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Jamestown TV market?
- Thread starter dustintv
- Start date
I'm not a big expert of New York TV, but I'll give you a reasonable answer, I hope...
If there was a hypothetical Jamestown market, it would be very small. How small? Well the examples you gave(Binghamton, Utica, and Elmira) are at markets #157, 169, and 173 respectively. Thus I think it would be safe to conclude Jamestown would be smaller. The stations would probably all UHF(not that it matters today) and would probably have to use at least one out-of-market big three station, which occurs like the three examples you mentioned.
Jamestown is also 49 miles away from Erie on the newish eastern corridor of I-86. Rather close if you ask me. Then again, other NY markets are fairly close to each other. I can't help you there. I guess a good argument is that Jamestown doesn't get adequate coverage, but I don't know about that. It's not like I'm a genius or something ;D
If there was a hypothetical Jamestown market, it would be very small. How small? Well the examples you gave(Binghamton, Utica, and Elmira) are at markets #157, 169, and 173 respectively. Thus I think it would be safe to conclude Jamestown would be smaller. The stations would probably all UHF(not that it matters today) and would probably have to use at least one out-of-market big three station, which occurs like the three examples you mentioned.
Jamestown is also 49 miles away from Erie on the newish eastern corridor of I-86. Rather close if you ask me. Then again, other NY markets are fairly close to each other. I can't help you there. I guess a good argument is that Jamestown doesn't get adequate coverage, but I don't know about that. It's not like I'm a genius or something ;D
I've only been to Jamestown once, and I didn't get the impression it was a really big town.
The other three small markets you mentioned have one or more other cities very close nearby. Utica is flanked by Rome and Herkimer; Binghamton has Endicott, Johnson City, etc; and Elmira has Corning. Jamestown, on the other hand, is kinda hanging out there by itself. If there were one or two more cities of similar size within a few miles -- preferably to the east or south -- the chances might be better.
As it stands now, being served by Buffalo and/or Erie is not that out of the ordinary. We just recently had a thread discussing that Poughkeepsie is 80 miles away from both NYC and Albany. Go north of Albany and it'll be a few hours until you get to the next TV market, in Plattsburgh. Go west from there and it's a lengthy haul to Watertown.
Besides, any startup market would require permission from the affiliates already serving the area. It's almost not even worth asking, because no GM in their right mind would willingly give away potential viewers.
The other three small markets you mentioned have one or more other cities very close nearby. Utica is flanked by Rome and Herkimer; Binghamton has Endicott, Johnson City, etc; and Elmira has Corning. Jamestown, on the other hand, is kinda hanging out there by itself. If there were one or two more cities of similar size within a few miles -- preferably to the east or south -- the chances might be better.
As it stands now, being served by Buffalo and/or Erie is not that out of the ordinary. We just recently had a thread discussing that Poughkeepsie is 80 miles away from both NYC and Albany. Go north of Albany and it'll be a few hours until you get to the next TV market, in Plattsburgh. Go west from there and it's a lengthy haul to Watertown.
Besides, any startup market would require permission from the affiliates already serving the area. It's almost not even worth asking, because no GM in their right mind would willingly give away potential viewers.
dustintv said:
No stations.
City First station Channels assigned
Utica WKTV-2, 1949 2, 4, 20, 33, *59
Binghamton WBNG-12, 1949 12, 34, 40, *46
Elmira WETM-18, 1956 18, 36
Jamestown WNYB-26, 1988 26, *46
* means non-commercial reserved.
It's my understanding (refutable!) that to attach a county to a TV market, more than half of viewing in that county must be of stations licensed to that market. For Jamestown to become its own market, more than half of Chautauqua Co. viewing would have to be of channel 26. But by the time channel 26 came on the air, Jamestown viewers had other choices. Jamestown viewers wouldn't go without TV for 35 years - they put up antennas (or more likely in recent years, subscribed to cable) adequate to receive Buffalo and/or Erie. In the presence of other choices, the chances of channel 26 pulling a 50 share are zero. Especially since only through out-of-town viewing would it be possible to receive all three (later four) networks, since Jamestown only has one commercial station.
