July 2022 PPM 6+ Mon-Sun, 6a-12mid

[Kelly A]

Someone with access to demo breakout numbers already confrmed KJR-FM's 25 to 54 numbers are trash.

Let me see if I can make this simpler for you to understand: Most sports stations don't sell based on Nielsen ratings. Agencies buy sports radio to reach a particular demo. Whether AM or FM, KJR has never, ever, ever ranked in the top ten for ratings, even in demo. And yet, they still make money. How do you explain that?

Kelly A, you should quit trying to mislead everyone by pretending that they are anything other than lousy.

I'd say you're the one who is being misleading, just because you don't understand how selling outside of ratings works.

Sounds like you think terminating the simulcast on 950 was a smart call?

It doesn't matter what I think, nor the same for you. iHeart has a lot of smart radio people working for them. They understand the business a lot more than most people on this board. Plus, it's THEIR STATION. You can criticize and armchair this until the horse is a skeleton. and it still won't matter even two cents.

The reason I made the "don't care" comment earlier is because even if KJR-FM doesn't self identify its core target as Men 25 to 54 (I was anticipating you splicing hairs when I referred to Men 25 to 54), it will be a large subset of that category.

I haven't worked there in years, but was there through the beginning of sports on the station. During those 14 years, KJR's target demo was; M18-49. I'd say they have a much better chance of reaching that demo in current times on FM, than AM, wouldn't you?

Poor performance in that area over the long term = relatively weak ad rates.

In what area? As I've said many times; Agencies buy sports for the demo access, not just based on rating share. You don't need to be top five in the demo to make good money doing sports.

David's example of WFAN is a very good one.

NYC is a much larger market with less sports stations dooking it out.

 

[MarkW]

I haven't worked there in years, but was there through the beginning of sports on the station. During those 14 years, KJR's target demo was; M18-49. I'd say they have a much better chance of reaching that demo in current times on FM, than AM, wouldn't you?

Of course I do; I was an early advocate of flipping 93.3 to Sports for that very reason (among others).

Still, there is no reason to prematurely upset the apple cart by discontinuing the programming on 950 so soon, in my opinion.

Whether AM or FM, KJR has never, ever, ever ranked in the top ten for ratings, even in demo. And yet, they still make money.

I think it is highly unlikely that they have never, ever, ever ranked top ten in Men 18-49 or Men 25-54.

How do you make money with weak ratings? Let's see - (a) keeping costs low, (b) partnering with hosts / teams / etc. that certain well-heeled individuals wish to patronize financially and (c) accounting gimmickry with regard to corporate overhead allocation (I'm not necessarily suggesting that's occurring in this specific case). Of course, success stories of existing advertisers who've partnered with the station can help. I also suspect - especially now - that 93.3 is sold as part of multi-station packages (KZOK obviously pairs nicely).

 

[davideduardo]

Let me see if I can make this simpler for you to understand: Most sports stations don't sell based on Nielsen ratings. Agencies buy sports radio to reach a particular demo. Whether AM or FM, KJR has never, ever, ever ranked in the top ten for ratings, even in demo. And yet, they still make money. How do you explain that?

Another example: KLAC is around 26th to 28th in 25-54 ratings. It is in the market's top 10 in revenue, beating stations like KNX, KLOS, KSCA, KTWV, Power, KCBS and KRRL.

I'd say you're the one who is being misleading, just because you don't understand how selling outside of ratings works.

Much of the sports revenue comes from "Marketing" budgets, not ad budgets. It's a whole different segment that music stations have no access to. It's about "environment".

It doesn't matter what I think, nor the same for you. iHeart has a lot of smart radio people working for them. They understand the business a lot more than most people on this board. Plus, it's THEIR STATION. You can criticize and armchair this until the horse is a skeleton. and it still won't matter even two cents.

And you can bet they did a lot of analysis and even research, at both listener and client levels.

I haven't worked there in years, but was there through the beginning of sports on the station. During those 14 years, KJR's target demo was; M18-49. I'd say they have a much better chance of reaching that demo in current times on FM, than AM, wouldn't you?

And that is, of course, asking the obvious.

In what area? As I've said many times; Agencies buy sports for the demo access, not just based on rating share. You don't need to be top five in the demo to make good money doing sports.

And they buy it for the association to teams and events that are core to the lifestyle of sports listeners. This is why car dealers used to buy more ads in the Sports section of newspapers than in the entertainment or local news sections: advertising in the right environment can and does make a big difference.

NYC is a much larger market with less sports stations dooking it out.

Which also explains the reason for going "cold turkey" onto FM. It's a future play which is also very salable even now.

 

[davideduardo]

How do you make money with weak ratings? Let's see - (a) keeping costs low, (b) partnering with hosts / teams / etc. that certain well-heeled individuals wish to patronize financially and (c) accounting gimmickry with regard to corporate overhead allocation (I'm not necessarily suggesting that's occurring in this specific case). Of course, success stories of existing advertisers who've partnered with the station can help. I also suspect - especially now - that 93.3 is sold as part of multi-station packages (KZOK obviously pairs nicely).

