I heard KAAY today near Gaylord. It was after Sunset in Michigan. I had no problem making out the ID, though there was a lot of interfererence. I just turned it on to check what was on 1090 as a result of this thread, and there it was. It was only one or two minutes before I heard the ID.
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KAAY
- Thread starter cyberdad
- Start date
Thanks, Rich. With the ease of identification, I would suspect that KAAY was running Day facilities. It was just past Sunset in Gaylord. I would have to look up the Sunset times in Little Rock to see what time they would normally change to night pattern.
In the early days of radio, even KGU Honolulu was Limited Time and was required to go off the air for at least certain hours to protect WJR. KFMB had to move from 540 to 760 because a Mexican Class I-A/Class A station came on the air on 540. 760 was the only place to go. WJR fought it for several years. The FCC refused to concede that it was done as a result of WJR's contesting it, but KFMB was limited at that time to 5 kW, Class II-B, and 760 was exempted from consideration for a Class II-A station in the Western US, which would have meant a station on 760 using at least 10 kW at night, probably closer to WJR than San Diego is. Now of course there is a Class D on 760 just outside the new model 0.5 mV/m 50% skywave.
In the early days of radio, even KGU Honolulu was Limited Time and was required to go off the air for at least certain hours to protect WJR. KFMB had to move from 540 to 760 because a Mexican Class I-A/Class A station came on the air on 540. 760 was the only place to go. WJR fought it for several years. The FCC refused to concede that it was done as a result of WJR's contesting it, but KFMB was limited at that time to 5 kW, Class II-B, and 760 was exempted from consideration for a Class II-A station in the Western US, which would have meant a station on 760 using at least 10 kW at night, probably closer to WJR than San Diego is. Now of course there is a Class D on 760 just outside the new model 0.5 mV/m 50% skywave.
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which class d is this? (New York/Kansas city?)
I am shocked that WJR allowed anything as close in as either of these 2
FCC data shows that KAAY should be using their nighttime pattern from 6 PM to 7:45 AM CT in the month of November.
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Actually both KCCV Overland Park, KS and WCHP Champlain, NY are barely outside the new model 0.5 mV/m 50% skywave. Both are Class D. KCCV operates with 200 watts at night. WCHP operates with 11 watts at night, and doesn't have to protect WJR skywave service in Canada. From what I can figure, if you are outside the new model predicted skywave contour, you can operate Class D. Apparently, and someone would have to show me the document because I have never been able to find it, you still have to be 750 miles away to be a Class B. KCCV is barely under Class B. Class B requires 141 mV/m RMS inverse field. The theoretical RMS inverse field for KCCV is 135.4 mV/m. The augmented RMS inverse field is actually greater than 141, at 142.39 mV/m. I asked someone at the FCC about this type of situation, and the theoretical RMS inverse field is what they go by.
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rbrucecarter5
Guest
I tried KAAY in the pre-sunrise hours, since I have so little luck with it at night. I possibly heard it, but got no ID or commercials / weather / traffic that would indicate Little Rock area. It was definitely NOT the local 1090, and was definitely in English.
I believe I heard 'em once, about two weeks ago. Forget which radio I was using. Probably the Superadio 2 or PR-D5. No ID on it, though.
I heard a woman mentioning the Bible around 10 or 11 p.m. PLT, underneath local KFNQ 1090 sports and XETRA sports coming in on a N-S bearing. The female voice was more NW-SE. It never faded up loud enough to ID the program, or hear any spots or ID's though.
I suppose sometimes this DX season it may crop up again. But so far this DX season has been a bit spotty.
I heard a woman mentioning the Bible around 10 or 11 p.m. PLT, underneath local KFNQ 1090 sports and XETRA sports coming in on a N-S bearing. The female voice was more NW-SE. It never faded up loud enough to ID the program, or hear any spots or ID's though.
I suppose sometimes this DX season it may crop up again. But so far this DX season has been a bit spotty.
In over a half century of DX, I've noticed that pattern change reduces signal in general much more than power reductions. KAAY, KWKH, and WOKY are three that come to mind as disappeaing at Sunset.
How about both? Here in Northern Illinois in the early 60s I used to listen to WNOE in New Orleans alot in the late fall and early winter months. They would come blasting in here after 4PM until their pattern change and power drop at 5PM--6PM, depending on the month. As soon as they dropped their power and slightly changed their pattern they'd go from a sometimes pretty strong signal to a complete disappearing act.
I tried KAAY again this morning at about 4am CST. Signal was lousy, but so were conditions in general. I'll try it at least once or twice more during the hours when it should be on night pattern before arriving at any conclusions regarding whether they've fixed their propagation issues.
