Keefe Bartels investigation into HD Radio

[TSL2]

From the website http://www.keefebartels.com, law firm Keefe Bartels have started an investigation into claims and complaints regarding HD radio. Of concern is are consumers being forced to purchase technology that doesn't work as claimed. And a case is being made that that carmakers knew the technology came with problems. They've referenced " 2007, BMW released a Service Information Bulletin describing the problems associated with HD Radio, but noted that there was no retrofit kit or procedure available."

Consumer complaints come from factory installed HD radio receivers, but the law firm is also looking closely at iBiquity, they said according to iBiquity, the “HD” does not stand for anything. Instead, iBiquity likely uses the “HD” as a "marketing device based upon consumers’ understanding and ever increasing desire for HD television." A marketing slip of the tong!

Their site also says complaints have come from the industry and consumers
and includes the following:

Radio receiver bumping station from HD to analog mode;
Echo sound heard when the radio switches between HD and analog modes;
Crackling or static sound when HD mode is inactive;
Insufficient numbers of HD Radio stations;
Loss of signal while driving in valleys or between high buildings;
Signal disruption for environmental conditions; and
Adjacent channel interference.

The net result of this could be:

iBiquity will end up paying and paying their law firms.
HD manufactures will pay and pay their law firms
Carmakers will pay and pay their law firms
Consumers may get a new radio installed free
HD radio will be branded as bad technology that nobody will touch for fear of being sued.
Before purchasing an HD product, consumers will sign and read an understanding and
accept all risks from operating the technology.
iBquity will have to change their marketing to say, may hear an improved sound quality.
Broadcasters may also be at risk of paying and paying their lawyers too.

Looks like The Emperor Wears No Clothes

 

[davideduardo]

Their site also says complaints have come from the industry and consumers
and includes the following:

I had a 2007 BMW with the HD module factory installed. I had the car mostly in the Los Angeles metro, but a lot of time in the Phoenix metro and adjacent to it, also. So I am likely as familiar with the HD capabilities as anyone, and more than most.

Radio receiver bumping station from HD to analog mode;

That is a design feature, a positive. It is similar to Multiplex FM stereo which folds back to analog if the stereo data on the subcarrier is not usable. Since the FCC determined the power level for HD, any folding back is as much due to the FCC as the system itself.

Echo sound heard when the radio switches between HD and analog modes;

That would be the individual station's fault, not the system. If properly set up, there is no time delay (echo).

Crackling or static sound when HD mode is inactive;

Never heard in 4 years and 60,000 miles of driving.

Insufficient numbers of HD Radio stations;

FM stereo took over three years to reach 100 stations when first authorized. HD has over 1500... even without counting those that may not have installed but have contracted for it.

Loss of signal while driving in valleys or between high buildings;

When they make non-attenuating hills, mountains and buildings, I want to be among the first to know about it.

Signal disruption for environmental conditions;

And inversion layers and tropo and e-skip and such are to be prevented in what manner? That affects all FM propagation, anyway.

Adjacent channel interference.

To stations that are not entitled by the terms of their licence to protection, in 99.9% of the cases (WYSL is one of the three or four exceptions, of course).

iBiquity will end up paying and paying their law firms.
HD manufactures will pay and pay their law firms
Carmakers will pay and pay their law firms
Consumers may get a new radio installed free

Or... the engineering exhibits and the FCC approvals will show that neither the system nor nor the receivers are at fault. iBiquity might countersue for its costs and damages

In some cases, the laws of physics are at fault, but appealing that is a matter for a Higher Court.

HD radio will be branded as bad technology that nobody will touch for fear of being sued. Before purchasing an HD product, consumers will sign and read an understanding and
accept all risks from operating the technology.

HD is what it is within the power levels permitted. So is FM stereo, which has very similar problems based on the lesser coverage of the stereo subcarrier. Did anyone sue over FM Stereo (Leonard Kahn would have sued, but he was busy with the AM side).

Looks like The Emperor Wears No Clothes

Looks like a law firm that might not have done the necessary due diligence, since they don't even know how to tell the difference between propagation issues, FCC regulations and the design itself.

 

[TSL2]

For professionals like you, the issues are acceptable and considered within industry norms.

