KBRT Nearly Eliminates Upper HD Side Band

[Carmine5]

As some of you know there has been a lengthy dispute between KFMB-AM San Diego and Crawford's "fire starter" KBRT in Avalon over IBOC interference going back to 2008.

To resolve the problem, KBRT, 740 kHz, Avalon, has virtually eliminated its upper HD sideband in a voluntary experiment. The sideband was reduced 17 dB from its normal value by using the maximum attenuation practical with KBRT's first-generation HD equipment.

What KBRT found in their experiment was surprising: The loss of the upper HD sideband did not appear to diminish
KBRT's HD reception, at least in initial testing.

You can read the short item here:

http://www.bext.com/_CGC/2009/cgc981.htm

And see a spectrogram of the attenuated signal here:

http://earthsignals.com/add_CGC/Images/KBRTspec.jpg

I've wondered if such an idea could work. Apparently it can.

c5

 

[davideduardo]

As some of you know there has been a lengthy dispute between KFMB-AM San Diego and Crawford's "fire starter" KBRT in Avalon over IBOC interference going back to 2008.

It's important to note that KBRT (As Poole' original KBIG) was the original station, and KFMB was placed there when NARBA was ammended. KFMB was on 540, but NARBA gave 540 to Mexico and the FCC put KFMB on 760, despite prohibited overlap with KBIG. In truth, KFMB should not be on 760, but the FCC had to find them a minimally objectionable new frequency.

In any event, KBRT is filing to move to a site in Orange County where it will interfere with KFMB less and be able to use it's low night power.

The fire on Catalina was not started by KBRT... it was started by a subcontractor hired to retension and repair guy wires and anchors.

 

[KB1OKL]

I think you missed the point of Carmine's post David. Now if only the other sideband could be eliminated.

 

[davideduardo]

I think you missed the point of Carmine's post David. Now if only the other sideband could be eliminated.

It's a moot point... KBRT is moving off the island. And the snide remark about the fire is unwarranted.

But, yes, the fact that some interference complaints can be resolved by eliminating one sideband is interesting. On the other hand, most of the complaints have to do with almost DX quality out-of-market reception.

And this is still more rearranging of the Titanic's deck chairs.

 

[nd2023]

WJR and WABC on 760 and 770 respectively turned off nighttime IBUZ because they interfered with each other at night in the protected contour. Both of those stations are owned by Citadel. The benefit of 2 people being able to hear WJR or WABC in HD at night is outweighed by the loss of analog reception at night. In the winter, night includes AM and PM drive.

For KBRT, instead of spending money to eliminate one sideband, how about eliminating both sidebands? No one's listening in HD.

 

[K6JHU]

Hey gang. Two things.

First, there is nothing in the FCC data base about KBRT moving to the mainland.

Second, please stop the rant that nobody is listening to HD. Look at the topic on the LA board. The complaint there is about the programming, so there are listeners. Now if the braodcasters would accept that and do some rela programming....

 

[BRNout]

Second, please stop the rant that nobody is listening to HD. Look at the topic on the LA board. The complaint there is about the programming, so there are listeners. Now if the braodcasters would accept that and do some rela programming....

If I may interject here.....

Just because posters on the LA board are talking about HD2 programming doesn't mean that "people" are listening to HD radio in any quantity. Not at all. Most of us are here because we have a special interest in this medium. We are far from "ordinary" and, as I've been told a million times here, the opinions on this board are not representative. That is very much the case with HD radio. I bought one too - but my wife still has no idea what it is or does - or cares. She'd rather listen to her MP3 player. She's the *typical* listener - as opposed to the pros on the LA board.

Numbers don't lie K6JHU: less than 2 million HD radios have been sold in the USA so far. Many of those are collecting dust. But, even assuming that they are not, and that everyone who has one is perusing HD radio stations as I write this, that comes out to about 6% of the population. So, 94% don't even have access to HD radio. And, you've got to wish that the 6% are listening like crazy. Well, I own 2 HD radios; one is a perennial dust collector that doesn't work well enough to bother with, the other (the Inspiron portable) is used only occasionally.

Basically, run the numbers and the truth is that practically no one is listening to HD radio. That's an accurate statement.

 

[Carmine5]

I think you missed the point of Carmine's post David. Now if only the other sideband could be eliminated.

It's a moot point... KBRT is moving off the island. And the snide remark about the fire is unwarranted.

But, yes, the fact that some interference complaints can be resolved by eliminating one sideband is interesting. On the other hand, most of the complaints have to do with almost DX quality out-of-market reception.

And this is still more rearranging of the Titanic's deck chairs.

I'm well aware of the circumstances surrounding the Catalina/KBRT fire. I also know from friends who live in Avalon that neither Crawford nor KBRT in the aftermath of the fire issued any apology, mea culpa, offer of reparations or any concern for Avalon, their COL. As I understand it, the people of Avalon view the transmitter site as a bad neighbor and if there is any action to moving it off the island (and there seems to be some dispute about that) I'm sure they would welcome it.

