Jeny flips again!

[brokentuner]

Does anybody really care about call letters anymore? Probably not. Most stations just use a branding label - The Fan, The Fish, The Lake, etc..

This was going to be my point. People like us are sadly the only ones who even notice. The few under 40 year olds still listening to the radio have no idea what call letters are or mean.

 

[Tim]

The problem is that WNWV is a stand-alone in the Cleveland market with a rimshot signal 20 miles to the west of Cleveland. They can’t compete with the big chains in terms of economy of scale, let alone with a format that can’t bill to save its life.

Sadly, real. (I did radio advertising sales for nearly 3 decades. That format is a very tough sell. Agree with Nathan).

 

[Tim]

Probably the two biggest problems in what's left of the radio business these days:

1) Radio revenues are shrinking year-on-year, which in turn, causes management to continously find expenses to cut. They took a current WONE expense and simply transfered it to WNWV, replacing the WONE opening with someone who sounds less expensive.

2) Things are so tight revenue wise, that stations no longer give enough gestation period to anything....a format, a host.....anything. Especially in this era of many alternatives to radio, it takes even longer than it used to in order for people to discover something or somebody new on radio. The powers at be either won't --- or can't ---- give anything proper time to grow and get established.

Unfortunately very true. Reality.

 

[skiwest]

The problem is that WNWV is a stand-alone in the Cleveland market with a rimshot signal 20 miles to the west of Cleveland. They can’t compete with the big chains in terms of economy of scale, let alone with a format that can’t bill to save its life.

I'm not sure I would call WNWV a rimshot. Perhaps they don't get to the far eastern suburbs as well, but I was in University Heights recently and they were booming in on my car radio. And when I lived in Garfield Hts years ago, it was also booming in.

 

[davideduardo]

I'm not sure I would call WNWV a rimshot. Perhaps they don't get to the far eastern suburbs as well, but I was in University Heights recently and they were booming in on my car radio. And when I lived in Garfield Hts years ago, it was also booming in.

It has nearly no indoor signal anywhere to the east of University Circle and Little Italy, although it's OK in cars out as far as maybe University Heights or a bit farther. It misses the huge population to the east, including all of Lake and Geauga counties. Altogether, they miss about 30% of the market.

But it is not a rimshot... it is licensed inside the market, just way to the far western area.

 

[Yabadabado1]

It has nearly no indoor signal anywhere to the east of University Circle and Little Italy, although it's OK in cars out as far as maybe University Heights or a bit farther. It misses the huge population to the east, including all of Lake and Geauga counties. Altogether, they miss about 30% of the market.

But it is not a rimshot... it is licensed inside the market, just way to the far western area.

if it's that hard to pick up in the Eastern counties [maps showing that around Mentor, etc. is on the distant to fringe area] and it's supposed to be a market they have coverage in] could they not apply for a repeater in far eastern Cuyahoga county to provide listeners points east access to the station....assuming there's an open frequency they could use. Or would RCRG just say "What? Spend money? Ehhhhh.......just listen to our streaming website."
I remember when I worked out in the boondocks at WDMT [pre-DMT was known as WNOB, now WENZ], the signal in southeastern Medina/south western Summit counties was scratchy/picket fencing to the point it was intolerable. Inside a building, forget it. One of the engineers said it was because antenna tower was short AND there was some ridge to the west that they had trouble getting the signal over. And looking at Google maps, it appears the antenna is now off to the side of the building instead of behind it and it appears to be quite taller then when it was behind it.

 

[johnbasalla]

Sadly, real. (I did radio advertising sales for nearly 3 decades. That format is a very tough sell. Agree with Nathan).

Well, which tough format to sell is tougher, Alternative Rock or Smooth Jazz? I guess the answer is Smooth Jazz even though, I think, it attracts a diverse group of more wealthy people who have money to spend, but they might be considered too old, and therefore, not spend as much.

 

[fybush]

if it's that hard to pick up in the Eastern counties [maps showing that around Mentor, etc. is on the distant to fringe area] and it's supposed to be a market they have coverage in] could they not apply for a repeater in far eastern Cuyahoga county to provide listeners points east access to the station....assuming there's an open frequency they could use.