However, marketing HD radio a term associated with high-def is a different issue.
The case is being made iBiquity misrepresented their product. Despite your informed opinion,
a judge with his/her personal opinion is where this could get tricky.

HD radio may now come with a warnings where the consumer must sign/excepts all risks.

Sound maybe not true HD/Cd quality.
User may experience sound loss
iBiquity is not responsible for content or lack of.
Users may experience some echo
While using HD-1 users will not notice any improved sound.

These warning were omitted from the sale pitch because consumers would think twice before spending $500.00 for an upgraded system.

Keefe Bartels is making the case for lier, lier, pants on fire! So pay me and shut up!

 

[TheBigA]

HD radio may now come with a warnings where the consumer must sign/excepts all risks.

A lawsuit wouldn't lead to such warnings. That's a very different process.

But really...what would you hope to accomplish by such warnings? A drop in sales? From what?

And speaking of warnings...have you seen the side-effects caused by some FDA-approved drugs? One could even cause suicide. Although their studies show less than 10% of the users have attempted suicide as a result of using the drug. Now THAT might be cause for a lawsuit. A relative of mine was part of a class action lawsuit against a drug a few years ago, and it went nowhere. No money, no warnings, and the product is still on the market.

Keefe Bartels is making the case for lier, lier, pants on fire! So pay me and shut up!

Hater, hater, see ya later.

And it's spelled: Liar. Genius.

Look: This product has been on the market for a while and with all the complaints on this board and others, no radio stations have sued for the interference it causes. THAT is the most likely approach for a lawsuit because it's clearly in the FCC rules. A consumer lawsuit is frivolous, because you have to show harm. Contrary to what you say, no one was "forced to purchase" an HD radio.

In any case, let me know when they bring this to court. If this is the best they can come up with, I don't expect it to get that far.

 

[gr8oldies]

I can see the TV ad now: Are you dissatisfied with your HD radio? You may be entitled to compensation. Call the law firm of Dewey Cheatam and Howe at 1-800-669-BAKY"

 

[KeithE4]

I can see the TV ad now: Are you dissatisfied with your HD radio? You may be entitled to compensation. Call the law firm of Dewey Cheatam and Howe at 1-800-669-BAKY"

I thought their number was 1-800-SHYSTER. ;D

 

[audioguy]

I think it was wrong for Ibiquity to call their system "HD" radio. There is nothing about "HD Radio" that is "high definition". This appears to have been a deliberate attempt to capitalize on the public's familiarity with the term's association with High Definition TV broadcasting.

 

[TheBigA]

Yep, and we should sue Sony for trying to sell "digital headphones."

I'm not kidding. Go to any store. They sell headphones that are "digital ready."

I think iBiquity got out of trouble by saying "HD doesn't stand for anything." What they said 8 years ago doesn't matter any more.

 

[audioguy]

Yep, and we should sue Sony for trying to sell "digital headphones."

I'm not kidding. Go to any store. They sell headphones that are "digital ready."

I think iBiquity got out of trouble by saying "HD doesn't stand for anything." What they said 8 years ago doesn't matter any more.

Yes, but just try selling a "McDonald style" hamburger. It's not like you're claiming it's from McDonald's, you're just saying it's that type of hamburger. How long would you get away with that?

Same deal with "IBOC". Although it wasn't used as a trademark, I believe it was used to mislead the FCC and the industry into thinking that the digital information is actually transmitted "on channel" when it's not: it's transmitted OFF channel; meaning on your neighbor's channel.

 

[TheBigA]

Yes, but just try selling a "McDonald style" hamburger. It's not like you're claiming it's from McDonald's, you're just saying it's that type of hamburger. How long would you get away with that?

Not the same thing. The letters "HD" are not copyrighted or exclusive for use with digital products.

 

[davideduardo]

HD radio may now come with a warnings where the consumer must sign/excepts all risks.
Sound maybe not true HD/Cd quality.

That's enormously hard to define. "CD Quality" ranges from highly clipped crap done in consumer quality studios to very fine recordings done by pros, all available at retail. So the sound of FM HD depends on the source material, but well engineered HD 1 channels sound better than the analog channel they must simulcast.

Of course, consumers are buying few CDs, so a comparison with iTunes quality is more appropriate than one with the near obsolete CD.