I would suggest Elmira achieved separate market status because channel 18 signed on at a time when out-of-town reception was much more difficult. Most UHF stations were much less powerful than they are today. Receivers weren't very good. Elmira viewers had essentially two choices: channel 18 or channel 12 in Binghamton. *Maybe*, with a large antenna, unreliable snowy reception of channels 3/5/9 from Syracuse. It doesn't seem too unreasonable to see channel 18 landing a 50 share, and once channel 36 came on the air, the chances of a 50 share between the two stations seem even better.
Why was only one commercial channel ever assigned to Jamestown? Good question. I guess the FCC didn't consider the town important enough. Between Erie, Buffalo, Cleveland, Rochester, and the populous adjacent areas of Canada, the dial is pretty crowded around there.
A
anoldguy
Guest
Utica WKTV-2, 1949 2, 4, 20, 33, *59
Interesting..... Has anyone ever applied for channel 4 in Utica? I always wondered why Park Broadcasting didn't in the early 1970's instead of channel 20.
Interesting..... Has anyone ever applied for channel 4 in Utica? I always wondered why Park Broadcasting didn't in the early 1970's instead of channel 20.
Elmira did not become a separate market until ch 18/WETM was separated from WSTM in 1986. Up until that year, WSYR, then WSTM operated WSYE, then WETM as a "satellite station"; that is, it just rebroadcast WSTMs air signal. WSYE/WETM broke away for itis own local news at ten minutes after the our at six and eleven. It also did its own morning show at 9, but I think it was only one day a week--it was called "Monday, Monday" (because videotape was so expensive, they recorded over the same reel week after week. No copies ofthe show exist).
Newhouse, then Times-Mirrow, operated ch. 18 since 1956 (Elmira had 2 UHFs before that; one was WETV, I believe, on ch 14, in 1954; a hurricane blew the tower down, and it never went back on the air. There was also a ch. 24, that came and went in a flash, but information on that is scant).
With chemung/steuben/Schuyler/Tioga County, PA part of the Syracuse market, that made Syracuse at the time a top 50 market. When WSTM was sold in 1986 from Times-Mirror to SJL (George Lilly), I think it was, ETM was not part of the deal. That's when Syracuse dropped like a stone from market 49 or so to market 68, and Elmira became its own market, the same size as Wwatertown and Utica.
I used to have a broadcasting yearbook that shsowed Jamestown having a UHF station back in the mid-sixties. Did it make it on the air? Anyone have any info on that?
Newhouse, then Times-Mirrow, operated ch. 18 since 1956 (Elmira had 2 UHFs before that; one was WETV, I believe, on ch 14, in 1954; a hurricane blew the tower down, and it never went back on the air. There was also a ch. 24, that came and went in a flash, but information on that is scant).
With chemung/steuben/Schuyler/Tioga County, PA part of the Syracuse market, that made Syracuse at the time a top 50 market. When WSTM was sold in 1986 from Times-Mirror to SJL (George Lilly), I think it was, ETM was not part of the deal. That's when Syracuse dropped like a stone from market 49 or so to market 68, and Elmira became its own market, the same size as Wwatertown and Utica.
I used to have a broadcasting yearbook that shsowed Jamestown having a UHF station back in the mid-sixties. Did it make it on the air? Anyone have any info on that?
Thanks for info about Jamestown. I use to live in Ithaca(no, it's not the city of evil as naysayers will claim it to be) and we were between Syracuse and Binghamton, so we use cable to get channels out of Syracuse cause the antenna didn't always work...this was in the late 80s/early 90s. If Ithaca had 100,000+ people, I'm sure it'd be its own market too.
About Utica's 4, I think here at Radio-Info earlier this year talked about how it was supposed to be a CBS station, but it never happened.
About Utica's 4, I think here at Radio-Info earlier this year talked about how it was supposed to be a CBS station, but it never happened.
A
anoldguy
Guest
About Utica's 4, I think here at Radio-Info earlier this year talked about how it was supposed to be a CBS station, but it never happened.
Yes, the family that owned WIBX was supposed to take out a channel in Utica in the late 40's or early 50's. It never happend. That would have been the fableled CBS televsion channel in Utica. But I don't know if that is actually true or even if it was channel 4. Has anyone ever applied for channel 4?