Short answer: no

Longer answer: it's really not that easy. The best options available to 107.3 would be to buy another full-power FM signal to extend the reach of its format to the east. But there aren't many of those (93.7, 104.7) and they don't come cheap.

A translator isn't really a solution for extending the reach of a commerical FM station - even if a frequency were available (and it's not), it would have to be a "fill-in" translator that's not allowed to extend past the main station's protected contour. For WNWV, that gets you about half of 271. Once you're north of Beachwood, you're outside that contour.

And you can't really effectively move the 107.3 facility eastward, because you start bumping up against 106.9 in Canton.

That 107.3 signal is as much as it will ever be.

 

[skiwest]

if it's that hard to pick up in the Eastern counties [maps showing that around Mentor, etc. is on the distant to fringe area] and it's supposed to be a market they have coverage in] could they not apply for a repeater in far eastern Cuyahoga county to provide listeners points east access to the station....assuming there's an open frequency they could use.

Instead of a repeater on another frequency, could they add a "booster" to the 107.3 signal to reach listeners on the east side of Cleveland? WKSU just did that recently.

 

[skiwest]

Well, which tough format to sell is tougher, Alternative Rock or Smooth Jazz? I guess the answer is Smooth Jazz even though, I think, it attracts a diverse group of more wealthy people who have money to spend, but they might be considered too old, and therefore, not spend as much.

Yeah, those old folks only buy hearing aid batteries and incontinence products. But seriously, when 107.3 was smooth jazz, I used to hear it in various places that I went to - stores, offices, etc. And by the way, looking at the ratings for Cleveland radio, the stations at the top always seem to be those that attract older listeners. Advertisers need to wake up and realize it is mostly older people that listen to radio now.

 

[davideduardo]

Yeah, those old folks only buy hearing aid batteries and incontinence products. But seriously, when 107.3 was smooth jazz, I used to hear it in various places that I went to - stores, offices, etc. And by the way, looking at the ratings for Cleveland radio, the stations at the top always seem to be those that attract older listeners. Advertisers need to wake up and realize it is mostly older people that listen to radio now.

Over 35 is not "older". When we talk about "older" in radio we mean "over 55" because nearly no agency buys look for anything older. OTOH, local direct is not so age-conscious and local agency buys may look for audiences up to 65 for some accounts.

So, "older" means over 55 and in some cases, over 65.

 

[Santa fe]

Over 35 is not "older". When we talk about "older" in radio we mean "over 55" because nearly no agency buys look for anything older. OTOH, local direct is not so age-conscious and local agency buys may look for audiences up to 65 for some accounts.

So, "older" means over 55 and in some cases, over 65.

A WDMT alumni! You're spot on about 107.9's signal problems. When it was first on the air it was a class C with over 300,000 watts erp and a 16 bay antenna!
The signal sailed clean over Cleveland and could be heard as far west as Chicago!
Then they halved the number of bays and lowered to 70kw but still the signal couldn't clear Mayfield hill.
It wasn't Beasley, I don't think, but some owner moved out of the building and built a new and taller tower just south on the trucking company land at 87 and Sperry and went down to a class B and a much lower erp and that improved things.
You can actually see the tower light from the heights looking due east.
By the way, the old WDMT/WPHR/WENZ/WELW/WNOB building is now a church. Somehow that seems fitting.

 

[fybush]

Instead of a repeater on another frequency, could they add a "booster" to the 107.3 signal to reach listeners on the east side of Cleveland? WKSU just did that recently.

The limitation on boosters is the same as on non-fill-in translators: the contour of the booster can't extend past the protected contour of the primary signal. So you still can't do anything useful that would go northeast of Beachwood.

The other problem with boosters over flat terrain is self-interference. The booster has to be very carefully designed and situated to minimize interfering with the main signal. There's enough 107.3 signal on the near east side to make that a big challenge.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

The limitation on boosters is the same as on non-fill-in translators: the contour of the booster can't extend past the protected contour of the primary signal. So you still can't do anything useful that would go northeast of Beachwood.

