July '21 ratings

[davideduardo]

As others constantly point out, older demos are not as saleable. They are the ones still using Radio though...

With the right sellers, local direct sales are pretty much age-agnostic. In fact, many local accounts prefer those over 50 to those under 30 as they know they will get more revenue from the older listeners.

For example, a local mattress outlet will much prefer 45 and over... we are the folks with arthritis, bad backs, aches and pains and other conditions that make a comfortable sleep harder to achieve.

I even remember back in the 70's I got a local direct buy on a Beautiful Music station from a head shop; they discovered that lots of seniors were lighting up in the evening to alleviate pain and to get a nice rest (and it made the old color TVs look a lot more spectacular!). We worked on the copy to make it work for older listeners, and the shop reported a nice increase, particularly in things that made rolling one's own easier.

Direct accounts know that older consumers can be of great value. Agency accounts go for a sweet spot, and generally involve brands that need to create or sustain "share of voice" rather than selling at local retailers who advertise their store or insurance office or chiropractor's practice and not "things in boxes and bags".

 

[tbolt909]

With the right sellers, local direct sales are pretty much age-agnostic. In fact, many local accounts prefer those over 50 to those under 30 as they know they will get more revenue from the older listeners.

For example, a local mattress outlet will much prefer 45 and over... we are the folks with arthritis, bad backs, aches and pains and other conditions that make a comfortable sleep harder to achieve.

I even remember back in the 70's I got a local direct buy on a Beautiful Music station from a head shop; they discovered that lots of seniors were lighting up in the evening to alleviate pain and to get a nice rest (and it made the old color TVs look a lot more spectacular!). We worked on the copy to make it work for older listeners, and the shop reported a nice increase, particularly in things that made rolling one's own easier.

Direct accounts know that older consumers can be of great value. Agency accounts go for a sweet spot, and generally involve brands that need to create or sustain "share of voice" rather than selling at local retailers who advertise their store or insurance office or chiropractor's practice and not "things in boxes and bags".

Things in "boxes & bags" could mean coffins.
"One day you're gonna buy it" as they said on WKRP in the Ferryman Funeral ad episode.

Since you make a valid argument for older demos, why are so many Corporate groups opposed to it? If it's really about revenue, can't they train salespeople to sell local direct? Many formats aimed at younger demos have failed to generate any ratings or revenue. In the past you have said that AAA formats attract demos that are "Too Old". They would certainly be younger than an Oldies format gets. Many "Hippies" are now living a comfortable lifestyle and have some money to spend. Radio has systemic flaws for not programming for these people and tapping into that demographic...

 

[Buddy Shula]

The ratings listed here are 12+ ratings. They don't tell you anything about ratings in a particular demographic. It's quite possible to have mediocre 12+ (or 6+ in the case of PPM markets) but still have very good ratings in 18-34 or 25-49 females - a highly sought demo since they spend the most money in the marketplace. So, your the answer is that 12+ ratings alone don't determine the success of a station. It's even possible that a low-rated station that super-serves a niche audience may generate a lot more revenue than a general-interest station that has better ratings but a lot more competition. Add cost/benefit ratios to the mix and it becomes even more complex.

The 12 plus ratings are the biggest sample size. That's why they are quoted, put on All Access, etc. If your doing well in 12 plus, chances are you will do even better in your target demo.

 

[Buddy Shula]

I'd bet dollars to donuts 90% of that 3.2 comes from the FM translators. So calling it an AM Oldies format while technically correct, is a bit disingenuous.

Think again. 50% of that 3.2 comes from FM

 

[Buddy Shula]

Things in "boxes & bags" could mean coffins.
"One day you're gonna buy it" as they said on WKRP in the Ferryman Funeral ad episode.

Since you make a valid argument for older demos, why are so many Corporate groups opposed to it? If it's really about revenue, can't they train salespeople to sell local direct? Many formats aimed at younger demos have failed to generate any ratings or revenue. In the past you have said that AAA formats attract demos that are "Too Old". They would certainly be younger than an Oldies format gets. Many "Hippies" are now living a comfortable lifestyle and have some money to spend. Radio has systemic flaws for not programming for these people and tapping into that demographic...