Yes, the family that owned WIBX was supposed to take out a channel in Utica in the late 40's or early 50's. It never happend. That would have been the fableled CBS televsion channel in Utica. But I don't know if that is actually true or even if it was channel 4. Has anyone ever applied for channel 4?
Could it be a matter of interference on channel 4?
I'm not an engineer, so I don't know the actual frequencies off the top of my head. I do know WKTV had to move its transmitter from the Smith Hill tower to someplace near Herkimer when channel 3 came on the air in Syracuse, because of interference between channels 2 and 3. Is the same kind of problem possible if you have a channel 3 that close to a channel 4?
There must be SOME reason... if channel 4 was still an option for Utica, I'm surprised WUTR passed it up to go with a UHF channel.
I'm not an engineer, so I don't know the actual frequencies off the top of my head. I do know WKTV had to move its transmitter from the Smith Hill tower to someplace near Herkimer when channel 3 came on the air in Syracuse, because of interference between channels 2 and 3. Is the same kind of problem possible if you have a channel 3 that close to a channel 4?
There must be SOME reason... if channel 4 was still an option for Utica, I'm surprised WUTR passed it up to go with a UHF channel.
BobRoss said:
The channel 4 assignment is relatively recent - early 1990s? Something like that. The assignment didn't exist when WUTR was built. It's now gone; I know of no pending applications for the channel, and all unused allotments were deleted when DTV came along. Strangely enough I don't recall anyone ever applying for channel 4 - especially strange as someone had to petition the FCC to get it assigned, an action that would have involved legal & engineering expenses...
Under the old analog rules, for a channel to be allotted, a site must exist where a full-power (100kw/300m) transmitter could be built without interfering with any existing service, while still delivering a "principal community contour" signal to the city of license. It's possible in this case the assignment was site-restricted to the east of Utica - indeed that's quite probable. Yes, there was some separation required between channels 3 and 4. The only adjacent pairs not subject to restrictions are 4/5, 6/7, and 13/14, in all cases because there are large gaps in the spectrum between these channels.
My 1966 Yearbook doesn't list any stations in Jamestown, nor does it list any applications for new stations there. No indication of a past transfer of control of a then-dark Jamestown station either. I would suggest no station operated there in the 1960s. There may well have been one in the 1950s, shortly after UHF was opened up: a lot of these didn't last much more than a year, and vanished without a trace.
The 1966 YB does show channels 48 (commercial) and 54 (educational) as assigned to Jamestown. In the original 1952 assignments, channel 58 (commercial)
is the only one in Jamestown.
C
chuckydoll
Guest
Jamestown = Buffalo DMA
Time Warner Jamestown carries all the Buffalo OTA stations plus WICU-12 (NBC) and WSEE-35 (CBS) from Erie. WSEE looks out of place in Jamestown; it has to carry Buffalo Bills away games, which can get all those Pittsburgh Steelers fans in northwest PA very angry.
BobRoss said:
Time Warner Jamestown carries all the Buffalo OTA stations plus WICU-12 (NBC) and WSEE-35 (CBS) from Erie. WSEE looks out of place in Jamestown; it has to carry Buffalo Bills away games, which can get all those Pittsburgh Steelers fans in northwest PA very angry.
A
AMonFM
Guest
I thought Jamestown did have a full-power UHF back in the 50's/60's... a relay of Ch. 2 Buffalo on Ch. 26.
K
KML0224
Guest
As for channel 3 causing interference with channel 4 (analog), would there have been any issues with PBS channel 3 from Clearfield, PA? I know that's the PBS station in the Johnstown/Altoona market. As for channel 4 itself, I'm guessing that Utica is far enough away from Buffalo (WIVB-TV) and New York City (WNBC-TV) to where that wouldn't have been an issue?
The WGR-TV translator in Jamestown was on channel 6; there are old TV Guide ads from the late fifties-early sixties for WGR that promote "2" and "6" in equal size.
There was also a commercial channel 26 there in the late sixties-early seventies, owned by none other than Lowell "Bud" Paxson, who also owned WKSN radio back then. It didn't last, and the channel went dormant before being reactivated as WNYB-TV in the nineties.
