KB 1520 to ESPN

[spt87]

News on FM

Simulcasting News/Talk got some momentum when Merlin Media came along and challanged CBS AM stations in Chicago and NYC. CBS started simulcasting WBBM on FM and let it ride in NYC with WINS and WCBS on AM. During that time a bunch of stations like WBEN, WGY, WPRO and others added FM simulcasts.

Merlin's challenge fizzled out and the FM's didn't bring any new audience to the table - so ditching the WBEN simulcast isn't too surprising. Frankly, I'm surprised the others have continued on this long.

The shift of sports from AM To FM is another matter. A new FM competitor caused that to occur in Boston. I know there has been some movement in that direction in NYC with WFAN simulcasting to counter an upstart competitor. Time will tell if that becomes a larger trend.

 

[davideduardo]

David, the signal isn't as bad as you say, particularly in the eastern suburbs where the majority of residents with money reside.

Very few buys are determined based on neighborhood S/E levels.

The fact is that, in market after market, 80% of in-home and at-work listening occurs in the 70 dbu contour and 85% occurs inside the 65 dbu contour. The 107.7 65 dbu signal reaches less than 15% of the market. And since about 2/3 of all listening is in-home and at-work, the bad signal is a killer.

It's much better than 15% of MSA, especially in cars.

Again, the 65 dbu covers less than 15% of the MSA. Car radio sensitivity allows use of signals even below 60 dbu, but that still only adds a small amount to the effective coverage; the 107.7 signal does not put a 60 into downtown Buffalo and one whole county of the metro survey area has no usable signal at all.

WBEN got no bump from adding the FM simply because their programming is toxic to people under the age of 50. Until that changes, any bump in the FM is simply coming from somebody changing from AM, not from new listeners.

We don't know that the programming is "toxic". Look at the experiences of Cox with Dayton, Atlanta and Jacksonville. All three are somewhat comparable stations, programming wise, and in each case the FM coverage was good enough to add plenty of 25-54's to the potential listener base... and, of course, all three stations benefited greatly in very nice 45-54 increases.

 

[davideduardo]

Simulcasting News/Talk got some momentum when Merlin Media came along and challanged CBS AM stations in Chicago and NYC.

A move to or addition of FM to existing AM news/talkers began well before the Merlin debacle. It began to happen as successful FM talkers saw the aging demos and realized that the problem was the band, not the content. Keyword: "successful".

CBS started simulcasting WBBM on FM and let it ride in NYC with WINS and WCBS on AM.

But WBBM is not a talker. It is a news station.

Merlin's challenge fizzled out and the FM's didn't bring any new audience to the table - so ditching the WBEN simulcast isn't too surprising. Frankly, I'm surprised the others have continued on this long.

KCBS in San Francisco added FM and saw its 25-54 rank improve... but again, that is a news station, not a talker.

Many of the moves or simulcasts on FM have been very beneficial. Dayton, Atlanta, Jacksonville, SLC, Phoenix, Indianapolis, etc. They improved the sales demo performance of stations with fundamentally strong programming that appealed to the upper end of 25-54, but were not getting listening due to the band they were on.

The shift of sports from AM To FM is another matter. A new FM competitor caused that to occur in Boston.

The best example is WXYT in Detroit, which has been in the top 3 since moving from an AM to FM... and has been #1 on occasion. They did not get that amount of AM listening due to coverage, the noise on the AM band in a major metro and, mostly, because under-50's are predisposed against AM.

I know there has been some movement in that direction in NYC with WFAN simulcasting to counter an upstart competitor. Time will tell if that becomes a larger trend.

ESPN is not an upstart competitor, as ESPN is not an "upstart" in the sports arena and the programming was on AM 1050 prior to going to FM (leaving the AM to do sports in Spanish).

I believe the format with the most "FM converts" over the last two years or so is sports. This is already a "larger trend".

 

[SirRoxalot]

David, you're looking at contours. I LIVE HERE. I know that arguing with you is useless because you simply won't admit being wrong, but you really don't know what you're talking about here. A lot of thing affect the viability of a signal. BTW, most of the population of the metro is in the eastern suburbs simply because the western suburb is LAKE ERIE. If you knew anything about the area, you'd know that the City of Buffalo is slightly about Detroit in poverty level. The money is in the 'burbs, which are mostly east of the city. 107.7 gets into those homes, the commuter routes (mostly east of the city) and a lot of businesses which followed development funds into the 'burbs.

 

[Mike Sheridan]

David in your quote on signal contour are you accounting for the difference between FM stereo and FM mono? Mono FM signals have a better signal to noise ratio.

