Keefe Bartels investigation into HD Radio

[Savage]

When plaintiffs file a big-bucks consumer lawsuit, of course they look for a court which is more likely to be sympathetic. It's called "forum shopping." It's done every day all over the country in matters both civil and criminal.

When a jury is selected, lawyers go through a process called "voir dire." They naturally want a panel which includes as many jurors likely to be receptive and sympathetic as possible, and naturally reject any which might be prejudiced against their cause. A couple of weeks ago I was selected for jury duty in a DWI case and I got tossed because I knew the assistant prosecutor.

Whether or not these are valid practices depends on your point of view. You could say it shows how screwed up our justice system is. Or you could see it as cumbersomely magnificent, and why we have a better and more impartial process. Is it wrong to forum-shop? I dunno; the defendants can always move for a change in venue. Are we stacking juries? Both sides participate in voir dire, and both plaintiffs and defendants get to pick and reject.

Back to HD: I agree, the system is in big trouble. I agree, the Keefe Bartells investigation looking for plaintiffs is more bad news for HD. And no, I don't think they're going to shrug their shoulders and go away. They're trying to get to the statutory minimum threshold for number of claimants to bring a class action. If that happens, the suit will be filed....bet on it.

 

[davideduardo]

You the radio guru/expert/and HD Kool-Aid drinker didn't know BMW came with HD? Come on will ya! What does that say about HD? BMW? and you!

I ordered the car the day it was announced at the New York auto show, and there were no full spec sheets avaialble online at the time. So, I asked about HD, and after cosiderable checking, was told it was standard. My assumption is that BMW considers HD at least as important as the weather band which is also included, free.

At some point, maybe in the late 70's, I learned I did not have to ask if the car radio had FM, either. It was considered standard on the makes I was considering.

Just as I don't ask "does it come with tires" I guess I should no longer even ask about HD as it will be a standard feature. I was more concerned about asking in regards to the spare tire, which is not a standard feature.

While you were pitched various car features, your real motivation in buying was how it made you feel, what it represented in your mind. 90% of all purchases are emotions, logic follows after the sale i.e. it's good for business and my image.

In the case of a BMW, it's about how it drives. And, I should have mentioned, the customer is "given options" and not "pitched" as they might be in a Ford dealer. The difference is in a number of things, starting with a test drive without the annoying sales person in the car... "take it out for an hour or so"... so you tend to see the vehicle as a single thing rather than a list of parts and options.

But the point continues to be that BMW decided to "give me" HD as part of the audio package that is standard with the car. That does not sound like a car manufacturer that has had trouble with HD to the extent of having second thoughts.

 

[TSL2]

I agree BMW makes a great car and the handling is nice.

I also read playboy for the article, they have great writers.

 

[TheBigA]

They're trying to get to the statutory minimum threshold for number of claimants to bring a class action. If that happens, the suit will be filed....bet on it.

I see lots of these "investigatory" lawsuits promoted in various ways. Sometimes a firm will actually advertise on TV, looking for claimants. Very few of them make it to court.

But it's not just a minimum threshold that's needed. They need to prove harm was done, and it was done in a uniform way. That all claimants were harmed by the same product the same way. Just looking at this article, that will be tough to prove. The list of items alone points out that different people experienced different things. And a lot of it, as pointed out, was caused by federal regulations. The end result might be to change federal regulations and empower HD Radio even more. Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants?

These guys are parasites. If they were coming after you, you'd be furious. This is simply a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

 

[Tom Wells]

How much for a car for a car with no spare tire standard? Priceless!

Can't wait to hear how they justify no spare tire. THERE'S a safety issue and asking for trouble.

Instead of changing the tire and removing yourself (and car) from danger and removing your disabled auto from being a hazard to others, now it can just sit there in danger until a TOW truck comes?
Um, if they don't consider a spare tire standard, wouldn't they next be hitting you next for a jack?

"You wanna jack with that?"

No thanks, I like the idea of running along on a flat for 20 miles, and tearing up a $2000 alloy rim.

 

[davideduardo]

How much for a car for a car with no spare tire standard? Priceless!

Can't wait to hear how they justify no spare tire. THERE'S a safety issue and asking for trouble.

A number of BMW models don't have a standard spare because they come with run flat tires, which in theory would not have to be changed on the road. In my expereience, that is true.