The other problem with boosters over flat terrain is self-interference. The booster has to be very carefully designed and situated to minimize interfering with the main signal. There's enough 107.3 signal on the near east side to make that a big challenge.

That interference is one reason WDDH-1 no longer exists. When you climbed out of the bowl that was DuBois, 97.5 became staticy mush. Plus, when WDDH-1 would go off (it happened a few times in 4 years) wed only ever get one call each time.. from the same lady. So combine all THAT with the fact it didnt help us with sales and didnt help the signal that much, and was costing us money..... it got turned in and del;eted

 

[fybush]

That interference is one reason WDDH-1 no longer exists. When you climbed out of the bowl that was DuBois, 97.5 became staticy mush. Plus, when WDDH-1 would go off (it happened a few times in 4 years) wed only ever get one call each time.. from the same lady. So combine all THAT with the fact it didnt help us with sales and didnt help the signal that much, and was costing us money..... it got turned in and del;eted

Pretty sure we've had this conversation before.

You can't really compare the new generation of boosters to what you had at WDDH.

It's much easier now to precisely synchronize a booster's audio to the main channel audio, and to match frequency precisely, thanks to GPS.

That doesn't completely eliminate the possibility of self-interference, but it reduces it a LOT.

I've had the chance to hear new boosters in Boston and other markets and it's a definite game-changer compared to the technology you probably had at WDDH.

Don't knock it until you've experienced it.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

Pretty sure we've had this conversation before.

You can't really compare the new generation of boosters to what you had at WDDH.

It's much easier now to precisely synchronize a booster's audio to the main channel audio, and to match frequency precisely, thanks to GPS.

That doesn't completely eliminate the possibility of self-interference, but it reduces it a LOT.

I've had the chance to hear new boosters in Boston and other markets and it's a definite game-changer compared to the technology you probably had at WDDH.

Don't knock it until you've experienced it.

i dont think we did but ive also not been able to sample some of this new booster technology.. would be interesting

 

[Yabadabado1]

Short answer: no

Longer answer: it's really not that easy. The best options available to 107.3 would be to buy another full-power FM signal to extend the reach of its format to the east. But there aren't many of those (93.7, 104.7) and they don't come cheap.

A translator isn't really a solution for extending the reach of a commerical FM station - even if a frequency were available (and it's not), it would have to be a "fill-in" translator that's not allowed to extend past the main station's protected contour. For WNWV, that gets you about half of 271. Once you're north of Beachwood, you're outside that contour.

And you can't really effectively move the 107.3 facility eastward, because you start bumping up against 106.9 in Canton.

That 107.3 signal is as much as it will ever be.

Never really had translators or repeaters to deal with decades ago [as far as I know] as much as they do today so I never really paid attention to signal limitations, etc. as it "wasn't my job".

 

[Yabadabado1]

By the way, the old WDMT/WPHR/WENZ/WELW/WNOB building is now a church. Somehow that seems fitting.

I thought, at one point, they had their own station [or maybe a repeater of one] because in prior Google street map images I saw a sign promoting the station but in the latest Google image, I don't see it anymore. And I believe that Beasley sold it to Ardman Broadcasting in the late 80s.

 

[Santa fe]

The pastor of the church in the old WNOB/WELW/WDMT, etc., building did have his own preaching show that originated from Salem 1220 here and was distributed nationwide and may still be. Perhaps he did the show from that building, although it is mainly offices and worship space for his church.
The radio studios were originally in the basement. Ted Alexander and WELW moved them upstairs in 1970 and they were redone at least once in 1978 when Beasley had it. After Radio One moved the studios downtown, the building was home to the Middlefield Cheese Company (also rather fitting) but the church has been there for some time now.
By the way, the building is haunted. I know, I experienced it directly. Perhaps someday around the campfire I'll share the story with you!

 

[MediaLover]

107.9 FM moved to Downtown Cleveland in the building across from Playhouse Square back in late 1988 when it was WPHR Power 108 and owned by Beasley.