 

[davideduardo]

David in your quote on signal contour are you accounting for the difference between FM stereo and FM mono? Mono FM signals have a better signal to noise ratio.

65 dbu is 65 dbu in mono or stereo. And that is the well proven threshold for delivering a usable signal inside homes and buildings as proven by millions of diary returns.

While mono seems to add a small fringe coverage benfit in moving vehicles, there is some controversy as to any benefits in fixed locations. My anecdotal experience is that it makes scant difference in buildings. The negative affect of having an 18-34 targeted format in mono far outweigh any small coverage.

 

[fybush]

I have immense respect for David and his research.

The two things I'd add with respect specifically to Buffalo and 107.7 are these: Buffalo is a somewhat under-radioed market, at least where it comes to big-signal commercial FMs. This is, of course, partially the result of proximity to Canada and the number of frequencies in use across the border; it's also a result of two big commercial FM channels being used for non-mainstream formats (WNED-FM and WDCX-FM). That leaves only nine full-market commercial FMs...and a very long history of Buffalo listeners having a fairly high incentive to put up with distant signals to bring in desired content.

And 107.7, in particular, has a history of providing desirable niche content to draw listeners to a less-than-optimal signal. There was WUWU's cult following in the 80s, of course, but also smooth jazz (until 92.9 grabbed the audience away) and later on the very good sports programming as WNSA, AAA as the Lake, and the more recent Bills and Sabres simulcasts.

None of this, of course, helps 107.7 overcome the many parts of the market where it's just not usable at all - most of Niagara County, and downtown where the blowtorch Rand Building signals wipe everything else off the dial. But I do concur with my fellow locals that in this particular case, there's every reason to believe that listeners will follow compelling programming down below the 65 dBu threshold, especially in the eastern suburbs and the Southtowns.

(There's also that 107.3 translator on the Time Warner Cable tower on LaSalle...it's been neglected for most of Entercom's run with 107.7, but it has some potential to help the 107.7 situation in the city if it's promoted properly.)

 

[TheBigA]

.... there's every reason to believe that listeners will follow compelling programming down below the 65 dBu threshold, especially in the eastern suburbs and the Southtowns.

We'll see...in other markets, the alternative demo is so well served by non-broadcast media that they often aren't compelled to venture to traditional venues, especially when they don't have recent previous history. If the station makes a big splash by promoting local concerts in the area, and providing other free services that appeal to the demo, it might get on their radar.

 

[davideduardo]

I have immense respect for David and his research.
But I do concur with my fellow locals that in this particular case, there's every reason to believe that listeners will follow compelling programming down below the 65 dBu threshold, especially in the eastern suburbs and the Southtowns.

There is some empirical evidence that this can happen.

In the study I conducted of listening location vs. signal strength based on diary-indicated listening location, the exceptions to the 65 dbu "rule" occurred to a limited extent with passion driven formats. However, in most of these cases, it was classical music or NPR which seemed to cause people to do things to overcome the lack of signal to be able to listen at home or at work to this kind of format and station.

(I say "seemed" as that is opinion. There was no actual follow-up with diarykeepers to see why they went out of their way to pick up marginal signal stations while listeners in other formats did not listen outside those contours. I was particularly interested in the competitive challenges of rimshots and the like since I was involved with a basket full of them and needed guidance on what reasonable expectations might be. Think Garden City.)

I think BigA has a point that in the demo where Alternative has appeal, new media is at its strongest. The smaller signal will have to contend with the superior reception of many of the streaming alternatives. While we know the issues of streaming in-car, workplace and home streaming is relatively reliable, and portable devices are becoming more often used than radio receivers by this demo.

I do get that Buffalo has limited signals on FM and that listeners may have historically put up with less than perfect ones; I don't think today's 18-34's will behave as past generations have because they do have so many new media alternatives.

It will be fun to see how this plays out and whether the station can get a significant enough share to get anything other than the (dreadful stereotype alert) classic bail bonds, pawn shop and auto insurance spots a lot of 18-34 bottom feeding stations seem to survive on.

 

[davideduardo]

Buffalo is a somewhat under-radioed market, at least where it comes to big-signal commercial FMs. This is, of course, partially the result of proximity to Canada and the number of frequencies in use across the border

If they had only built Toronto where Belleville is Buffalo would have more FM allocations and our Canadian friends would not have that wicked wind directly off the lake.

 

[greengrocer]

Wben is 24 hours of republicon propaganda disguised as main stream media

 

[JustPastBuffalo]

The two things I'd add with respect specifically to Buffalo and 107.7 are these: Buffalo is a somewhat under-radioed market, at least where it comes to big-signal commercial FMs. This is, of course, partially the result of proximity to Canada and the number of frequencies in use across the border; it's also a result of two big commercial FM channels being used for non-mainstream formats (WNED-FM and WDCX-FM). That leaves only nine full-market commercial FMs...and a very long history of Buffalo listeners having a fairly high incentive to put up with distant signals to bring in desired content.