Instead of changing the tire and removing yourself (and car) from danger and removing your disabled auto from being a hazard to others, now it can just sit there in danger until a TOW truck comes?

Nope, you just slow a little (no more than about 60) and try to get to a tire shop in a few hundred miles or so.

The big advantage is that, with a solid inner core, there are no blowouts, which is a major safety feature.

No thanks, I like the idea of running along on a flat for 20 miles, and tearing up a $2000 alloy rim.

Try "running along on the core for 1,000 miles" so you don't have to stop in the rain or snow or in a dangerous location to change a flat.

 

[davideduardo]

I agree BMW makes a great car and the handling is nice.

I also read playboy for the article, they have great writers.

That's a monumental non sequitur, even for you.

 

[Tom Wells]

[[/quote]

A number of BMW models don't have a standard spare because they come with run flat tires, which in theory would not have to be changed on the road. In my expereience, that is true.

Instead of changing the tire and removing yourself (and car) from danger and removing your disabled auto from being a hazard to others, now it can just sit there in danger until a TOW truck comes?

Nope, you just slow a little (no more than about 60) and try to get to a tire shop in a few hundred miles or so.

The big advantage is that, with a solid inner core, there are no blowouts, which is a major safety feature.

No thanks, I like the idea of running along on a flat for 20 miles, and tearing up a $2000 alloy rim.

Try "running along on the core for 1,000 miles" so you don't have to stop in the rain or snow or in a dangerous location to change a flat.

But then you are locked into only buying "run flat" tires.

I not only have a spare and a proper bumper jack, but always carry tire plugs and a hand pump so it's more likely I just plug the tire, pump it back up and continue on.
When I used to drive in the steel mill threre were lots of sharp steel chop scrap pieces on the roads, despite the continuous
driving around of an electromagnet truck to suck 'em up.
The tires got so filthy that it was a lot cleaner to plug them than change a tire.

In 33 years of driving I've never had a "blowout", which is usually a result of running tires at too low a pressure and overheating the sidewalls. Once in 1978 I must have driven into a KNIFE blade poking straight
up out the road, judging by the size and length of the cut. But I was only going 25 mph.
It got me right outside the steel belt area. This one I did have to change and replace.

Seems to me BMW is trying to get away with having a trunk that's a little too small.
And I would not trust driving again on a tire that has been run flat for over 2 miles, let alone 50.
An immediate repair or going to a spare eliminates further damage to the tire.

Is it just assumed that once you've had a flat, you're going to buy a new tire?

 

[davideduardo]

But then you are locked into only buying "run flat" tires.

To an extent, the suspension is tuned for them. And they are not an option, they are standard on quite a few models... X5, 3 series, and I think the new 5's at least.

Seems to me BMW is trying to get away with having a trunk that's a little too small.

The trunk space (in sedans) or under cargo area (for SUVs) is there... its just that many people don't even want a spare since the chances of ever needing it are really minimal unless you are driving in Afghanistan.

And I would not trust driving again on a tire that has been run flat for over 2 miles, let alone 50. An immediate repair or going to a spare eliminates further damage to the tire.
Is it just assumed that once you've had a flat, you're going to buy a new tire?

Run flats are not generally repairable. I have repaired one with a very slow leak from a smallish nail, but anything else warrants replacement. Non-dealer retailers sell tire replacement policies that make this a quite reasonable expense. With the number of fatal blowouts followed by accidents we have in SoCal (often due to junk falling on the freeway) I actually decided against several vehicles because they did not have a run flat option or the suspension was not going to like them.

 

[TVradioguru]

My new 7 series BMW also has run flat tires. They seem to handle better than my 5 series did, but that may be the car too. The 7 series is a heavier car, so perhaps the tires are indeed just better.

Tom I'm pleased to read they you're prepared with a jack and spare tire. Me? I'll not be jacking up a car risking my life of being run over on a shoulder by some minivan driving soccer mom texting her friend. I will drive to a tire dealer and have them replace the tire while I enjoy a cup of coffee in the waiting room.

HD Radio came standard in my 750i and previously in my M5 series. Again it may be the difference in antenna or guts of the radio..(er sorry, I mean entertainment system), but the 5 series HD portion seemed to work a little better. I've noticed when on the fringe of HD reception, there is more frequent switching between analog or HD. It isn't that big of a deal really. Certainly nothing I would consider joining a class action situation.