Back to my favorite... if you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras.

In this case, sports sells with low overall ratings because it delivers men in an environment that no other format offers... an environment that requires "full volume" listening and where the listeners are highly partisan to the content and have been shown to confide in what is advertised there.

 

[MarkW]

Thanks for the insight as usual, David. Your explanation was excellent.

The active listening habits and desire of listeners to patronize businesses who share their preferences/ allegiances also explains the success of politically charged news/talk, especially in smaller markets.

The "marketing" spend is more likely to come into play when a sports radio brand offers live play by play. KJR obviously has that with the Kraken and whatever college team(s) it carries. Weren't they also the flagship for the Sonics years ago?

Personally, I get nauseous whenever a particular advertiser says "official _____ of the (insert team name here)," as if that somehow makes the value proposition better to me as a consumer. It's particularly amusing when the team in question is the Detroit Lions! LOL

 

[davideduardo]

Thanks for the insight as usual, David. Your explanation was excellent.

I appreciate that, greatly. Thanks.

But keep in mind that there are many ways to be successful in radio and related new media. You may note that BigA and I differ in opinion often, but each of us has successful and viable ideas and philosophies. Our discussions show that there is no single right way to run and program a radio station... just as there is no single kind of "good" music.

 

[fordranger797]

To be fair, KJR has greatly improved the quality of their programming over the past year or so. I prefer to listen to KIRO for their hosts and analysis when possible, but KJR is better than they used to be. There was a time where the station was a bit too much of a “boys club,” even to someone who likes sports and “guy talk.”

If iheart had anything else to put on 93.3 to address a glaring format hole, I’m sure that they would have done it. However, there wasn’t anything that stood out for that frequency, and sports talk on FM appeals to advertisers. I think it’s all part of their plan to compete, even if they don’t have the listeners that KIRO has. And as others have noted, advertisers are buying anyway.

 

[101tm]

So this discussion leaves me wondering this - how many cases are there of sports stations at the bottom of the ratings (or lower rated) that actually DON’T bill well? I get sports generally does, but I can’t see that it’s a slam dunk (no pun intended) for 25-54 men everywhere. Are there any larger market sports stations that seriously don’t do well? Would there be an example? Seems like we just hear about the ones that do.

 

[KilowattKat]

So this discussion leaves me wondering this - how many cases are there of sports stations at the bottom of the ratings (or lower rated) that actually DON’T bill well? I get sports generally does, but I can’t see that it’s a slam dunk (no pun intended) for 25-54 men everywhere. Are there any larger market sports stations that seriously don’t do well? Would there be an example? Seems like we just hear about the ones that do.

Phoenix might have that example. The market has 5 stations doing Sports. Two, KDUS and KQFN , both on AM, have very low to zero ratings. There is no way they come to billing as high as KMVP-FM, the market sports leader (that bills in the 1top 10).

KDUS and KQFN have sports talk shows that are brokered, which may be a large part of the revenue they do get.. KDUS had Phoenix Coyotes hockey at one time, which brought them revenue, but that is now on the AM side of KMVP.

 

[davideduardo]

So this discussion leaves me wondering this - how many cases are there of sports stations at the bottom of the ratings (or lower rated) that actually DON’T bill well? I get sports generally does, but I can’t see that it’s a slam dunk (no pun intended) for 25-54 men everywhere. Are there any larger market sports stations that seriously don’t do well? Would there be an example? Seems like we just hear about the ones that do.

Even Gow's horribly rated sports station in Houston apparently makes money and continues on year after year with minimal ratings.

 

[Mediafrog+]

Even Gow's horribly rated sports station in Houston apparently makes money

Gow has multiple online properties as well as the national SportsMap network which might offset any losses on the awful FM signal.

and continues on year after year with minimal ratings.

I would say that a 0.1 in 6+ definitely qualifies as “minimal”. But I would love to see the male 25-54 ranking.

 

[MarkW]

The programming on the national network is dreadfully boring. Some of it airs on a pair of crappy FM translators and an HD 2 signal in my home market.

Who is bankrolling that outfit?

 

[davideduardo]

Who is bankrolling that outfit?

Advertisers.

 

[MarkW]

Confusing choice of words on my part. I actually meant to ask - who are the investors behind that outfit?

I hear few advertisers on the national feed. There are a couple noteworthy ones, however. One of the major auto parts chains is a sponsor, for example.

 

[Kelly A]

I think it is highly unlikely that they have never, ever, ever ranked top ten in Men 18-49 or Men 25-54.

It hasn't. Even when KJR was the flagship of the Sonics.

How do you make money with weak ratings? Let's see - (a) keeping costs low,

Sports radio depends on live talk talent, which makes it difficult to keep costs low. Unless the station in mainly an ESPN affiliate, one has to still pay that talent.

partnering with hosts, teams / etc. that certain well-heeled individuals wish to patronize financially

Not sure what that means. In the case of exclusivity for carrying teams live, stations bid and pay for that. Inventory during the game is usually owned by the team or league. Majority of revenue for a station comes from pre and post game shows.
Another thing to consider; is most major market teams are requiring a bidding station to be an FM station, not AM.

and (c) accounting gimmickry with regard to corporate overhead allocation (I'm not necessarily suggesting that's occurring in this specific case).

