The course you took a few years ago said WECK would not go anywhere. The course I took made me a station owner with a top 10 local station. Stop thinking this is 1985. The methodology is outdated. Who do you think talks to Nielsen more, you or me ?
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January book is out
- Thread starter ckg279
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You run your business your way. That's your right, because it's your business and you own it. Same with Nielsen. They own their business and they run it their want. If you don't like how Nielsen works, you can commission your own survey. There are other research companies that do the same thing as Nielsen. Unfortunately for you, most of them do it the same way, polling a representative group of people, and then weighting the sample to make the results fit the demographics of the population. But at least you'd get a competing poll that you would control. I think if you did your own poll, you'd see that you're wrong when you say people 12 to 30 don't listen to radio. They do. Not the same way people over 50 listen, but they listen, and that's not based on an assumption. There is research that shows young people listen to radio. But they probably don't listen to WECK.
You don't compete against minority owned stations in Buffalo, do you? Name all the female or black station owners in Buffalo.
BTW most public radio stations pay for Nielsen so they can see the full demographic report. They don't care about getting listed in the free 12+ release. They want to know the details about who listens to their station, and they can only get that by paying. I don't understand why you care so much about the 12+ list. It doesn't matter to anyone. You should focus on serving your demo, and doing what KOAI does and show how they're #1 in all the important areas.
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Here's the latest Facebook post from John Sebastian, PD of KOAI in Phoenix. Like WECK, John programs oldies. Like WECK, John pays for Nielsen. And Phoenix is a PPM market, so he pays more than you, and is now doing very good in the 6+. But the difference is John doesn't care about the 6+ numbers and doesn't get hung up on weighting. Here's what he says:
Do you see and understand the difference? I bet you have very similar numbers.
Do you see and understand the difference? I bet you have very similar numbers.
This returns to a common theme across the country. Radio CAN program formats that will attract an audience. They usually choose not to because the demos will be 55+. The "experts" say there is no money in old demos.
I have no idea if the WOW Factor makes money. WECK must be doing quite well as they are still in business.
Corporate Radio could decide to try formats that would actually get an audience. Instead, they roll out junk like WBUF and The Wolf. The results don't lie. When the decision makers no longer care if the product sucks, it's no wonder that the public is indifferent. I know many people who haven't listened to Radio in over 15 years(except for NPR and some independent stations)...
The "experts" are called, in this case, "advertisers".
For decades, agency accounts have targeted somewhere within the confines of 18 to 54 in radio. Very few ad buys come up for anything over 55. If they do, they are likely things like "45-64" or something that includes a whole lot of under-55 demos and little above it.
Companies like CBS-TV have, for nearly 20 years, been trying to get TV buys to move from 18-49 to 25-64. There have done joint calls with agency and client representatives to hear the pitch, but there has been little change.
WOW Factor is part of a cluster, and it seems to bill about 25% of the level of each of the other two stations in the cluster.
If the audience you get is not what advertisers want, then there is no profit. In smaller markets, stations appealing to older demos can sometimes do well with non-agency accounts and a few local agency ones. But the bigger the market, the harder it is to find non-agency accounts that can afford a radio campaign to reach out of demo listeners.
Keep in mind that radio is an advertising medium. If there are no advertisers seeking our audience, there is no revenue no matter how many listeners we have.
Yet 79% of all adults do use radio. There have always been non-users; nothing new.
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*was this ↑ a pre-stopset tease?
As to the 55+ numbers, the WOW accomplishments are laudable, but more than likely, given the published music playlists, the concentration of listeners is actually 60+ with a 'pig in the snake' 65+. If those demos generate revenue in that market, dandy. If not, well, it's just puffery. But 'dandy' is what the business is all about: turning ratings into revenue.
I hit "post reply" by accident. The response is now complete...*was this ↑ a pre-stopset tease?
Exactly. And, in the three station cluster that the WOW owners have, each of the other two out-bills by four to one.
We have almost the exact same rankings, except ours go down to 50 plus. That is our demo, and we are very strong in it. All I know is I get advances of quarter hour listening every month before the book comes out, and it's mainly always in the 4 and 5 shares, 12 plus, and by the time the fake ratings do their voodoo math, it's all different.
John is a PD, not an owner. As an owner, I get frustrated. Let's face it, the system is old. Many times people who get diaries do not even send them back, and if they do, they fill out last minute. They do not fill out how it was designed to do. They fill out a few pages of what they remember on the last day, if they send in at all.
Also, the diaries are random. One week diaries could go the Niagara Falls where WECK is not powerful, another week they can go to Amherst, of Hamburg, which are big strongholds.
I realize this is the only system we have. That's why I subscribe. If i knew we only had a 1 share going into my Nielsen contract, I would never subscribe. If anything WECK diaries are under-reported because of weighting.