They are opposed to it because Wall Street does not want to hear that. They want the shiny new toy . Corporate radio is run by Wall Street, not the radio stations.

who has more money a 25 year old or a 54 year old? Corporate radio doesn’t know what the hell they are doing, so why would use them as the metric to base everything on?

 

[four4rock]

Ratings alone are not THE goal of a station. Revenue... and even more... the bottom line, is the endgame and only game.

There are plenty of stations with high ratings that can't monetize that audience due to its type or age. Ratings are a "tool" to get higher revenue, but not the only one.

Even things like community service are part of the practices that lead to a better financial performance. I personally have a favorite case where I turned down a client and sent them to a competitor where the long-term revenue gain created by that move was vastly greater than taking the business; again, the goal was revenue and profit.

Station managers, usually called General Managers or market VPs or similar, generally today do not determine formats... the national programmers do that. Program directors in corporate operations follow the national PD or VP of Programming.

On a local station, with a local owner, if the decline in ratings comes with a loss of revenue, the manager will decide if the reason is is internal or due to competition. Perhaps the PD all along was asking for a promotion budget, and the decline is due to lack of that money; this is the fault of the manager or owner and not the PD.

What I am saying is that your question is way to broad, and there can be many situations where a decline in ratings is not the fault of local management or the local PD. Each case is different.

Thank you. My question is broad because of exactly what you say. But a business - any business - has a threshold of when industry metric declines (or improvements, for that matter) at their firm are highly significant. I'd imagine that a tenth of a point rating change (decline or of increase) probably draws fairly mild attention. [Note that I didn't say no attention whatsoever.] At the other end of the spectrum, I suspect that a 75% decline would draw substantial attention. Of course, there can be reasons far and wide. My inquiry is really 'what is the general threshold. In other words, at what level/point do the numbers really matter? When does it become an 'all hands on deck concern'. Sure, there can be reasons... many reasons... or just one reason... but isn't it still a concern... at some point? The second nosey curiosity was about if/when a 'buck-stops-here' level person was separated from employment because of such a decline. Again, I appreciate your comments.

 

[four4rock]

They are opposed to it because Wall Street does not want to hear that. They want the shiny new toy . Corporate radio is run by Wall Street, not the radio stations.

who has more money a 25 year old or a 54 year old? Corporate radio doesn’t know what the hell they are doing, so why would use them as the metric to base everything on?

The owner gets to call the shots. Meh.

Regarding the 25 yr old versus 54 yr old... while in most cases the 54 yr old is likely to have more money, wouldn't it be the case that their buying habits are more, well, habits... and, therefore, harder (less likely) to be swayed by some 20 second radio spiel(?)... and therefore more difficult to demonstrate results. At 54 if for the last 30 years you're used to going to Pep Boys to get your car inspected, I'm thinking Janet Snyder isn't highly likely gonna convince me to go to Scruggs Automotive. Maybe, but I'd think it's effectiveness is less vivid. It sure isn't low hanging fruit.

 

[davideduardo]

Thank you. My question is broad because of exactly what you say. But a business - any business - has a threshold of when industry metric declines (or improvements, for that matter) at their firm are highly significant. I'd imagine that a tenth of a point rating change (decline or of increase) probably draws fairly mild attention. [Note that I didn't say no attention whatsoever.] At the other end of the spectrum, I suspect that a 75% decline would draw substantial attention. Of course, there can be reasons far and wide. My inquiry is really 'what is the general threshold. In other words, at what level/point do the numbers really matter? When does it become an 'all hands on deck concern'. Sure, there can be reasons... many reasons... or just one reason... but isn't it still a concern... at some point? The second nosey curiosity was about if/when a 'buck-stops-here' level person was separated from employment because of such a decline. Again, I appreciate your comments.

A tenth of a rating point is about 1.2 share points, and is the threshold of major concern. Agency buys are predominantly based on rating, not share.

Stations know from long experience what their individual share range is, and when they drop outside that range, they become very concerned but generally will wait several monthlies before looking at whether it is a sample issue (Nielsen's fault) or a program issue (station's fault).

 

[TheBigA]

Stations know from long experience what their individual share range is, and when they drop outside that range, they become very concerned but generally will wait several monthlies before looking at whether it is a sample issue (Nielsen's fault) or a program issue (station's fault).

