineup...that one fact will proove to be the "crack in the
> armor" of the Jack format.
>

You are right! Jack will fail because it plays bad songs?
CHR, Country, AC, Classic Rock and even Oldies NEVER
play any "bad songs." 25 years in the biz without playing
any "bad songs" is incredible. Heck, "It's a Miracle"
How have you pulled that off? Keep tryin'.

Seriously, the P1/P2 failure formula has failed to hold true
in most cities. Jack has risen to first listened to
status despite the dreams of the naysayers. Like the
lack of traffic/weather or no mindless morning chatter
has also run listeners off. All false predictions....

What do you think of the Howard Cogan liners, etc?
Hear anything funny or interesting?
 
Re: Knoxville Oldies

There's on thing that any Knoxville radio station has working against them that no other market anywhere in the U.S. has - that big green frog that uses East Tennessee as it's lillypad. WIVK is what I'm talking about. I have to admit that I've heard alot of stuff on Jack that I've not heard in years.

I've been wondering though - at the start of this discussion it was mentioned that another Knoxville station leaked rumours to South Central that they were flipping to Jack - leading South Central to hurry up and flip Oldies. I can't figure out why any other station would do that knowing how that flip might hurt thier own stations - unless that station that leaked the rumour was itself planning on maybe picking up the oldies format for itself.

I don't work in radio but I do think that the oldies format could still be successful IF it was done right. Oldies 95/106 just didn't really do oldies well. Oldies can cover anything from the mid 50's through the late 70's. That's 3 decades worth of music and thousands upon thousands of songs. If it was done right, anyone could go three of four days nonstop without repeating the same songs.

Same thing with WIMZ - Classic Rock. It can cover anything from the mid 60's to the mid 90's. Once again thousands of songs to choose from - but no, they keep playing the same 300 or 400 over and over again. Just like 95/106 did. In doing that, you get tired of that format real fast.

Jack does do a good job with variety. I've heard stuff from the mid 60's all the way to some fairly recent stuff. If there are any Jack programmers out there reading this - take this advice - PLEASE leave out that disco stuff.
 
Re: Knoxville Oldies

One more thought then I'm through for the night. It was discussed earlier and the more I think about it, this would make perfect sense - putting Oldies on AM. That's where most of this music started out - on AM stations like WNOX and WKGN. Find a good strong AM signal and Oldies would work out great! Old car collectors who have restored their car's original radio would come out great too since they mostly put AM radios in cars back then. I just had the original AM radio in my 53 Olds rebuilt and would love to have an AM oldies station. Right now, AM is mostly taken up by talk radio.

Actually, if you have a strong radio, you can still get oldies from 98.3 WLOD up in Sweetwater, but like I said, it better be a real strong radio.
 
Re: Knoxville Oldies

> >
> > One more pretty important point. Research is now showing
> > that listeners
> > will not wait through one bad song to hear one they really
>
> > like. Considering the songs in the current Jack
> > lineup...that one fact will proove to be the "crack in the
>
> > armor" of the Jack format.
> >
>
> You are right! Jack will fail because it plays bad songs?
> CHR, Country, AC, Classic Rock and even Oldies NEVER
> play any "bad songs." 25 years in the biz without playing
> any "bad songs" is incredible. Heck, "It's a Miracle"
> How have you pulled that off? Keep tryin'.
>
> Seriously, the P1/P2 failure formula has failed to hold true
>
> in most cities. Jack has risen to first listened to
> status despite the dreams of the naysayers. Like the
> lack of traffic/weather or no mindless morning chatter
> has also run listeners off. All false predictions....
>
> What do you think of the Howard Cogan liners, etc?
> Hear anything funny or interesting?

Ahhh...playing the best tested songs for your target demo instead of "bad" or poorly tested songs is what I meant my friend. Trying to apease everyone will certainly yield "bad" or poor tested songs for each demo. So you end up pleasing no one. The curiosity factor indeed has listeners tuning in big time. But again, my point is simply that once that interest peaks, listeners will leave again in search of something new.

The Jack format can't sustain them...again it's trying be all things to all people...and that won't work in the long run.
 
You Made My Point!!!

Jack does do a good job with variety. I've heard stuff from
the mid 60's all the way to some fairly recent stuff. If
there are any Jack programmers out there reading this - take
this advice - PLEASE leave out that disco stuff.


