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KBOQ-103.9 Drops Classical Music For AC
- Thread starter Madmansam
- Start date
It does prove that corporate commercial radio has no class. Maybe the only commercially-operated clssical stations left in the US are run by small family-run groups, or managed by public media partners (a la WFMT and WCLV)? (I"m thinking KDB Santa Barbara and the network in Maine.)
KDFC, when it was a commercial operation at 102.1, had enviable ratings and attracted a prime-buying audience. You can't convince me wwitching it to a dinosaur-rock simulcat with another full-powered signal 40 miles away was because the station wasn't a steady audience magnet and profitable. I think it's because the people who run it don't know how to operate in a world of educated, sophisticated audiences. Then again, despite the weaker signal, the non-commercial approach to classical music sure is easier to listen to for those of us who appreciate and enjoy the wide variety of music that you can call "Classical." Too bad that can't get 102.1 donated back to them as a tax write off.
KDFC, when it was a commercial operation at 102.1, had enviable ratings and attracted a prime-buying audience. You can't convince me wwitching it to a dinosaur-rock simulcat with another full-powered signal 40 miles away was because the station wasn't a steady audience magnet and profitable. I think it's because the people who run it don't know how to operate in a world of educated, sophisticated audiences. Then again, despite the weaker signal, the non-commercial approach to classical music sure is easier to listen to for those of us who appreciate and enjoy the wide variety of music that you can call "Classical." Too bad that can't get 102.1 donated back to them as a tax write off.
Goldilocks94941 said:
What makes you think that playing symphonies and chamber music gives a company class? Most of the time classical music has been used by listeners as inoffensive background music (aka "elevator music"), nothing more.
If the ratings and the buying power were so enviable, why didn't the owners keep the format? Station owners struggle to find formats that will make money for them, so your assertion that an owner would purposely change a format that makes money is a really dumb assertion. You know NOTHING about the reasons why this change took place, but I'd suggest it's because the KDFC audience wasn't bringing in the revenue the station needed.
Educated, sophisticated audiences aren't where the money is. When people became more educated and sophisticated they are less likely to be responsive to advertising campaigns, thus they become less desirable, not more desirable as an audience.
I'm a very sophisticated kind of guy. I am a musician, software developer, German-style board game player, sometime actor and stage performer, California historian, and whatnot. I am a horrible prospect as audience for commercial radio. There is probably nothing advertised on any local radio or TV station that I would buy. I sleep on the floor, which is far better for my back, so I'm not in the market for mattresses. I don't like most American movies, so I'm unlikely to go see the latest blockbuster. I am not scared by the ADT burglar alarm ads, nor to I have any desire to "be a Bud" and drink Budweiser beer. Etc.
You also don't understand tax writeoffs. A tax writeoff is an asset that you can't use that might be useful to someone else. So, you give it to some organization and take a deduction based on its appraised worth. It may be worth nothing to you, but on the market it may still be worth something. Well, 102.1 is definitely worth money to its current owner, so to suggest that it be donated as a tax writeoff shows a lack of understanding how writeoffs work.
The new KDFC is much more listenable than the commercial one was BECAUSE it is non-commercial and doesn't depend on advertising to work. Thus, they don't have to justify numbers of people in particular demographic groups.
Goldilocks94941 said:
KBOQ is down to about 15th in revenue (2010) and 20th in 25-54 ratings (Spring book) and an average monthly billing of less than $25 thousand... while the market leader does $200 k. It's not about class, it's about not losing money.
That was back in the diary days. It did no do nearly as well in the PPM, and looked terrible in the sales and salable demos. Classical look much less attractive in the light of PPM, not just in SF.
Any business expense is a "write off." But getting a one time expense of whatever the station is worth is not as good as keeping the asset and making it produced income and profit. It's better to pay taxes every year on a profitable format than to have a large deduction one year and then have no asset... one that could possibly strengthen the owner's competitive cluster position in the market.