By the same token these stations (for the most part) are not free-standing individual entities, they are part of clusters, that are part of regions, that are part of groups, that are overseen by a number of managers in various departments and concentrations. You have lots of people involved. Responsibility is spread among many people and departments. Today, they seek to work as a TEAM. They're not looking for where the buck stops, so they can fire someone. They're instead looking for ways to co-operate and help each other achieve the goals of the company. When you look at the groups that own stations in Buffalo, the radio stations are part of the strategy, but they're not the only platform. Nielsen ratings ONLY cover the local broadcast platform. So they're becoming less important in the overall picture.

 

[ckg279]

BTW, since this specific board also covers Rochester, here's THEIR July '21 book(just the top 5 stations)...

1. WBEE 9.1 (+. 9)
2. WHAM-AM 5.8(+ .1)
3. WCMF 5.7(+ .1)
4. WPXY 4.5(- .2)
5. WBZA 4.4(+ .2)

Also of note:

-WDKX, for whatever reason, didn't chart in this book; it had a 7.8 in the June book.
-WAIO(Radio 95.1)isn't classic rock any more(as noted by Radio-Online and AllAccess); it's now hot talk.

 

[four4rock]

A tenth of a rating point is about 1.2 share points, and is the threshold of major concern. Agency buys are predominantly based on rating, not share.

Stations know from long experience what their individual share range is, and when they drop outside that range, they become very concerned but generally will wait several monthlies before looking at whether it is a sample issue (Nielsen's fault) or a program issue (station's fault).

Sincere thanks. Always interesting stuff.

 

[davideduardo]

Sincere thanks. Always interesting stuff.

Glad to hear that the clarification was useful. I'm always "afraid" that I may become too didactic and appear to be talking down to folks.

In other words, I don't want to sound like the song...

… Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
When you're perfect in every way
I can't wait to look in the mirror
Cause I get better looking each day...

Just to clarify something I got a private email about: "Rating" is the percentage of all persons in a group (12+, 18-49, etc.) that are listening to a station. "Share" is the percentage of radio listeners listening to that station.

If 10% of all people are listening on average, a 1 share is a 0.1 rating.

In PPM markets, the average PUMM (Persons Using Mass Media) for radio is around 8% of the universe age 6 and over, so a rating of .1 is equal to a share of about 1.2 based on the difference between radio users and all persons on average during the measured time period.

 

[four4rock]

By the same token these stations (for the most part) are not free-standing individual entities, they are part of clusters, that are part of regions, that are part of groups, that are overseen by a number of managers in various departments and concentrations. You have lots of people involved. Responsibility is spread among many people and departments. Today, they seek to work as a TEAM. They're not looking for where the buck stops, so they can fire someone. They're instead looking for ways to co-operate and help each other achieve the goals of the company. When you look at the groups that own stations in Buffalo, the radio stations are part of the strategy, but they're not the only platform. Nielsen ratings ONLY cover the local broadcast platform. So they're becoming less important in the overall picture.

No doubt. But, like any so-called "team", each position has it's respective objective - "goal", if you will. Each 'player' on the team... person, department, station, cluster, whatever... is surely expected to contribute *something* to the whole. Sure, each 'player' might have different metrics... of course... but they are still expected to produce "the" results for their place/position, no? And, likewise, I'd imagine that each successive tier is held to some form & degree of accountability, no? They look to their supporting team members to produce, I'd think. So, certainly, a station/general manager isn't directly accountable for the performance goals of an entire corporation... but are they not still responsible for their own contributory goals/objectives?... which would include those station-centric activities. And, IMO, if the buck doesn't stop with someone... some individual, then I'd suggest that's a huge problem. Someone needs to be the grand poobah of each team. Someone needs to sign off on stuff.

 

[TheBigA]

And, IMO, if the buck doesn't stop with someone... some individual, then I'd suggest that's a huge problem. Someone needs to be the grand poobah of each team. Someone needs to sign off on stuff.

The buck stops with the CEO, who reports to the Board, who report to the stockholders. If it is determined that the morning show is hurting the performance of the station, they fire the morning show. But it depends on what the problem is. The 12+ ratings alone have never gotten anyone I know fired.