User may experience sound loss

Gee, that is like blaming Stromberg Carleson for not being able to hear the Jack Benny Show in the 40's when there is a thunderstorm. Or blaming Sony when your favoite station gets trashed by an inversion layer on your $800 receiver in the 80's.

Get back to me when you never have a cell phone call dropped.

iBiquity is not responsible for content or lack of.

Since when is the receiver manufacturer responsible for whether you like what you can get on the radio?

This one is absurd beyond belief.

Users may experience some echo

How is the manufacturer of a receiver or components of same or the car manufacturer responsible for technical issues at a station? Echo is a station level engineering shortcoming that can be avoided... stations try not to go off the air, but they do... stations leave dead air by accident... they used to play 45's at 33, too. Stuff happens.

While using HD-1 users will not notice any improved sound.

Generally, the HD1 channel always sounds better than the analog channel... just losing the analog preemphasis curve introduces some advantages.

 

[TSL2]

Believe what you want. But, the lawyers are making the case for misrepresentation.

You as a radio pro knows and understands the business, you get it, congratulations! But when a company claims CD quality or uses the term HD to hook people into believing high-def, consumer expectations are very high. Perception is everything, so the consumers associate CD/HD from past experiences, such as playing a CD or watching HD television from home. Nice!...

I'm positive the nice sales person at BMW never said you'll notice some audio dropouts, silence as the signal is lost or echo, because the radio station engineer is clueless and lazy!.

It's like this: HD is the next best thing with radio. You get HD/CD quality sound with no monthly fees. Isn't that great! "Shaking head up and down.."

Now just sign here X________________________$60,0000.

The industry, car manufactures and iBiquity over promised and undelivered.
It ain't 1970 anymore, because of technology the bar is high and consumers expect more.
I'm sorry it is what it is...

 

[TheBigA]

Believe what you want. But, the lawyers are making the case for misrepresentation.

To whom? Themselves? People do that here on this board every day. You see what a change it's made.

Until they find a representative who has been injured in some way, this won't go to court.

Perception is everything, so the consumers associate CD/HD from past experiences, such as playing a CD or watching HD television from home. Nice!...

You're talking about the court of public opinion. Not an actual court of law.

Personally, I associate HD with Harley Davidson. But that's just me.

I'm positive the nice sales person at BMW never said you'll notice some audio dropouts, silence as the signal is lost or echo, because the radio station engineer is clueless and lazy!.

If the BMW salesman is like most salesmen, the radio isn't the selling point in the car.

By the way, I don't know if you've ever bought a car, but they usually don't tell you the bad stuff. That's for the buyer to do is own homework. I'm actually shopping for a car now. You think I trust a salesman to tell me the truth? Nope. If you do, you get what you deserve. May the buyer beware.

 

[TSL2]

"If the BMW salesman is like most salesmen, the radio isn't the selling point in the car."

You're right, but mostly wrong. Consumers buy for their reasons, the gadgets ie the radio adds to the sizzle, people buy cars on emotion. You may be different. Let's be honest ok, what commissioned salesman is going to say, HD radio sucks? The customer knows more about the car than the salesperson. And any good salesperson will feed on the emotions and will hype up the audio system, as in now with high-def radio. Also, the salesperson is paid a higher commission on the goodies.

"court of public opinion. Not an actual court of law." The court of law is based on interpretation of the law, it's not so black and white.

An investigation takes time and money, the lawyers obviously sniff money and blood.
All it takes is one rouge lawyer to inflict a great deal of pain, suffering and negative press.
The bottom feeders will jump into the swamp looking for a meal too.


This may go no where, but you bet auto manufactures who plan years in advance will take a close look at the case. Just adding a new device costs manufactures hundreds and thousands in added costs to sale. Any whiff of something negative or lawyers is enough to make vendors jump ship!

 

[TheBigA]

Consumers buy for their reasons, the gadgets ie the radio adds to the sizzle, people buy cars on emotion.

Oh come on! Are you new to this board? What emotion is driving HD Radio? Please be serious. Do you really think HD radio is the reason people buy a BMW? Have you ever bought a BMW?