As for Elmira, it actually had a VHF allotment once upon a time. Channel 9 was to have gone there, and I'm pretty sure that there was even a CP issued there for WTVE, though it later was moved to 24 to allow 9 to go to Syracuse as part of the big upstate shuffle in '62.
I don't have the population numbers readily to hand, but Elmira/Corning and Utica/Rome were considerably larger (and much more thriving, economically) back then.
A few other cities in the region could have ended up as separate TV markets if things had gone differently. Ithaca had a CP for a commercial channel 20 (WHCU-TV) and a noncomm on 14; Williamsport had a station on the air back in the late fifties, as did Lock Haven just down the road.; even Kingston had WKNY-TV on channel 66, which could have developed into something bigger, but didn't. So many "might have been"s...
There was also a commercial channel 26 there in the late sixties-early seventies, owned by none other than Lowell "Bud" Paxson, who also owned WKSN radio back then. It didn't last, and the channel went dormant before being reactivated as WNYB-TV in the nineties.
As for Elmira, it actually had a VHF allotment once upon a time. Channel 9 was to have gone there, and I'm pretty sure that there was even a CP issued there for WTVE, though it later was moved to 24 to allow 9 to go to Syracuse as part of the big upstate shuffle in '62.
I don't have the population numbers readily to hand, but Elmira/Corning and Utica/Rome were considerably larger (and much more thriving, economically) back then.
A few other cities in the region could have ended up as separate TV markets if things had gone differently. Ithaca had a CP for a commercial channel 20 (WHCU-TV) and a noncomm on 14; Williamsport had a station on the air back in the late fifties, as did Lock Haven just down the road.; even Kingston had WKNY-TV on channel 66, which could have developed into something bigger, but didn't. So many "might have been"s...
B
Bob1370
Guest
"The WGR-TV translator in Jamestown was on channel 6; there are old TV Guide ads from the late fifties-early sixties for WGR that promote "2" and "6" in equal size. There was also a commercial channel 26 there in the late sixties-early seventies, owned by none other than Lowell "Bud" Paxson, who also owned WKSN radio back then. It didn't last, and the channel went dormant before being reactivated as WNYB-TV in the nineties."
That was an interesting operation. Back about 1967 Jamestown's Ch. 26, then operating with the WNYP callsign, tried at first to operate as an indie and even had a local talk show for a couple hours every day, hosted by the late Mike Spears, aka Hal Martin, later of CKLW in Detroit/Windsor, WPLP in Tampa and KLIF in Dallas. They built a big studio building and a transmitter tower on one of the highest points in the city, which still housed WKSN and its FM sister on 93.3 long after the TV went dark. They were even making it for a while because they came upon the unique prime time programming strategy of affiliating with the Canadian CTV network and carrying all that network's programming except their 11 PM national news, which they replaced with a local newscast. (I don't know how they got the feed--maybe an over-the-air pickup from CFTO in Toronto or CKCO in Kitchener, both of which they could have pulled in with a good antenna and amp from their studio site.)
That ended about two years after they signed on, when the FCC came in and told them affiliation with a foreign network was a violation of federal rules and regs and they'd have to stop. I don't know if that was a new rule, or a long-standing one they disregarded or weren't aware of. But it meant WNYP couldn't go on because they couldn't afford to buy prime time programming and couldn't convince a US network to affiliate with them. (The big 3 of the time considered Jamestown part of the Buffalo ADI and didn't want to break their deals with channels 2, 4 and 7. And Fox wouldn't launch for another 20 years). So they went dark within months after having to say goodbye to CTV. The channel 26 allocation went empty until the religious network that now runs it, sold off its interest in Channel 49 in Buffalo and rebuilt 26 with a TL in northern Chautaqua County that could cover Buffalo and Jamestown and rimshot-cover Erie from one location.
WNYP during its short life actually tried to give the Southern Tier a genuine local/regional service; too bad they couldn't find a way to survive. WNYB may have a transmitter there but their programming doesn't pay the slightest attention to regional issues or needs.