I'm with David.. I didn't spend additional money for HD in my new car, so I have no right to a refund.

 

[landtuna]

I didn't spend additional money for HD in my new car, so I have no right to a refund.

Oh, somewhere, somehow you did. ;D

 

[davideduardo]

I didn't spend additional money for HD in my new car, so I have no right to a refund.

Oh, somewhere, somehow you did. ;D

I never sit in the back seat, so you could say I overpaid for the cup holder and the separately controlled AC there... the added cost of the HD chip on one of the modules is probably less than the diesel I used getting the car home.

 

[TSL2]

As average person who purchased a new BMW, with HD on board how would you rate the radio experience. Coverage, programming, technical, dropouts and sync/echo.

I purchased the little insignia radio. When HD locks I can hear some sound improvement and stereo separation. Keep in mind the antenna is build into the headphones.
The listening experience is frustrating, listening to the back and fourth from HD to analog is annoying. And the sync/echo adds to my dislike. As far as programming it's really more of the same, nothing I can't live without. Also, unless HD is properly locked scanning HD/2/3/4 is nearly impossible. I'd give HD an Average to poor user rating.



1 Best

2

4 Average

5

6 poor

 

[TheBigA]

Also, unless HD is properly locked scanning HD/2/3/4 is nearly impossible. I'd give HD an Average to poor user rating.

Are the stations you're tuning in operating at maximum power as permitted by the FCC?

 

[Tom Wells]

Having a real hard time here understanding the concept of disposable tires.
Such wastefulness is incomprehensible to me, as I've always had to work too hard for what I've earned.
Think-think-think---No, It still doesn't compute,
any more than adding sidebands to a radio signal which can only create undesirable noises in demodulation.

 

[davideduardo]

Having a real hard time here understanding the concept of disposable tires.

The issue is not whether the tire is "disposable" or not. The issue is that in today's world, there are a lot of places where it is unsafe to stop and change a tire. The run flat tire makes it possible to remove the car to a safer or more secure location. The cost of that security is that the tire can not be repaired. The secondary benefit is that it will not blow out if punctured, another real danger on today's roads which are deteriorating faster than they can be repaired.

Returning this discussion to radio, I was chatting last week about how we used to repair individual components on circuit boards. Today, with miniaturization and surface mount fabrication, we simply throw out the board and put a whole new one in. Disposable electronics.

 

[Chuck]

Returning this discussion to radio, I was chatting last week about how we used to repair individual components on circuit boards. Today, with miniaturization and surface mount fabrication, we simply throw out the board and put a whole new one in. Disposable electronics.

That's just the way it is. I'd much rather replace an expensive tire than be injured, or killed, trying to save a few bucks.

 

[Tom Wells]

Huh....Well, someday I may live in a world with so much money. But not yet.
Not "trying" to save money...having no choice but to save money.
Perhaps the issue is not so much road conditions as trying to use silly 50 series profile tires, which are so easily damaged.
In Chicago, the roads have never been good enough to use them. Even usng 60 series tires is asking for rim and tire destruction. The whole point of the sidewalll was absorb the blows of potholes without failure...

 

[KB1OKL]

My car cost less than half of what a new BMW costs but it too doesn't have a spare. I (think) it came with a can of fix-a-flat and a compressor! I was not happy about that, will pick up a rim and a tire sooner or later, probably the day after I get a flat on some major highway.
I can remember run flat tires from 30 or 40 years ago, for some reason I want to say that Chrysler Imperials had them.

 

[tomservo]

Also, unless HD is properly locked scanning HD/2/3/4 is nearly impossible. I'd give HD an Average to poor user rating.

Are the stations you're tuning in operating at maximum power as permitted by the FCC?

Of nearly equal importance to that questions, I'd ask if the poster is within that magical 60 dBu protected contour line shown on the FCC's web site. That seems to be the absolute edge of HD radio reception with my portable, so I would hope a decent car tuner would pull HD out to about that distance. And that's on the lower power HD stations. I only have one that I know upped power and it's noticeably more solid out to that point.

This is why I would be against any rimshot FM doing HD, because it'll be putting a weak signal over the target area, where the population is.