Thank you! You made my point...you had to wade through a disco song
to finally hear something you really liked on the station. How many listeners would actually stay listening to a station they really didn't like?
Only us nerdy radio people....that's who!
 
Re: Knoxville Oldies

>
>
> You know what I find funny...the fact that you wasted all
> that valuable typing time (with no paragraphs thank you) on
> a one word mistake. I use the term "kids" by accident. I am
> fully aware of the target demo thank you. And yes...the rest
> of my statement stands as is.
>
Sorry about the paragraphs. I actually use paragraphs when I typed it in, but for some reason when I post it they don't show up. (Sorry, I am not that computer savvy to know what I'm doing wrong.)
But anyway, I was just stating the target and philosophy of the format. I am not personally attacking you. I like the oldies format too, but I'm just pointing out that formats like this are the "new" oldies formats for people now in their 30s and 40s. This is the same age demo that oldies FMs targeted when they first started out 20 years ago. Time is just moving on. I don't think it is that outrageous to assume that today's 30 and 40 somethings would want a format targeted at their formative years. Also, I am not saying it is right, but like it or not, advertisers want those 25-54 demos, and they will buy and support the types of formats that draws them in. Oldies demos are increasingly pushing past the 54 mark year after year, and are becoming less attractive to advertisers. It is purely a bottom dollar thing. It happened 15 years ago with standards/EZ listening and it will happen again in another 15 to 20 years. Granted, the baby boomers who love oldies and are aging are a much bigger group and have much more money than other generations in the past, so maybe they will change advertisers thoughts on older buyers, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
As I said, I am not attacking you or the format, but that's just the way it has always gone in the past, and I don't think it is going to change. The bottom line is the ad dollars, and the advertisers want 30s, 40s, and early 50 somethings. And radio will respond to whatever formats and music that will deliver them and bring in the money. Simple as that.
 
Re: Knoxville Oldies

>
> The Jack format can't sustain them...again it's trying be
> all things to all people...and that won't work in the long
> run.
>
I agree with Tibbs. The oldies format also plays songs that not every oldies listener loves, as well as a wide range of types of songs. Are you telling me that most all oldies listeners will love early artists like Bill Haley and the Comets as well as later oldies artists like Three Dog Night. I doubt it that all will like both, but they have managed to sit through both on the same station, so why do you assume that listeners of the next age group won't do the same? Also, who says these are songs that haven't been tested or that don't test well. I am quite sure that there has been a lot of research put into the "Jack FM" format and it's targeted age group. It may present itself as "anti format" or "anti radio", but rest assured, the songs have been tested just as with any other format. The "anti-format" thing is more about imaging and connecting with the listener than an actual true statement.
 
Re: THE ONLY THING THAT MAKES SENSE

The broadcast companies spend money and time doing research to find out what kind of format would work good in a certain area. What they should do is ASK THE PEOPLE, ASK US what kind of station we want. Put a list of possbile formats on paper and let the potential listeners vote on what kind of format we would like and go from there. That would save money and time on re-search. Then when the format is chosen, let the people that will be listening to the station decide on the songs that will be played instead of letting some computer 500 miles away do the job.
 
Re: You Made My Point!!!

> Thank you! You made my point...you had to wade through a
> disco song
> to finally hear something you really liked on the station.
> How many listeners would actually stay listening to a
> station they really didn't like?
> Only us nerdy radio people....that's who!

Well, between us I almost dug out the leisure suit when I heard that! If I'm close to the radio I'll change the station if it's a song I don't like, but if I'm not close to it, I can bear a song I hate but it's HARD! I've also heard "Disco Inferno" and I'm on heavy medication right now because of that. Time to take another pill - gotta goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
 
Re: THE ONLY THING THAT MAKES SENSE

> The broadcast companies spend money and time doing research
> to find out what kind of format would work good in a certain
> area. What they should do is ASK THE PEOPLE, ASK US what
> kind of station we want. Put a list of possbile formats on
> paper and let the potential listeners vote on what kind of
> format we would like and go from there. That would save
> money and time on re-search. Then when the format is
> chosen, let the people that will be listening to the station
> decide on the songs that will be played instead of letting
> some computer 500 miles away do the job.
>