Everything I've learned about Arbitron is from David Eduardo's postings. We can all decry the changes in radio brought about by PPM, but we have to concede that it's a more accurate system. The problem with diaries, I would assume, is that self-reporting is unreliable. We all like to think that we're 'cultured,' and listen to classical music, but I suspect most of us rarely do, and when we do, it's only for short periods of time.
I don't know if any research has been done on classical listeners, but I suspect you'd have to go back to pre-baby boomers (people in their 70s now) to find a generation of Americans that truly appreciated classical music.
I'll take myself as an example - a baby boomer, growing up in the 60s, addicted to Beatles, Beach Boys, and other forms of rock and pop music. My parents (born in the early 1920s) appreciated both classical and jazz, and listened to both contstantly. The jazz was from my father's extensive collection of jazz LPs, but the classical came primarily from LA's commercial Classical radio station, KFAC. I believe that station dropped classical music in the 80s or early 90s, by the way.
For me, jazz stuck somehow - I regularly listen to KCSM, and go to jazz concerts and clubs probably a couple dozen times a year. But while I appreciate some classical pieces, on the whole, I'm not a big fan.
When I do listen to KDFC, it's for short periods, and generally because I'm in an "easy listening" mood.
Keep in mind that jazz fans haven't had a commercial station in the Bay Area since KJAZ went under in the mid 90s. KCSM fills the void quite nicely, thank you - and I'm sure classical fans will also continue to get the music they like on the radio from non-comms.
I don't know if any research has been done on classical listeners, but I suspect you'd have to go back to pre-baby boomers (people in their 70s now) to find a generation of Americans that truly appreciated classical music.
I'll take myself as an example - a baby boomer, growing up in the 60s, addicted to Beatles, Beach Boys, and other forms of rock and pop music. My parents (born in the early 1920s) appreciated both classical and jazz, and listened to both contstantly. The jazz was from my father's extensive collection of jazz LPs, but the classical came primarily from LA's commercial Classical radio station, KFAC. I believe that station dropped classical music in the 80s or early 90s, by the way.
For me, jazz stuck somehow - I regularly listen to KCSM, and go to jazz concerts and clubs probably a couple dozen times a year. But while I appreciate some classical pieces, on the whole, I'm not a big fan.
When I do listen to KDFC, it's for short periods, and generally because I'm in an "easy listening" mood.
Keep in mind that jazz fans haven't had a commercial station in the Bay Area since KJAZ went under in the mid 90s. KCSM fills the void quite nicely, thank you - and I'm sure classical fans will also continue to get the music they like on the radio from non-comms.
DavidKaye said:
Look at the Solano Mall they play classical music from their computers in the lobby as background for the lobby. But I do agree that commercial classical music on FM radio is falling down due to low audience and that the audience move to non-profit FM and the web for music like live 365, Itunes and Loud City. However we need to look for a Big-Band station and a BMEZ listening music and MOR that still exist on FM radio as of 2011 and that is commercial.
Lkeller said:
There's classical music and there's classical music. Yeah, the classical music of the 1950s is gone, and good riddance to that. Michael Tilson Thomas of the SF Symphony decries the lack of interest in classical music by younger audiences, but what he's presenting is crap.
MEANWHILE, there are groups of classical musicians in their 20s and 30s who play under the name Classical Revolution in 20 different cities. SF's group, the original, plays Monday nights at the Revolution Cafe on 22nd between Mission and Valencia in San Francisco, and they always have a full house.
So, it's not that the music is dead, but the PRESENTATION is dead, at least for the more conventional classical broadcasters and symphonies.
Just last night I listened to a fascinating new release by a cellist who played her own classical composition and looped it to sound like a quartet. Fascinating stuff! This is the kind of stuff the KDFC is now doing, and the reason, probably, why with minimal signal their audience keeps growing and growing each month. People want interesting classical music, not the same old stale workhorses they've heard all their lives.