And 107.7, in particular, has a history of providing desirable niche content to draw listeners to a less-than-optimal signal. There was WUWU's cult following in the 80s, of course, but also smooth jazz (until 92.9 grabbed the audience away) and later on the very good sports programming as WNSA, AAA as the Lake, and the more recent Bills and Sabres simulcasts.

I have immense respect for Scott and his acumen... Overlooked was the format that propelled the ratings higher than any format mentioned, that being WBYR "The Bear." After Taft flipped 97 Rock to AC in January 1985, The Bear filled the AOR void and, for a book or two, scored 12+ ratings in the 6-7+ range. A while ago for sure, but The Bear attracted a lot of ears and diaries.

 

[greengrocer]

buffalo does not need any part of a poor corporate citizen like entercom..............anyone that is givng these losers the rights to own 9 stations at once in our market needs to sit in a jail cell

 

[fybush]

I have immense respect for Scott and his acumen... Overlooked was the format that propelled the ratings higher than any format mentioned, that being WBYR "The Bear."

And I have immense respect for JPB and his experience, too. I didn't overlook WBYR, but it didn't quite fit my thesis of 107.7 working well with niche formats. WBYR was probably as mainstream as 107.7 has ever been, and it's a testament to the good programming and promotion behind it - as well as the little bit of luck with 97 Rock being on the DL - that it did so well on a marginal signal. (I suppose one could argue that WNUC and WNSA were pretty mainstream, too.)

 

[greengrocer]

when entercom put rush limpballs on 2 stations at the same time in the market, they proved money and ratings mean nothing......it dont matter if they take him off one station now, they already proved who they are

you are just liars................trying to act like there some big strategy ..................

the main focus of entercom is to make sure the only political message being spread on the radio air waves is that of the republicon/billionaire party

 

[SirRoxalot]

Um, WBEN has about a 10 share. WWKB had about a 1 share. You may not like it, but it's ALL about ratings and revenue. 'KB simply didn't pay its own way. WBEN does. When WBEN's ratings and revenue drop far enough, and another viable format becomes obvious, they'll put Bill Maher on radio if they can make a profit.

It ain't political, Grocer. It's MONEY. Rush's act (and it IS an act) brings dollars through the door.

 

[davideduardo]

when entercom put rush limpballs on 2 stations at the same time in the market, they proved money and ratings mean nothing......it dont matter if they take him off one station now, they already proved who they are

The ad hominem... and a disgusting one at that... proves I am tilting at windmills here. But, if facts are of any interest, the reasons were other than the conspiracy you are conjuring up.

WBEN, although generally at the top in 12+, is actually hard-pressed to be in the top 10 in 25-54. That's in part because under-55's really don't like AM for anything.

In some markets... and Cox has given many an example of this... putting a good talk format on an FM will enhance the under-55 demos.

And since, in any market, selling older demos is somewhere between hard and impossible even with a heritage station, Entercom wanted to try adding FM to WBEN to improve the falling 25-54 numbers. You can't fault them for trying. Whether it did not work due to the content being to "old" or whether it was due to the signal of the FM, the fact is that the motivation for the experiment is totally non-political.

To quote Sir Roxalot, with whom I often disagree, "It's all about the ratings and revenue". And he is totally right.

you are just liars................trying to act like there some big strategy ..................

This is, perhaps, a preface to your saying "... and they are my marbles and I'm taking them home."

the main focus of entercom is to make sure the only political message being spread on the radio air waves is that of the republicon/billionaire party

The main focus of Entercom, like any public corporation, is to make money. Entercom's publicly traded shares are over 90% owned by investment banks and mutual funds. If there were any political hanky-panky being played, they would be hit with a shareholder suit faster than you can say "This is the EIB Network..."


Bazinga!

 

[stevensonair]

The Cox stations in question may not succeed strictly on the basis of being "good talk stations" (debatable) but because they have very strong, heritage local news brands and the resources to back that up. Regardless of politics, I'm sure most Tulsans and Atlantans regard KRMG and WSB respectively as the go to brand for local radio news.

 

[davideduardo]

The Cox stations in question may not succeed strictly on the basis of being "good talk stations" (debatable) but because they have very strong, heritage local news brands and the resources to back that up. Regardless of politics, I'm sure most Tulsans and Atlantans regard KRMG and WSB respectively as the go to brand for local radio news.

I was thinking of Jax and Dayton first, and also the recent gains for WDBO which had terrible demos previously.