WIMZfan:

Most stations do local surveys. They research for format (although
I agree with you on the fact that the "format formulas" are pretty
much a standard set of typical offerings that can hopefully, but
rarily, be skewed for local flavoring.) Thing is if you ask 1,000
people, without speific limitations, what format or type of music
they would like and let them decide say 50 songs, you would have
1,000 different answers. Hence, you get iPods. SCC is the best for
using local audience surveys and music sampling. I do think
Citadel is in a rut with so many of their radio stations (nationally)
at this point that they may not being doing good research. Journal - I don't
know about. I agree that their should be a lot more listener
involvement in picking formats, but I have been "reminded" that
"if you do that, the people who don't get their format will not
listen." I also agree that the playing it safe formula is catching
up with stations. I have heard horror stories that if you play
a Phil Collins song followed by certain other songs, you may
run listeners off for not playing the "certain other song" before
Phil Collins. I think that causes MD to feel imprisioned to
alleged "research." It's considered a scientific artform to
program stations, but I totally disagree. Common sense makes
more money...and yes, considering what the listeners prefer.
BTW --- Jack is totally about "what the listeners say they like"
in very strategic surveys. So, this "playing what we want"
marketing is purely that. In fact, Jack is the most researched
format/music yet. That may be good or bad. And, despite what
most of US think, "Staying Alive" did test well. So did ABBA.
I prefer The Gap Band (Party Train) which did not do so well
over "Let It Whip." I don't know how anybody approved Air Supply.
Which is not played in Nashville. BTW, Jack is rocking harder
and funner in Nashville. Listen to www.963jackfm.com and hear
the difference.

And, above, booger made a reference to sliding ratings, which
I have seen very little 25+ evidence of GOOD Jack stations falling. If
done right, this format should evolve and attract listeners, not
run them off. Sure there will be ups and downs. Competition will
have to adjust TO Jack. If the specific station pays close attention
to things, they can continue to grow. There will be an eventual
end of the honeymoon period. If the specific local station does
what it is supposed to do right, it can tweak and prosper. AND
DOING THINGS RIGHT is the million dollar question/problem. Like
with Jammin' Oldies or 80's, playing it safe, allowing for stagnation
or putting them on auto-pilot with no direction is where the real
problem with ratings will happen. Same could happen to some Jacks.
Let's hope that's not where the ABC addition can cause the bubble
to burst.
 
Re: Knoxville Oldies

I agree with Tibbs. The oldies format also plays songs
that not every oldies listener loves, as well as a wide
range of types of songs.

Most oldies stations test all songs they play to only play the "cream of the crop" songs designed to appeal to their very defined target demo.

Are you telling me that most all oldies listeners will love early artists like Bill Haley and the Comets as well as later oldies artists like Three Dog
Night. I doubt it that all will like both, but they have managed to sit through both on the same station, so why do you assume that listeners of the next age group won't do the same?

You're assuming a lot about what I think about the oldies format. Who said anything about playing any oldies that were pre Beatles? In my book, music like Bill Haley isn't even an option for a modern oldies format.

Also, who says these are songs that haven't been tested or that don't test well. I am quite sure that there has been a lot of research put into the "Jack FM" format and it's targeted age group. It may present itself as "anti format" or "anti radio", but rest assured, the songs have been tested just as with any other format.

Hey I'm very aware of the research behind the Jack format. I'm just saying it doesn't hold water. Sure every song tests well they play. But does each one of the songs selected test with a particular target demo. I can give you the very best classsic rock songs...top 40 songs...soft AC songs...etc. But no listener will sit through this in the long haul. I'm not convinced the Jack folks have narrowed down the reach to particular target. Otherwise, you wouldn't hear songs that are all over the road! Jack has too broad of a reach in their music in which the listener has to wade through a lot of songs to get to some he or she likes. Other formats have music that's much focused on one genre are much more focused to the target demo.

The "anti-format" thing is more about imaging and connecting
with the listener than an actual true statement.

The "anti-format" thing is backwards! "Playing What We Want" makes absolutely no connection with the listener. It should be "Playing What You Want". It's not about us...it's about the listener.

booger!
 