An investigation takes time and money, the lawyers obviously sniff money and blood.
All it takes is one rouge lawyer to inflict a great deal of pain, suffering and negative press.

Other than the HD Radio web site, all there's been is negative press. Did you just wake up yesterday?

Any whiff of something negative or lawyers is enough to make vendors jump ship!

Once again, where have you been? It's already been documented that car companies aren't pushing these things. According to Tom Ray, the Ford salesmen don't even know what they are.

It's a greedy lawyer. If he was coming after you, you'd cry foul. They're based in New Jersey! What more do you need to know?

 

[davideduardo]

"If the BMW salesman is like most salesmen, the radio isn't the selling point in the car."

You're right, but mostly wrong. Consumers buy for their reasons, the gadgets ie the radio adds to the sizzle, people buy cars on emotion. You may be different. Let's be honest ok, what commissioned salesman is going to say, HD radio sucks? The customer knows more about the car than the salesperson. And any good salesperson will feed on the emotions and will hype up the audio system, as in now with high-def radio. Also, the salesperson is paid a higher commission on the goodies.

I got an '11 at the end of May, and I did not know it had HD standard until I asked... whereupon the salesperson had to check on the computer. I was pitched on the diesel option, the seat upgrades, the rear seat entertainment, the sport suspension. I was not pitched on satellite radio, even. Likely that is because the satellite, even if it makes an extra few bucks for the dealer, the sales effort was made on the options that cost several thousand dollars and up.

You really don't get why people buy cars like that. Or the mood the buyer is in when making the purchase.

And there is no commission on standard equpment.

 

[Chuck]

It's a greedy lawyer. If he was coming after you, you'd cry foul. They're based in New Jersey! What more do you need to know?

Yeah, but those attorneys file suits in places like Marshall or Tyler, Texas, where one of the big businesses is suing people. Patent law is the local specialty, but this is close enough to be successful. These juries have quite a reputation for siding with the little guy. Check it out, if you don't believe me.

The right attorney, with the right jury, could spell big trouble for HD radio. These guys may or may not be the ones, but somebody will do it.

 

[TheBigA]

The right attorney, with the right jury, could spell big trouble for HD radio.

As if HD Radio isn't in trouble already?

Don't you guys read this board?

I've read a lot of theories about an FCC that was bribed and a Congress that was bought off. So now the solution is a greedy lawyer going to Tyler TX to find a biased jury. And we call this the land of opportunity? Aren't we just a little ashamed of ourselves?

Look...if this thing REALLY sucks, you don't need the right lawyer with the right jury. Unless you think it's really been a huge success and everyone is clammoring for HD radio.

 

[Chuck]

The right attorney, with the right jury, could spell big trouble for HD radio.

Look...if this thing REALLY sucks, you don't need the right lawyer with the right jury. Unless you think it's really been a huge success and everyone is clammoring for HD radio.

I think this is a very legitimate issue, so I've opened a new thread about it.

 

[TSL2]

"If the BMW salesman is like most salesmen, the radio isn't the selling point in the car."

You're right, but mostly wrong. Consumers buy for their reasons, the gadgets ie the radio adds to the sizzle, people buy cars on emotion. You may be different. Let's be honest ok, what commissioned salesman is going to say, HD radio sucks? The customer knows more about the car than the salesperson. And any good salesperson will feed on the emotions and will hype up the audio system, as in now with high-def radio. Also, the salesperson is paid a higher commission on the goodies.

I got an '11 at the end of May, and I did not know it had HD standard until I asked... whereupon the salesperson had to check on the computer. I was pitched on the diesel option, the seat upgrades, the rear seat entertainment, the sport suspension. I was not pitched on satellite radio, even. Likely that is because the satellite, even if it makes an extra few bucks for the dealer, the sales effort was made on the options that cost several thousand dollars and up.

You really don't get why people buy cars like that. Or the mood the buyer is in when making the purchase.

And there is no commission on standard equpment.

You the radio guru/expert/and HD Kool-Aid drinker didn't know BMW came with HD? Come on will ya! What does that say about HD? BMW? and you!

While you were pitched various car features, your real motivation in buying was how it made you feel, what it represented in your mind. 90% of all purchases are emotions, logic follows after the sale i.e. it's good for business and my image.