Also, there are classical/jazz mash-ups, which are definitely worth a listen.
Good info, David. Didn't know about the Revolution Cafe, which is not far from where I live. I'll check it out.
Lkeller said:
Anecdote time.
In 1970, I went in the field with the company that did the radio ratings in Puerto Rico. The system was simple: in home coincidental. No recall, just "Is your radio on? If it is, what station is it on and can you increase the volume to verify?"
Subscribers could go along, but only if they said nothing and just observed. We did not know the locations in advance.
Background: among the 30 San Juan station were WIPR, a pseudo NPR station with lots of classical music. And WKVM, playing very rural music with slang-slinging DJs, and it was known as "the washer woman's station" due to its low income appeal.
We were in a high income area, new homes in the $50 k price range, mansions in PR in '70. As we moved up the street, we heard WKVM blasting from several doors down. When we reached the home, with 'KVM blaring, the interviewer knocked, and the lady of the house appeared. "Ma'am, is your radio on? "Yes," she said. "And what are you listening to?" "WIPR, of course."
The woman obviously thought that the neighborhood she had moved up to demanded her to say that she listened to the fine arts station.
Were this a diary survey, with no verification, the diary entry would have stood unchallenged. As it was, the interviewer verified with a portable radio and wrote down the real station.
The story used to be that if you were of a certain age and financial level, sooner or later you would turn to classical music. Some time in the 80s, that began to cease to be. The yuppies didn't care as much about trying to show how cultured they were and kept listening to the same rock and roll and the same Stern/Dahl/Greaseman-imitating morning guy on the FM rock station (or if they did, they listened to jazz, either the "real" kind or the "smooth" kind). And now, "smooth jazz" is going the way of classical on commercial radio. I have the feeling that 10 years from now, if the stations are still in existence, the jocks at KCSM are going to be spinning the Yellowjackets and Spyro Gyra and Chuck Mangione as much or more than Miles or Trane--perhaps even the same jocks who mocked those bands back in the 80s as "not real jazz." I don't think the jazz stations will go the route of the commercial BA-consulted stations and play AC pop vocals, but there will not be the resistance to certain "smooth jazz" acts there was and is, just like the resistance to 60s "soul jazz" eventually withered away.
DavidEduardo said:
I believe it. The analogy from my life would be the Foreign Film section. From '83 to 93, I owned video rental stores. In Marin, our customers would come in and complain about our pathetic Foreign Film section - maybe about 20 titles. So over the next year or so, we spent a lot of money upgrading to over 150 titles. Then people would come in and compliment us on our "great Foreign Film section"...and then walk over to New Releases and rent Die Hard 2 or Ferris Bueller's Day Off. The foreign films rarely rented, unless they were some new NC17 rated Aldomovar film with a lot of "buzz." So that Foreign Film section was a good marketing tool - it proved to customers that we were a "quality" video store...but it never brought us much revenue. It definitely qualified as a "loss-leader."
Lkeller said:
I believe it. The analogy from my life would be the Foreign Film section. From '83 to 93, I owned video rental stores. In Marin, our customers would come in and complain about our pathetic Foreign Film section - maybe about 20 titles. So over the next year or so, we spent a lot of money upgrading to over 150 titles. Then people would come in and compliment us on our "great Foreign Film section"...and then walk over to New Releases and rent Die Hard 2 or Ferris Bueller's Day Off. The foreign films rarely rented, unless they were some new NC17 rated Aldomovar film with a lot of "buzz." So that Foreign Film section was a good marketing tool - it proved to customers that we were a "quality" video store...but it never brought us much revenue. It definitely qualified as a "loss-leader."
[/quote]
lkeller-When you owned a video store what kinds of foreign films did you have? were they from places like China, Philippines and Mexico? I know in places like South San Francisco, and Daly City the sales for foreign films tended to be higher due to immigrants from these countries of origin. Or were these films from France, Italy and Germany?