Re: THE ONLY THING THAT MAKES SENSE

> And, above, booger made a reference to sliding ratings,
> which
> I have seen very little 25+ evidence of GOOD Jack stations
> falling. If
> done right, this format should evolve and attract listeners,
> not
> run them off. Sure there will be ups and downs. Competition
> will
> have to adjust TO Jack. If the specific station pays close
> attention
> to things, they can continue to grow. There will be an
> eventual
> end of the honeymoon period. If the specific local station
> does
> what it is supposed to do right, it can tweak and prosper.
> AND
> DOING THINGS RIGHT is the million dollar question/problem.
> Like
> with Jammin' Oldies or 80's, playing it safe, allowing for
> stagnation
> or putting them on auto-pilot with no direction is where the
> real
> problem with ratings will happen. Same could happen to some
> Jacks.
> Let's hope that's not where the ABC addition can cause the
> bubble
> to burst.
>
You guys may or may not remember the Top 40 radio format of the 60's and 70's on AM radio (yes before FM). The traditional Top 40 format failed years ago because it too was being all things to all people. You could Led Zep Whole Lotta Love....next to "You Light Up My Life" by Debbie Boone. Then FM stations came along and were Album Rock, Contemporary Hit Radio, Soft AC, etc. All were geared to specific groups and as a result the traditional Top 40 stations failed. Sure, people are tuning in because of the curiosity factor..but after a while...Jack will go the same way as the old top 40 stations...trying to appeal to all groups and as a result...appealing to none.
 
Re: THE ONLY THING THAT MAKES SENSE

That's funny. I always enjoyed the variety of the old
top 40 format. Believe it or not I can actually listen
to Led Zeppelin back to back with Frank Sinatra and it
doesn't bother me the least just so long as I like both
of the songs. Maybe I've got a wider appreciation for
different styles of music than most people, but I'd welcome
the old top 40 format back in a heartbeat!



> > And, above, booger made a reference to sliding ratings,
> > which
> > I have seen very little 25+ evidence of GOOD Jack stations
>
> > falling. If
> > done right, this format should evolve and attract
> listeners,
> > not
> > run them off. Sure there will be ups and downs.
> Competition
> > will
> > have to adjust TO Jack. If the specific station pays close
>
> > attention
> > to things, they can continue to grow. There will be an
> > eventual
> > end of the honeymoon period. If the specific local station
>
> > does
> > what it is supposed to do right, it can tweak and prosper.
>
> > AND
> > DOING THINGS RIGHT is the million dollar question/problem.
>
> > Like
> > with Jammin' Oldies or 80's, playing it safe, allowing for
>
> > stagnation
> > or putting them on auto-pilot with no direction is where
> the
> > real
> > problem with ratings will happen. Same could happen to
> some
> > Jacks.
> > Let's hope that's not where the ABC addition can cause the
>
> > bubble
> > to burst.
> >
> You guys may or may not remember the Top 40 radio format of
> the 60's and 70's on AM radio (yes before FM). The
> traditional Top 40 format failed years ago because it too
> was being all things to all people. You could Led Zep Whole
> Lotta Love....next to "You Light Up My Life" by Debbie
> Boone. Then FM stations came along and were Album Rock,
> Contemporary Hit Radio, Soft AC, etc. All were geared to
> specific groups and as a result the traditional Top 40
> stations failed. Sure, people are tuning in because of the
> curiosity factor..but after a while...Jack will go the same
> way as the old top 40 stations...trying to appeal to all
> groups and as a result...appealing to none.
>
 
