From today's Orange County Register
http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/homepage/abox/article_1361504.php
http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/homepage/abox/article_1361504.php
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KFI tower rebuild makes some unhappy
- Thread starter SuperRadioFan
- Start date
well if a pilot hits that darn tower on a clear day, he is not paying attention to business and by golly needs to be looking at his maps.and those in the tower might do a better job of warning pilots taking off and landing.some pilots take a casual attitude about flying, especailly those small Cessna's ,and carelessness
will hang your ass out to dry most of the time.as i recall most crashes are pilot error.
will hang your ass out to dry most of the time.as i recall most crashes are pilot error.
D
dbdigital
Guest
SuperRadioFan said:
Clear Channel whining about losing 25% of their listeners because of the shorter tower is a blatant case of putting cash above safety. KFI is not the only station required to broadcast emergency alerts.
Pilots have complained for years that the KFI tower was a hazard and a disaster waiting to happen.
db
"Clear Channel officials say, that tower isn't tall enough to produce a clear signal. It reaches only about 75 percent of the 18.5 million potential listeners it was able to reach before the crash."
If we analyze this statement they made, the key word is "potential". As most of us know, the current KFI signal is still among the Top 2 AM signals of the LA area and to make such a claim is misleading and disingenious. And as far as ad rates go, their audience as measured by Arbitron has not declined as a result of the lower power tower, henceforth the ad rates didn't decline either.
If we analyze this statement they made, the key word is "potential". As most of us know, the current KFI signal is still among the Top 2 AM signals of the LA area and to make such a claim is misleading and disingenious. And as far as ad rates go, their audience as measured by Arbitron has not declined as a result of the lower power tower, henceforth the ad rates didn't decline either.
dbdigital said:
1. KFI was there first.
2. KFI is the primary EAS station, and the only (former) 1-A clear channel in the state.
3. Finding a location for an AM is next to impossible today in LA. Five or 6 CPs have been relinquished due to lack of a place to put the towers.
4. Read #1 again.
OldGringo said:
David I agree with you, but according to the writer's "Timeline"---
"Timeline
1928: Fullerton Airport is founded.
1931: KFI builds its first radio towers in La Mirada. The original site includes two 400-foot-tall towers."
Are you incorrect about KFI being first?? Anyway like I said I agree with you and the towers are going up there again.
Happy Thanksgiving to you
and Happy Thanksgiving to all!
GOOD, im glad they will have to have a smaller tower.
If they would have put up the strobe lights and the shiny balls on the wires, THEY WOULDNT HAVE HAD THIS PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. They were complained to MANY MANY times about the danger AND THEY CHOSE NOT TO DO ANYTHING.
You reap what you sew.
RADIO is supposed to act in the PUBLICs best interest, NOT the SHAREHOLDERS.
If they would have put up the strobe lights and the shiny balls on the wires, THEY WOULDNT HAVE HAD THIS PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. They were complained to MANY MANY times about the danger AND THEY CHOSE NOT TO DO ANYTHING.
You reap what you sew.
RADIO is supposed to act in the PUBLICs best interest, NOT the SHAREHOLDERS.
D
dbdigital
Guest
OldGringo said:
No need to re-read anything. The reality is, is that the airport exists, the previous antenna was a hazard, and KFI still covers it's market. Now is the perfect time to work out a solution to accomodate both; or does the possibility of more lost lives mean nothing?
As for KFI being the primary EAS station, I believe that honor goes to KFWB. KNX is also a designated EAS station.
db
dbdigital said:
The aiurport came after the KFI transmitter facility, if I am not mistaken. There has to be some respect for prior usage. And there are, so far, no laws to protect stupid people from themselves.
KFI must, to retain its 1-A (former designation) clear channel status, maintain the radiation efficiency of a half-wave tower. They can not get that with a shorter tower, and finding another site is nearly impossible in Los Angeles, as 1500 has discovered... and as the defunct 570 and 980 cps for 50 kw have shown (amng many others).
We, and many other stations I know, monitor KFI. KFWB does not have a good enough signal in many parts of the LA market. For EAS to work effectively, particularly in any kind of emergency, KFI vastly above all other stations as a primary source. Per the County EAS plan, KFI and KNX are both LP1, and KFWB is an LP2. KNX's signal is not as reliable inland of LA, so most staitons monitor KFI.
halloaaryn said:
KFI was operating in strict compliance with FCC and FAA rules, and the lighting system in effect at the time was the one required by the authorities. Should the authorities have determined (how the heck is KFI going to make an ATC decision on its own? It's a radio station, for pete's sake.) that a new lighting system was needed, they would have notified KFI and told them what to do.
If there were any prior complaints, KFI would not have received them... it would have been aviation officials. If they determined KFI was in compliance, then KFI can not be held responsible. Don't you think there would have been a lawsuit about the tower if it was not in compliance? There wasn't because the operation was legitimate and legal.
Jeesh.
Again KFI was there before the airport. If anyone should move, it is the airport.
Z
zumahans
Guest
KFI is no longer "Keeping Farmers Informed"
What a ridiculous pile of statements.
First, the airport WAS there first.