But the real purpose of the thread was to simply highlight this as a possible option for reducing IBOC interference.

Of course, as the CGC newsletter states further down the real money for radio is in the analog signal and will be for years to come. So preserving the integrity and quality of the analog signal (both the station's own signal and that of their neighbors) should be of paramount importance and not be sacrificed in favor of IBOC.

c5

 

[davideduardo]

First, there is nothing in the FCC data base about KBRT moving to the mainland.

It's clearly described as under preparation in the Crawford engineering newsletter / website.

 

[davideduardo]

So preserving the integrity and quality of the analog signal (both the station's own signal and that of their neighbors) should be of paramount importance and not be sacrificed in favor of IBOC.

The fact remains that the FCC licenced KFMB to 760 in violation of its own protection rules, thus making any new technology which does meet the rules but not this shoehorned allocation unlikely to work in this case. In such a case, the improperly licensed station should bear the brunt of the problem.

 

[Savage]

"Fewer than 2 million HD Radios have been sold so far?" Yes. Indeed.

Much in the same way that "37 radios" is "fewer than 2 million radios."

2 million HD Radios? In Bob Struble's dreams. Eric Rhoads was raising a champagne glass when he sold a THOUSAND little red Insignia knockoffs. And almost all of those went to radio industry people for $35 each.
Whoopdee doo.

A local car dealer tried giving a free HD Radio converter away with each new car sale. At the end of three months they called up the station and told them to come and pick up their supply of converters. Customers didn't want HD Radio even when it was free.

 

[BRNout]

"Fewer than 2 million HD Radios have been sold so far?" Yes. Indeed.

Much in the same way that "37 radios" is "fewer than 2 million radios."

2 million HD Radios? In Bob Struble's dreams. Eric Rhoads was raising a champagne glass when he sold a THOUSAND little red Insignia knockoffs. And almost all of those went to radio industry people for $35 each.
Whoopdee doo.

A local car dealer tried giving a free HD Radio converter away with each new car sale. At the end of three months they called up the station and told them to come and pick up their supply of converters. Customers didn't want HD Radio even when it was free.

Well Bob, you know I was just trying to play it conservative and give the HD boys every benefit of the doubt. Being kind.

Even doing so, it adds up to very little. Realistically, you're right; I'd bet that the actual number of HD radios in continuous use in this country is somewhere south of 500,000. Sounds like a lot, but as far as market share goes....it's essentially nothing. That's why the best thing that can ever happen to an HD subchannel is for it to be rebroadcast on an analogue translator. It's the only way it gets more than 150 listeners at a time!

 

[davideduardo]

I also know from friends who live in Avalon that neither Crawford nor KBRT in the aftermath of the fire issued any apology, mea culpa, offer of reparations or any concern for Avalon, their COL.

Crawford and KBRT are the same thing. And, since it was a Crawford contractor who did the damage, why would Crawford apologize for something it did not do?

Let's say you call a plumber to fix a leaky valve. The plumber's truck does not have its brake set, and it rolls onto your neighbor's yard, crashing into his car and then spilling oil and chemicals onto his driveway and yard. Is that your fault? Or do you apolgize because you badly want to be co-named in the lawsuit?

 

[KB1OKL]

So preserving the integrity and quality of the analog signal (both the station's own signal and that of their neighbors) should be of paramount importance and not be sacrificed in favor of IBOC.

The fact remains that the FCC licenced KFMB to 760 in violation of its own protection rules, thus making any new technology which does meet the rules but not this shoehorned allocation unlikely to work in this case. In such a case, the improperly licensed station should bear the brunt of the problem.

Following that reasoning then the FCC licensed IBOC in violation of one of it's two harmful interference rules, hence ibiquity should bear the brunt of THAT problem.

"In the case of a radio-navigation service (like GPS) or a safety service (police, fire, distress beacons, etc.), harmful interference is anything that “endangers” its functioning."

"In the case of any other licensed service, harmful interference is whatever “seriously degrades, obstructs, or repeatedly interrupts” the service."

 

[Carmine5]

I also know from friends who live in Avalon that neither Crawford nor KBRT in the aftermath of the fire issued any apology, mea culpa, offer of reparations or any concern for Avalon, their COL.

Crawford and KBRT are the same thing. And, since it was a Crawford contractor who did the damage, why would Crawford apologize for something it did not do?

Let's say you call a plumber to fix a leaky valve. The plumber's truck does not have its brake set, and it rolls onto your neighbor's yard, crashing into his car and then spilling oil and chemicals onto his driveway and yard. Is that your fault? Or do you apolgize because you badly want to be co-named in the lawsuit?

Yes, I know Crawford and KBRT are the same. Thanks for stating the obvious. What I'm saying is that neither the individual station (and I'm assuming there are a couple of live bodies at KBRT other than the engineer) nor the parent company offered an apology to the people of Avalon.

The act of issuing such an apology for being indirectly responsible for the fire, is just good PR and, if at all possible, an attempt to restore good relations with the community. It can be done without admitting any guilt if that is what's worrying Crawford (or you). As it is, they did a terrible job managing the PR damage control from this disaster. Just ask the residents of Avalon.