Is that what you're looking for?

 

[tbolt909]

They are opposed to it because Wall Street does not want to hear that. They want the shiny new toy . Corporate radio is run by Wall Street, not the radio stations.

who has more money a 25 year old or a 54 year old? Corporate radio doesn’t know what the hell they are doing, so why would use them as the metric to base everything on?

I don't consider Corporate Radio to be the "Gold Standard" for competence. They have other agendas than broadcasting. I raised the question on whether revenue even matters in some cases. Some stations must be set up to "lose" on purpose. The individual stations (or formats) are just pawns in a bigger game. They don't actually expect some of these absurd formats to make money.

It reminds me of the final episode of WKRP. Mama Carlson wanted to flip the Rock format to All News because the station was starting to make money. The station was supposed to lose. "It's the plus & the plus if the minus is played properly" was her quote...

 

[Rusty Bridges]

Ratings for Persons 25-54, Phase 1, Mon-Sun, 6 m,-mid were briefly posted in this thread before the post was quickly and rightfully taken down by the moderators. Such a posting violates board policy and Nielsen contractual terms with client stations.

That properly stated, having viewed the post, one could not help note that WYRK, the #1 station, had three times the share and total quarter hours of the station ranked 10th. The top two stations, WYRK (country), WBLK (urban), were the only two stations in double digits. Both had a commanding three share lead on the two stations tied for third place (technically 4th place.). The #1 station had a five share lead on the fifth place station and a seven share advantage over the stations that placed 9th and 10th.

According to Nielsen licensing and publication policies, publication of station ranking is permitted, as long as shares, cume, quarter hours and all other specific statistical data are not published. As such, the ranking: 1 WYRK; 2 WBLK (less than a share separates these two stations); 4 WKSE-WGRF (tie); 5 WGR; 6 WEDG; 7 WBEN; 8 WECK; 9 WBFO; 10 WHTT.

§
NB: This post is made with the intent to comply with and heed the policies of this board, absent all intent to contravene said policies.

 

[ckg279]

Rusty: Insofar as the 25-54 rankings you mentioned, I'm surprised by a few things...

1. Kiss 98.5 does well in that demo; I always presumed that it's the station for the young-uns.
2. Star 102.5 isn't even IN the top 10. Ditto 96.1 the Breeze.
3. WBEN & WBFO are so close to each other.
4. WEDG IS in the top 10.
5. That WHTT didn't do better than #10.

 

[SirRoxalot]

Rusty: Insofar as the 25-54 rankings you mentioned, I'm surprised by a few things...

1. Kiss 98.5 does well in that demo; I always presumed that it's the station for the young-uns.
2. Star 102.5 isn't even IN the top 10. Ditto 96.1 the Breeze.
3. WBEN & WBFO are so close to each other.
4. WEDG IS in the top 10.
5. That WHTT didn't do better than #10.

Let me add to that. WECK beats WHTT 25-54? Yet WHTT easily outdistances WECK 12+?

 

[TheBigA]

Let me add to that. WECK beats WHTT 25-54? Yet WHTT easily outdistances WECK 12+?

There's a lot of that going on around the country. WCBS-FM, which at one time was a regular in the Top 5, is now #8 25-54. WOGL in Philly is not even Top 10. Sometimes bringing down demos can lose audience.

 

[Rusty Bridges]

Let me add to that. WECK beats WHTT 25-54? Yet WHTT easily outdistances WECK 12+?

It happens. WECK, by extrapolation, may have "a pig in a snake" with massive 50-54, while WHTT has a broader base 45-64, and maybe a "tent pole" somewhere in the 55-64 demo. Just speculatin' ... and then there's the quirks, which happen in various degrees in every book and/or every month. In this case WHTT may have had a few quirks 12-24. Weird. Unusual. But it happens. The same type of quirks may have benefited WECK somewhere in the vast 25-54 universe. Years ago, WYRK is said to have been very strong (#2 or #3) in Persons 12-17, which certainly helped boost its Persons 12+. I've read that such an occurence isn't unusual for a Country format, but it usually occurs in the Southern and Midwest markets which are Country strongholds, especially when the product is "ultra-contemporary."