Any corporate overhead is usually baked-into the local group/cluster as a whole, not an individual station.

Of course, success stories of existing advertisers who've partnered with the station can help. I also suspect - especially now - that 93.3 is sold as part of multi-station packages (KZOK obviously pairs nicely).

And to an extent that's true. iHeart, or any station groups tries to present a full spectrum demo menu to agencies and advertisers. As David mentioned; Sports isn't a straight ad buy based on ratings share like music stations, but a lifestyle/promotional option for those who want to reach a predominately male sports fan.

 

[The New Chico]

Another thing to consider; is most major market teams are requiring a bidding station to be an FM station, not AM.

THIS is critical re: the long-term play. Bonneville only has 1 FM in market. It is a very successful news/talk station that does preempt on Sundays for the Seahawks, but would they put the Mariners on 190 games/year if that was the requirement for the next contract? Would they be out of the running if/when the Sonics show up again?

 

[Kelly A]

THIS is critical re: the long-term play. Bonneville only has 1 FM in market. It is a very successful news/talk station that does preempt on Sundays for the Seahawks, but would they put the Mariners on 190 games/year if that was the requirement for the next contract? Would they be out of the running if/when the Sonics show up again?

If they have the financial muster, a station group may choose to bid on exclusivity for all local teams, with a reciprocal agreement with another group/station to carry whichever game on a different station during occasional overlaps. For example; if a Mariner game and Seahawks game were to overlap, chances are KIRO would farm out the Mariner's game to another signal. In theory the same could be said if the Sonics were still around, except that the same company which owned the team back in the day, also owned the flagship station, so broadcast rights were never up for bid. Of course, the Sonics will not be back in our lifetime, but that's a different story.
That said; doing broadcast rights agreements is VERY expensive, and teams would prefer the broadcast be in one place during the run of a contract period. A group that gobbles-up all the local teams would be at a disadvantage when it came to keeping all it's sports rights partners happy. And when you're only getting revenue to pay for those rights from pre and post game shows?

 

[The New Chico]

The Sonics ("Sonics") will be back in 3 years when the NBA expands to Settle and Vegas. KJR-FM will be the flagship. Kraken games will go on Jack when the two conflict.

 

[Kelly A]

The Sonics ("Sonics") will be back in 3 years when the NBA expands to Settle and Vegas.

Sonics won't be back in Seattle, for one thing because there isn't an arena to accommodate them. That includes the recently renovated 'Nature-Promise-Sustainable-Compost-Arena.' The overall width of the original building left over from the World's Fair won't accommodate the required sight lines that TV for basketball needs. That ship sailed for the last time when the Sonics left town. Another thing to consider is; expansion dilutes the other existing team values, which are through the roof since Steve Balmer paid over a $Billion for the Clippers. Remember that the NBA is made up of team owners. Expansion into more markets devalues their teams.
I do agree that if any city would be eligible for an expansion team, it will be only Las Vegas. For the reasons I already stated; doubt that will happen either.

KJR-FM will be the flagship. Kraken games will go on Jack when the two conflict.

Good Lord.

 

[MarkW]

Are Seahawks radio rights up for grabs after this season?

I searched and searched Google, and it appears the last renewal was announced at the end of 2017, meaning the agreement took effect beginning with 2018's season. At least where I live, these deals tend to last five seasons at a time.

If 2022 is indeed the last season under the current contract with KIRO AM & FM, I have to believe iHM will make a very strong play for those broadcast rights. (Probably guilty of stating the obvious here.)

This could certainly help explain the timing of the decision to bring KJR's Sports programming to the FM dial. I just learned from the Chicago forum that iHM recently landed rights to the Packers in Milwaukee, ending that team's four decade affiliation with WTMJ. They also are reportedly pursuing the rights to the Bears rather aggressively. And of course, in Washington, D.C., one of their stations (I believe it's WBIG 100.3) recently landed rights to the horrendous Washington Commanders (the team with the worst owner in the NFL, in my opinion).

Another thing to consider; is most major market teams are requiring a bidding station to be an FM station, not AM.

Wise move on the part of those teams!

Where I live, at least two teams making deep playoff runs were heard on highly directional AM stations with lousy nighttime signals deep into the 00's. Very frustrating those few times I couldn't be near a TV set or in instances where I wanted to mute the national TV announcers in favor of local broadcast crews.

I do want to add that the fact a metropolitan area as large and containing as much wealth as Seattle lacks an NBA team is a travesty. The site lines comment regarding Climate Pledge Arena is interesting. Is that because the slope of the grandstands isn't steep enough, meaning the cameras cannot be located in a position where they can obtain a sufficiently panoramic view without the big video scoreboard getting in the way? The WNBA plays there seemingly without difficulty, and some of those games are telecast nationally (albeit to small audiences; I've probably never watched more than 10 minutes of any of those broadcasts).