Of course, I realize that describing the concept of an apology to you is like describing the color green to a man born blind.

c5

 

[Carmine5]

BTW, here is the info on KBRT's tower site move:

"New transmitter site for KBRT – we are in the early stages of developing a 27-acre piece of land in the Santa Ana Mountains of
Orange County, dealing with electrical power, NEPA, NPA, FAA, FCC, Forest Service, Orange County Zoning, O.C. Planning and many other agencies and jurisdictions."

http://www.crawfordbroadcasting.com/~cbc/Local_Oscillator/December 2009 Local Oscillator.pdf

 

[davideduardo]

Yes, I know Crawford and KBRT are the same. Thanks for stating the obvious. What I'm saying is that neither the individual station (and I'm assuming there are a couple of live bodies at KBRT other than the engineer) nor the parent company offered an apology to the people of Avalon.

An employee of the station is an employee of Crawford. I just don't get why you make it seem that one could act independent of the other.

The act of issuing such an apology for being indirectly responsible for the fire, is just good PR and, if at all possible, an attempt to restore good relations with the community.

Crawford was not indirectly responsible, and that is the core issue. I tried to make my example one that demonstrated that we are not necessarily responsible for those we contract to do some service for us, whether it is the valet parking driver, a service person installing or repairing something for us, or a tower maintenance crew that is hired to perform a job... that's whey most of us look for "bonded and insured" in the ad in the yellow pages.

The beef by residents of Avalon is with the tower crew.

It can be done without admitting any guilt if that is what's worrying Crawford (or you).

I don't even know anyone at Crawford, but have been impressed by their engineering department in several markets. And in today's world, making the appearance of sharing responsibility could have unfortunate consequences.

As it is, they did a terrible job managing the PR damage control from this disaster. Just ask the residents of Avalon.

Since John Poole put the facility on the air in the very early 50's, the "mermaid station" (a name that sprung from the station's print ads featuring a mermaid) has never really served Catalina or Avalon. The only reason the station was even located there was to permit operation on a channel that had to protect KCBS, not some desire to program for the relatively few residents of the island.

Of course, I realize that describing the concept of an apology to you is like describing the color green to a man born blind.

You are making assumptions that have nothing to do with the matter at hand... which is whether KBRT has any need to apologize for something it did not do. Or, the broader issue of whether KBRT should protect KFMB, a rule-violating interloper on a second adjacent frequency that was licensed only under pressure from the fine broadcast engineers at the State Department.

 

[Carmine5]

Yes, I know Crawford and KBRT are the same. Thanks for stating the obvious. What I'm saying is that neither the individual station (and I'm assuming there are a couple of live bodies at KBRT other than the engineer) nor the parent company offered an apology to the people of Avalon.

An employee of the station is an employee of Crawford. I just don't get why you make it seem that one could act independent of the other.

The act of issuing such an apology for being indirectly responsible for the fire, is just good PR and, if at all possible, an attempt to restore good relations with the community.

Crawford was not indirectly responsible, and that is the core issue. I tried to make my example one that demonstrated that we are not necessarily responsible for those we contract to do some service for us, whether it is the valet parking driver, a service person installing or repairing something for us, or a tower maintenance crew that is hired to perform a job... that's whey most of us look for "bonded and insured" in the ad in the yellow pages.

The beef by residents of Avalon is with the tower crew.

It can be done without admitting any guilt if that is what's worrying Crawford (or you).

I don't even know anyone at Crawford, but have been impressed by their engineering department in several markets. And in today's world, making the appearance of sharing responsibility could have unfortunate consequences.

As it is, they did a terrible job managing the PR damage control from this disaster. Just ask the residents of Avalon.

Since John Poole put the facility on the air in the very early 50's, the "mermaid station" (a name that sprung from the station's print ads featuring a mermaid) has never really served Catalina or Avalon. The only reason the station was even located there was to permit operation on a channel that had to protect KCBS, not some desire to program for the relatively few residents of the island.

This discussion is pointless and way off topic. If you want the last word so badly, you can have it. I'm done discussing it.

 

[Tom Wells]

Reminds me of the song "Lord, Mr Ford".

"Now, the average Amercian father and mother, owns one whole car, and a half another,
and I bet that half a car's a trick to drive, don't you?"

Only one sideband would be even less viable for HD decode, and as it barely works sometimes with two sidebands, why even try with one?

 

[oldiesfan6479]

KFMB was on 540, but NARBA gave 540 to Mexico and the FCC put KFMB on 760, despite prohibited overlap with KBIG. In truth, KFMB should not be on 760, but the FCC had to find them a minimally objectionable new frequency.

Yo, Old Gringo, maybe the FCC should put KFMB back on its original
frequency--1450! ;D

BTW, this frequency changing made me go through some of your
yearbooks and I noticed that after 1450, KFMB first moved to 550,
then 540 (prior to 760). Or was "550" a nefarious typo--as were
known to haunt the Taishoff tomes for years--and it actually was
540 after 1450 and before 760?