Second, the greater public safety is the issue, not who was there first. KFI's desire for signal out in other states at night, and Death Valley by day, is not Fullerton's problem.
Third, the tower was a hazard. Its lighting was not state of the art, it was the bear legal minimum. That crash was an accident waiting to happen.
Fourth, EAS is handled by a multiplicity of sources. KFI's signal of not essential. And the "improved" signal afforded by the unsafe tower certainly has no EAS VALUE.
Fifth, times and land uses change. A pre-existing land use that becomes an unsafe menace because of urban growth is still a menace to public safety.
Sixth, KFI's choice of alternate tower height is a reasonable and simple. Or, it can move. Or, it can diplex. Or, it can tophat. None of those choices are as optimal as the engineers want? Tough, they are all reasonable.
Oh, the competition (CBS) owns the other stick? Too bad, that's not the airport's problem.
The taller KFI tower was a predicted and proven public nuisance. The changing land use pattern around the old tower does not mean the owner gets a pass on correcting the nuisance. It would be negligence if the city allows KFI to re-erect the nuisance.
What a ridiculous pile of statements.
First, the airport WAS there first.
Second, the greater public safety is the issue, not who was there first. KFI's desire for signal out in other states at night, and Death Valley by day, is not Fullerton's problem.
Third, the tower was a hazard. Its lighting was not state of the art, it was the bear legal minimum. That crash was an accident waiting to happen.
Fourth, EAS is handled by a multiplicity of sources. KFI's signal of not essential. And the "improved" signal afforded by the unsafe tower certainly has no EAS VALUE.
Fifth, times and land uses change. A pre-existing land use that becomes an unsafe menace because of urban growth is still a menace to public safety.
Sixth, KFI's choice of alternate tower height is a reasonable and simple. Or, it can move. Or, it can diplex. Or, it can tophat. None of those choices are as optimal as the engineers want? Tough, they are all reasonable.
Oh, the competition (CBS) owns the other stick? Too bad, that's not the airport's problem.
The taller KFI tower was a predicted and proven public nuisance. The changing land use pattern around the old tower does not mean the owner gets a pass on correcting the nuisance. It would be negligence if the city allows KFI to re-erect the nuisance.
Z
zumahans
Guest
By the way, the article mentioned that the death tower was built in 1948, long after the airport was there. How high was the original antennna?
zumahans said:
It's my understanding that the tower that was felled by the off course pilot was a replacement, c. 1948, for an even earlier one at that location. The early one had two towers in a classic early "T" radiator configuration where the towers were non-radiating, and the vertical and "top" of the T radiated.
The KFI tower has been a conforming half wave since KFI was licensed as a 1-A clear, first as a T and then as a full half wave vertical.
http://www.oldradio.com/archives/stations/LA/kfipix.htm shows the KFI transmitter site in Buena Park in 1931, when KFI moved to that location in order to increase to 50 kw from its previously employed 5 kw.
A station of its class must maintain the electrical characteristics of a half wave radiator, or lose its classification.
Re: KFI is no longer "Keeping Farmers Informed"
Until the mid-30's, it was essentially a place for crop dusters to land. It also dubled as a pig farm and a sewage treatment field.
KFI has no desire to cover other states. It has a desire to cover the LA metro and the surrounding area (LA DMA). There is no money in nights, local or otherwise. The issue is that KFI is the only 1 A clear in the state, and it is our EAS primary station, too.
As to safety, the site operated fine with no incidents since 1931 until one bad or distracted pilot made an error. Hey, let's tear down bfridge abutments, winding mountain roads, etc., because someone might be hurt!
A community is more than isolated parts. We need radio stations, we need airports, we need all kinds of things and people. You can't just sweep one away because of a single incident.
The FAA at any time could have required different lighting. It did not. Mt. Wilson is a hazard, too. Why don't you have it moved or torn down?
And, since you are fond of poking fun at my typing, I do have to ask whether the infestation of grizzlies currently ravaging Buena Park is the reason for having a "bear minimum" requirement?
Actually, the current signal is the equivalent of about 10 kw. It is not enough to penetrate some buildings, and is also not enough for reliable emergency service in the periphery of the LA area, where people would need it in the event of evacuations. EAS on AM is about the simplest and most effective system. FMs are hampered by having most of them up on Mt Wilson where in many emergencies they would be inaccessable, for example. And wired infrastructure, like cable, is the most fragile of all.
There is a reason why every EAS plan at the city level, state level and federal level speaks first of the P1 AM EAS station before any alternative information sources.
For a variety of reasons, you do not want the primary EAS station to be located in a less than optimal transmitter site. KNX, for example, is on a liquefaction zone. Good luck for that tower in an earthquake. Similarly, KHJ and KABC and KWKW, near central LA, are on moderate liquefaction zones. KFI is at a location where it could be run from the site in an emergency, something many other stations could not do given accessability.
KFI has already gotten approval from all but FUllerton on using a non-conforming tower with top loading. This will give the equivalent of 1-A minimum field strength. There is no Base Insulated tower tall enough for KFI in LA. There is no suitable land anywhere in LA for the station (as a half-dozen returned CPs attest to). All that is needed is the Fullerton folks' approval of the use permit, as the FAA, FCC and everyone else are on board for the rebuild.