That was an interesting operation. Back about 1967 Jamestown's Ch. 26, then operating with the WNYP callsign, tried at first to operate as an indie and even had a local talk show for a couple hours every day, hosted by the late Mike Spears, aka Hal Martin, later of CKLW in Detroit/Windsor, WPLP in Tampa and KLIF in Dallas. They built a big studio building and a transmitter tower on one of the highest points in the city, which still housed WKSN and its FM sister on 93.3 long after the TV went dark. They were even making it for a while because they came upon the unique prime time programming strategy of affiliating with the Canadian CTV network and carrying all that network's programming except their 11 PM national news, which they replaced with a local newscast. (I don't know how they got the feed--maybe an over-the-air pickup from CFTO in Toronto or CKCO in Kitchener, both of which they could have pulled in with a good antenna and amp from their studio site.)
That ended about two years after they signed on, when the FCC came in and told them affiliation with a foreign network was a violation of federal rules and regs and they'd have to stop. I don't know if that was a new rule, or a long-standing one they disregarded or weren't aware of. But it meant WNYP couldn't go on because they couldn't afford to buy prime time programming and couldn't convince a US network to affiliate with them. (The big 3 of the time considered Jamestown part of the Buffalo ADI and didn't want to break their deals with channels 2, 4 and 7. And Fox wouldn't launch for another 20 years). So they went dark within months after having to say goodbye to CTV. The channel 26 allocation went empty until the religious network that now runs it, sold off its interest in Channel 49 in Buffalo and rebuilt 26 with a TL in northern Chautaqua County that could cover Buffalo and Jamestown and rimshot-cover Erie from one location.
WNYP during its short life actually tried to give the Southern Tier a genuine local/regional service; too bad they couldn't find a way to survive. WNYB may have a transmitter there but their programming doesn't pay the slightest attention to regional issues or needs.
RE: ch. 4 in Utica:
I heard from a Syr engineer once that yes, "someone once figured out how to squeeze in a ch. 4", and that same person remarked that ch. 5 would not have liked that! That's because it would have been another CBS affiliate.
I don't think ch. 2 WKTV moved its transmitter when ch. 3 went on the air. I don't know when WKTV went to ch. 2, but it used to be on ch. 13, when it went on the air in 1949. At that time, ch. 3/Syracuse was actually on ch. 5! (and WROC Rochester was still on ch. 6, and WRGB Schenectady was still on ch. 4). So...I think WKTV moved it's Xmiitter to where it is now, when it moved down the dial to ch. 2, to fit in the signal between NYC and Buffalo.
RE: Ch. 9 in Elmira/WTVE...
WTVE were the calls of that other Elmira station which I could not recall, on ch. 24, on which little info is available ( it was on the air BEFORE ch. 18/WSYE was put on in 1956)...
And I've also heard that ch. 9 was available also to WHCU/Cornell University, but that Cornell would have had to put WHCU-TV on as an ABC affil, and did not want to do that, because then they'd have to drop their long-standing affiliation with CBS radio. That's what I have heard.
I heard from a Syr engineer once that yes, "someone once figured out how to squeeze in a ch. 4", and that same person remarked that ch. 5 would not have liked that! That's because it would have been another CBS affiliate.
I don't think ch. 2 WKTV moved its transmitter when ch. 3 went on the air. I don't know when WKTV went to ch. 2, but it used to be on ch. 13, when it went on the air in 1949. At that time, ch. 3/Syracuse was actually on ch. 5! (and WROC Rochester was still on ch. 6, and WRGB Schenectady was still on ch. 4). So...I think WKTV moved it's Xmiitter to where it is now, when it moved down the dial to ch. 2, to fit in the signal between NYC and Buffalo.
RE: Ch. 9 in Elmira/WTVE...
WTVE were the calls of that other Elmira station which I could not recall, on ch. 24, on which little info is available ( it was on the air BEFORE ch. 18/WSYE was put on in 1956)...
And I've also heard that ch. 9 was available also to WHCU/Cornell University, but that Cornell would have had to put WHCU-TV on as an ABC affil, and did not want to do that, because then they'd have to drop their long-standing affiliation with CBS radio. That's what I have heard.
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