Re: Knoxville Oldies

Basically, the way I see it, coming from the target age demo that "Jack" is looking for, is that it is basically the oldies format, re-branded for the next generation of listeners. As I said earlier, this format is now seeking the same age group that the FM Oldies stations did when they first started popping up 15 to 20 years ago.
While the Oldies format played the big hits of the baby boomer's formative years (late 50's through early 70s; and later on mostly mid 60s to mid 70s), the new "Jack" format pretty much plays the big hits of Generation X's formative years (late 70's through mid 90s). If you listen for a good while to most of the "Jack", "Bob", adult hits formats, and especially the satellite feed being used in Knoxville, you will hear a large majority of the songs falling into the catagory of 80's hits. The 70's and 90's music is used more sparingly as a "spike" or "spice" song. I'd say it is usually 60 percent 80s with maybe 20 percent 70's and 20 percent 90's. This is kind of the same thing the oldies format did focusing on the 60's with a little 50's at first, and some 70s thrown in for spice.
As far as genres being mixed goes; well the Oldies format has mixed styles as well. They have drawn from rockabilly to doo wop to folk rock to psychedelic rock to bubblegum type pop to singer songwriters to Motown and soul, etc. This is a mix of different types of music as well, so why does it work for the Oldies format but not for the Jack/Adult hits format? The Jack format basically does the same thing; drawing from various styles of music that were popular and made the chart in the late 70's through the 80's and 90's.
Also, you mentioned the presentation aspect of the format. "Jack" is targeting basically the Generation X demographic, if you will. These are people in their 30s and 40s that grew up with their childhood in the 70s, formative teen years in the 80s and their early adulthood in the 90's. They were the ones listening to CHR's like Z100 in the 80s, then listening to the big alternative and modern AC station in the 90's, and are now the ones that "Jack" is aiming for. You say that the moniker should be "playing what YOU want" instead of "playing what we want". You are missing the psychology aspect of the group that this format is aiming for. This is the Gen. X age group. They will not respond to "typical" oldies type imaging. You can't simply update the music and keep the same formatics. They don't like or respond to the word "oldies". Also, they don't care for the "fun", "good times" presentation either. Remember, us Gen. X's are the group that has always had a chip on our shoulders and been known as "slackers", or "pessimistic". This anti-authority or "anti-everything is alright and great" attitude is very crucial in the type of presentation it takes to reach them. Just look at the huge alternative boom in the early 90s and the big Modern AC boom in the mid and late 90s. One key element of all of these stations was the deadpan, slacker type imaging and voiceovers. They were smartass, anti-social, and definately trying to be 100 percent in the other direction of the way that traditional formats (like Oldies) are imaged and produced. And the "Jack" format is now going after this same exact group that was listening to these alternatives in the early 90s and modern ACs in the late 90s. So the deadpan, slacker imaging is right on target and is almost exactly the same approach these other formats were doing 10 to 12 years ago. That is why a statement like "playing what WE want" and "not taking requests 24 hours a day" strikes a chord with this group and connects very well. If you put on an Oldies format targeted at this same age group and featuring the same late 70s, 80s, and 90s music, but presented it in a typical oldies fashion with statements like "Good Times and Fun hits of the 70s, 80s, and 90s", etc., it would be laughed at and thought of as "corny" or "too commercial" for this
Gen. X demographic. It's simply doesn't connect with the attitudes they have grown up with. Smartass imaging like, "yeah, we play whatever we want, we don't take requests, and if you don't like it so what!" is an attitude that, believe it or not, will connect very much with a huge group of these people. It's the kind of slacker, pessimistic outlook that many in this age demographic have had all their life. It may be hard for someone of the baby boomer generation to understand, but it is crystal clear to someone my age who grew up in this age group. As I said, just look at the huge alternative/modern rock movement of the early 90s and look at the lyrics and thoughts that were presented in most of those songs. It may be very dim and mopy and angry and pessimistic to someone of the baby boomer generation, but it WAS the music that defined what this generation was all about. And this whole psychological aspect of Gen. X (or whatever you want to call us) is exactly the reason for the type of imaging and presentation that "Jack FM" has. It is basically the oldies format for 30's and 40 somethings, packaged in a way that relates and taps into their psyches.
And once again, as far as mixing styles goes. This is the age group that was a kid listening in the car with their parents to 70's classic rock and other hits, then they were teenagers in high school when the big new wave and synth-rock of the 80s burst on the scene, then they were in college and early adulthood when the huge alternative and modern AC boom hit in the 90s. So this format is playing the kinds of music that were popular and that Generation X grew up with. (just like the Oldies format did with the baby boomers a generation before it). So why do you think "Jack" doesn't connect or compare directly to what the Oldies format did for the previous generation? As I said, I simply see it as the oldies format for Gen. X'ers. No it isn't presented as the previous oldies formats were, but this is a whole different generation with a different outlook on life, different social history, and they have to be reached and connected to with a whole different style and presentation. I think this difference in presentation and what connects with this age group may be what you are not understanding about the "Jack" format.
 
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