There is no other conforming tower within several hundred miles, in fact. If you refer to KNX's tower, it is over 30 degrees too short to be conforming, is in a horrible location, and is on top or a liquefaction zone (Remember the 1933 Long Beach quake?... that whole zone liquefied.).
zumahans said:
Until the mid-30's, it was essentially a place for crop dusters to land. It also dubled as a pig farm and a sewage treatment field.
KFI has no desire to cover other states. It has a desire to cover the LA metro and the surrounding area (LA DMA). There is no money in nights, local or otherwise. The issue is that KFI is the only 1 A clear in the state, and it is our EAS primary station, too.
As to safety, the site operated fine with no incidents since 1931 until one bad or distracted pilot made an error. Hey, let's tear down bfridge abutments, winding mountain roads, etc., because someone might be hurt!
A community is more than isolated parts. We need radio stations, we need airports, we need all kinds of things and people. You can't just sweep one away because of a single incident.
The FAA at any time could have required different lighting. It did not. Mt. Wilson is a hazard, too. Why don't you have it moved or torn down?
And, since you are fond of poking fun at my typing, I do have to ask whether the infestation of grizzlies currently ravaging Buena Park is the reason for having a "bear minimum" requirement?
Actually, the current signal is the equivalent of about 10 kw. It is not enough to penetrate some buildings, and is also not enough for reliable emergency service in the periphery of the LA area, where people would need it in the event of evacuations. EAS on AM is about the simplest and most effective system. FMs are hampered by having most of them up on Mt Wilson where in many emergencies they would be inaccessable, for example. And wired infrastructure, like cable, is the most fragile of all.
There is a reason why every EAS plan at the city level, state level and federal level speaks first of the P1 AM EAS station before any alternative information sources.
For a variety of reasons, you do not want the primary EAS station to be located in a less than optimal transmitter site. KNX, for example, is on a liquefaction zone. Good luck for that tower in an earthquake. Similarly, KHJ and KABC and KWKW, near central LA, are on moderate liquefaction zones. KFI is at a location where it could be run from the site in an emergency, something many other stations could not do given accessability.
KFI has already gotten approval from all but FUllerton on using a non-conforming tower with top loading. This will give the equivalent of 1-A minimum field strength. There is no Base Insulated tower tall enough for KFI in LA. There is no suitable land anywhere in LA for the station (as a half-dozen returned CPs attest to). All that is needed is the Fullerton folks' approval of the use permit, as the FAA, FCC and everyone else are on board for the rebuild.
There is no other conforming tower within several hundred miles, in fact. If you refer to KNX's tower, it is over 30 degrees too short to be conforming, is in a horrible location, and is on top or a liquefaction zone (Remember the 1933 Long Beach quake?... that whole zone liquefied.).
Z
zumahans
Guest
No, unlike you, I do not remember the 1933 quake. But I have read a lot about it....
And I surely have better things to do on a family holiday than talk to a sad fellow who seems to have nothing else to do other than argue ....
Happy Thanksgiving, David. Time to turn off your computer, now, and talk to people.
And I surely have better things to do on a family holiday than talk to a sad fellow who seems to have nothing else to do other than argue ....
Happy Thanksgiving, David. Time to turn off your computer, now, and talk to people.
D
dbdigital
Guest
OldGringo said:
I'm looking at the list of California EAS LP-1 stations right now. It lists KFI, KNX and KFWB as LP-1 stations with KFWB as the National Primary.
As for tower sites for new AM services, Catalina Island seems to be the current choice.
db
While I often disagree with David's views on cow-towing programming to the demographic changes in SoCal, I want to also give credit where credit is due. Rebuilding the KFI tower as-was would not be a torrid (or is that horrid) development. The station historically serviced the community in a unique capacity as the primary EAS source and the Western US's primary clear channel facility.OldGringo said:
As a society we shouldn't bow to the lowest common denominator (stupid people) but we should demand that the FCC mandate much higher standards for lighting and other elements that enhance safety and alleviate the concerns that the Fullerton airport administrators have of a repeat of the 2004 crash.
BTW...David, where are you located? You indicated that it is 5p there, and Thanksgiving is not celebrated. I can tell you that here at USC it is high noon, and all over the Southland Turkeys are basting, kids are playing, and the Macy's parade is on NBC.
dbdigital said:
Catalina Island was looked at by KFI in 1947, just before rebuilding the antenna at the current site where they had been since 1931. They decided against it, as the island itself has horrible ground conductivity and the signal would have been worse than that of KNX on the coast due to a "bad low conductivity start" and the attenuation of ground to the more inland areas they wanted to cover.
Today, there would be no way to put up a tower that is footwet on Catalina, as the shoreline is mostly protected and the areas facing LA are rocky and sandy, a really bad place for a tower.
KFI is the only 1A clear west of Salt Lake City. KNX has real coverage and interference issues for the Southland, and KFWB has a signal that does not even cover the LA market, day or night.
As I mentioned, the stations I am familiar with are all monitoring KFI.
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