Recto - I was talking about video stores I ran in affluent and predominantly Caucasian and non-ethnic parts of the Bay Area. These were people who wanted foreign films because they are considered more artistic and higher quality. So mostly French, Spanish, Italian, some German. Really, though - they mostly wanted to watch the big hit movies...maybe rented a foreign film once a year.
I know what you mean, though - for awhile later, I managed a store in the Mission District of SF, where Spanish language films were quite popular - an entirely different audience, obviously.
Now back to the Classical Music interlude...
I know what you mean, though - for awhile later, I managed a store in the Mission District of SF, where Spanish language films were quite popular - an entirely different audience, obviously.
Now back to the Classical Music interlude...
Mark Jeffries said:
That may have been the "story" but I can't recall that this ever happened. The early FM stations mainly played classical, but this was because FMs weren't making any money and (for the most part) the music was not subject to ASCAP, BMI, or SESAC fees, which make up a substantial part of a station's cost of doing business. Also, in those days, they just basically wanted to keep the FMs on the air until the market got better, so they used the least offensive programming they could find.
For the most part the people who went to symphonies and operas weren't classical buffs, they were people who were part of social group that did this. It was peer pressure more than anything that kept these folks going, not appreciation of the music. People want to be part of a "tribe", whether it be punks, dopers, geeks, or symphony lovers. They'll often put up with things they don't especially like just in order to belong.
The reason fewer people are attending the symphony is because the social structure has changed. Used to be that if you had money for this stuff you were a scion of a family with old money. You had 2 or 3 or 4 generations of money, and you were expected to play the role. But today with people making boatloads of new money without needing family connections, there is no family/tribe pressure to attend the symphony or opera.
I'm not into opera, but my wife kinda sorta is. Two recent Opera experiences - both sponsored by KDFC. "Opera in the Park." ...that being Golden Gate Park. Diane Nicolini and Bill Lueth both spoke to the crowd. They are very attractive people. The talent sang more or less the "greatest hits" of opera - light classics and recognizable songs. The audience went wild. It was fun...nice sunny day with thousands of people around drinking copious amounts of wine with their gourmet food. I enjoyed it...and the wine helped...a lot.
Second experience late last year (2010) - Opera at AT&T park - the jumbo-tron presentation of the Opera. I think it was La Traviata, but I don't recall for sure. No wine. To me - interesting for about 20 minutes, then incredibly boring for the remainder of the 3+ hours. Seemed like 6 hours.
This year, when the AT&T park thing rolled around again, my wife wanted to go again, but had something to do early in the day, so she asked me to go early to save seats. I'll let you guess what I told her.
Second experience late last year (2010) - Opera at AT&T park - the jumbo-tron presentation of the Opera. I think it was La Traviata, but I don't recall for sure. No wine. To me - interesting for about 20 minutes, then incredibly boring for the remainder of the 3+ hours. Seemed like 6 hours.
This year, when the AT&T park thing rolled around again, my wife wanted to go again, but had something to do early in the day, so she asked me to go early to save seats. I'll let you guess what I told her.
J
JEREMIAH
Guest
KBOQ? KBOQ?
That was my reaction when I first saw those calls here. I didn't remember them in SF so I got on radio-locator and discovered it was a class A (lowest powered FM class) Liscensed to Seaside in the Monterey area.
In none of the posts was the location ever mentioned. It's amazing there were so many posts about an out of market station.
Did they stream and have a following in the Bay area?
The comments about the Classical situation by David Kaye and others was very well taken.
Jerry Gordon
That was my reaction when I first saw those calls here. I didn't remember them in SF so I got on radio-locator and discovered it was a class A (lowest powered FM class) Liscensed to Seaside in the Monterey area.
In none of the posts was the location ever mentioned. It's amazing there were so many posts about an out of market station.
Did they stream and have a following in the Bay area?
The comments about the Classical situation by David Kaye and others was very well taken.
Jerry Gordon
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