Generally this is true because, for example, a 17db antenna null is not uncommon, but an eqivalent power change would be like from 50kw down to 1kw. Try driving around a highly directional station, one with lots of towers. 50Kw WAQI, Miami is so directional away from WOR, NYC that I can be less than two km NNE of the six-stick array and actually lose the station's carrier, though their sidebands still come blasting in, and I will not even get into the night pattern of KFXR (twelve active towers) in Dallas. The joke is that the station covers the main street in downtown Dallas, but not its sidewalks.
BTW, the highest minimum to maximum ERP ratio allowed on FM is only 10db.
I believe that it is 10 dB for TV stations. I believe FM has a 15 dB Maximum to Minimum ratio. Toward Canada, a 20 dB ratio is sometimes allowed under The Agreement between the United States and Canada. Translators have more flexibility. AM has no specific restrictions, although the Standard Pattern has a minimum null depth of 10 mV/m @ 1 km for 1 kW, due to the minimum Q factor. So the de facto Maximum to Minimum ratio would depend on the directional pattern for AM.
Of course, the power influences it, but a 5/1 U3 or U4 with a similar Night and Day Pattern can usually be heard after Day to Night facility change, though usually with more interference. WOKY has a very different Night pattern, and the IDF in my direction is much less.
WKJR 1520 had a nine tower array with 1 kW at Night. Coowned at the time Pathfinder Communications' WCKY 1530 could be easily heard on the lot the WKJR towers were on.
Of course, the power influences it, but a 5/1 U3 or U4 with a similar Night and Day Pattern can usually be heard after Day to Night facility change, though usually with more interference. WOKY has a very different Night pattern, and the IDF in my direction is much less.
WKJR 1520 had a nine tower array with 1 kW at Night. Coowned at the time Pathfinder Communications' WCKY 1530 could be easily heard on the lot the WKJR towers were on.
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I'll put the OT to bed, at least for myself. Tried 1090 once again about 90 minutes before sunrise yesterday morning. Long story short.... conditions were better than a couple nights previous, but KAAY's signal here was still pretty bad. Weak-to fair...more towards weak. So I'll just assume that when I heard them booming, they were at 50kw ND, even though they weren't supposed to be at that hour.
I think your final conclusion is correct Cyberdad. Each time I've tried for KAAY since you started the discussion the signal has been pretty weak. Nothing like the old days.
The maximum IDF for the DA is about twice the nondirectional inverse field. But you don't have to be that many degrees off the maximum to be getting less than the nondirectional inverse field. The beamwidth is quite narrow, about 40 degrees for the two major lobes. Looks like 27 degrees off the maximum is equivalent to nondirectional. So only 54 degrees per lobe, or 108 degrees for the whole pattern, is above the nondirectional inverse field.
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Groove1670
Guest
We could hear KAAY in South Florida at night in the 70's and 80's until Cuba started kicking up the interference.
I'm not a technical guy, but I think I understand the gist of what your saying....and how it would impact KAAY's signal at my location. The question I'm wondering about is whether KAAY's antenna, ground system, or some other aspect of their physical plant have been degraded. Of course, the signal could also be impacted if the DA has gotten out of whack. I think the consensus here is that the signal is definitely worse for whatever reason. But a strong signal earlier this month led me to think that perhaps the longstanding issues had been corrected. It now appears to me that this was not the case.
The fact remains that in KAAY's night signal here in the Chicago area was significantly better during KAAY's days as a top 40 station in the 1960s. More so than can be simply explained by higher noise levels and a more crowded AM band.
I guess my point was that over 2/3 of the pattern is below the Day 50 kW Nondirectional Inverse Field. So if you are hearing it well outside those directions (NNW and SSE), it's going to most likely be on Day Pattern. Not quite sure why it was that good in Chicago. Push buttons set for WLS and WCFL were common in Michigan, West Day and Night, East at Night, particularly in areas outside local Top 40 service areas and off the back of local patterns or outlying areas for Class IVs. But you were dealing with several mV/m skywaves frequently, and KAAY on Night Pattern doesn't seem that strong in Chicago, unless KAAY changed their pattern from back then.
On Thursday 11/26/2015 from about 9:45 pm ET to 10:05 pm ET, KAAY was the dominant signal on 1090 kHz near Saginaw, MI, as I heard using my old/cheap Sony SRF-M40W FM-AM "Walkman" I had with me there and then.
The FCC nighttime ERP from KAAY toward that reception point is well below both main lobes of KAAY's FCC nighttime pattern. But still I'd estimate that the S/N of KAAY there relative to its co-channel interferers was at least 10 dB, when the receiver loopstick was oriented to maximize the reception of KAAY.
KAAY's 10 pm ET ID there was very clear - no mistaking it.
The FCC nighttime ERP from KAAY toward that reception point is well below both main lobes of KAAY's FCC nighttime pattern. But still I'd estimate that the S/N of KAAY there relative to its co-channel interferers was at least 10 dB, when the receiver loopstick was oriented to maximize the reception of KAAY.
KAAY's 10 pm ET ID there was very clear - no mistaking it.
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