The kicker is what I see written is the diaries. Total BS. People have no idea what they are writing, what they are listening to, they refer to stations in all kinds of ways. I actually see written "Rock 102" "We listen to Oldies on WECK and WHTT" "We love the Oldies music on WBEN" "They think XRL is a Polka Station", and they mention stations like WSPQ that have not been around in 5 years.......how is this accurate? People ALL THE TIME refer to Breeze as JOY. Many say "we don't listen to radio because of too much talking, too many commercials, so they listen to XM. There have actually been several people who say "We love what local owner Buddy Shula is doing at WYRK, and mention they listen to me there. I have not been on YRK for 25 years!
How am I supposed to take this stuff seriously?? They also say the love the Sandy Beach show on WECK, because Sandy does many endorsement spots for us.
The bottom like, it is far away from an exact science
Sounds to me like the problem isn't Nielsen, but the problem is the people. The Nielsen system is transparent. You can see the numbers. But the people are the weakness. Which is why Nielsen prefers the PPM. But it's too expensive for Buffalo. Nielsen can't change their system because the subscribers will scream. So they keep the diaries and you scream.
WUFO: Shelia Brown
WXRL: Joanie Shriver
WLVL: Dick Greene (although rumor of Bill Yunke buying, and Bill will get screwed by the system just like me. 2 white guys)
WEBR: Bill Yunke
Catholic Radio = Tax Free/Donations
NPR= Tax Free/Donations
WECK = Top 10 Buffalo station (1KW), with owner getting taxed up the ass, has to pay for Nielsen, pays 10K per month in payroll tax alone. We are in the top 2 of all of these areas KOAI is, but we should be #1. We are not getting the credit for our listeners thanks to the rigged Nielsen system.
You're focusing on two stations to prove your point, but you ignore the context. Both of those stations are owned by companies that have extremely successful stations. When you own five stations, not all of them are going to be Top 5. In fact, if they are, you're controlling too much of the market, and you'll be forced to sell one of the stations. Those are the crazy ownership rules that radio operates under.
So in every market where these companies operate, you'll probably see one station that's the designated loser. That's just how it is. Meanwhile they have several stations in the Top 5. If you have five kids, not all of them will be brilliant certified geniuses. One might end up in radio. What's wrong with having a station that appeals to a small audience IF you can afford it?
Simple solution. Form a non-profit, donate WECK to the non-profit, and operate as a charity. Take donations from your audience. No law against it. You might make more money, and you'll be doing what your listeners want instead of what the advertisers want.
"Rigged" seems to be the operative word these days. Elections, business, education, society, oil prices, the economy ... all "rigged."
Might as well say life is "rigged." Nobody gets out alive. [/sarcasm]
Might as well say life is "rigged." Nobody gets out alive. [/sarcasm]
You make a valid point about Radio listening. Many people have no idea what they're listening to. They barely pay attention. The content is not compelling and is just background noise.
Buddy claims he would prefer PPM. He would not like the results at all. He would then rail against that system. The PPM would not accurately report WECK due to technical difficulties. His 5 share guarantee still hasn't happened so it must be Nielsen's fault...
How can you say "the content is not compelling?" It's their favorite music. They chose that station because it plays their favorite songs. So it's not the content. It's the users. Let's just say it: People are not very smart. It has nothing to do with the content. You can give them compelling, and they'll shut it off because they don't want to be compelled. It happens all the time. Compelling to one person is annoying to another. That's just how it is in the world of popular taste.
Perhaps a little on-air promotion would be a good idea. "We're glad that you're listening to us. Remember ... we're W-E-C-K" or something similar. I've heard similar promos on other stations .... "If anyone asks, you're listening to WECK."
OK. So people are stupid and can't remember what station to write in the diary. That's not Nielsen's fault. It's also possible that most Radio content is not worth remembering...
That's your opinion. Once again, people CHOOSE to tune into a station. And most of the content is their favorite music.
Radio people believe the sun rises and sets on their stations, their shows and their commercials. Listeners aren't dumb or stupid. They're simply not as focused on the radio as much as DJs, PDs and GMs wish they were. It's not 1992. Brand awareness is an ongoing battle, and the challenge isn't exclusive to radio. The battle is fought daily across the board, from television to toothpaste. We live in an on-demand world at hyper speed. There are more distractions and alternative sources of entertainment and information than ever before. Consumers are constantly bombarded with visual and aural messages, so much so they're often difficult to discern. Attention spans are adversely affected. Music radio formats are background entertainment. Messages need to be relevant, informative, compelling, topical or humorous, and packaged well. In diary driven ratings, some stations get three correct shares of recognition out of a potential 100, others get 8 or 9. It's the job of promotions directors, PD and DJs to improve and maximize the correct shares of recognition. It's not an easy task.
I disagree. Radio people know the reality. They live it every day. That's partly why they've changed the title of their PDs to "brand manager." They know they have to create and reinforce a brand that people will remember. And for the most part, they're successful in doing that, at least for the Top 5 stations in town. Building a brand takes time, but the people doing it know how tough the job is. They see the results every month, and their jobs depend on whether or not they're successful.
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