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KFLA-LP Digital 8 - Can Anyone Pull In This Signal OTA?

Robnoxious

Robnoxious

I one of those "crazy" people that haven't had cable tv for years so I rely on the bunny ears for my television reception. I've made my DTV switch and purchased a converter box like a good little tv scout and have been very impressed with the picture quality since the jump. Why I've endured KCBS and KNBC with a ton of electrical noise for so long is beyond me.

Anyway, checking what I receive against zapt2it and titantv.com schedules it looks like I "should" receive KFLA-8.1 and I don't even get a hint that something is out there. I don't know a hell of a lot about transmitters and contour patterns and all that stuff so I'll pose this to you guys.

Is a LP transmission from the Mt. Wilson broadcast farm a bit too far to to receive in Long Beach (Belmont Shore) proper? Also, I'd be interested in knowing if anyone can get this signal OTA and what kind of antenna you have to pull it in. It would be helpful if you say where in the Southland you are at so I can get a better gauge on weather this is a project I should attempt.

It won't kill me if it's near impossible to get KFLA's signal but looking at their schedule they show a lot of old westerns probably in the public domain and the Canadian Football League (hey, football is football) and soccer.
 
I live in the Naples area of Long Beach and use only an outdoor antenna with my Samsung HD monitor. I dropped cable service many months ago.

I cannot get KFLA-LD at all. This doesn't surprise me since their transmitter only puts out a 300 watt signal. By contrast, KNBC-DT blankets the LA basin and far beyond (all of Orange, parts of San Diego and Ventura Counties) with a 380. kW signal.

Granted they're broadcasting from Mt. Wilson but it may be that the mV/m is still too low for reaching the coast. I'll have to check their contour map on the FCC's website.

Here is their website:

http://www.kfla.tv/

On the site they suggest doing a channel re-mapping. Try that and maybe it will come in for you.

C5
 
The FCC map indicates that you should get the station, but that doesn't always mean you will. The fact that the station sits between two full-power analog signals (KABC and KCAL) doesn't help either.

I'm not familiar with the converter boxes, but I'm guessing you don't have anything that will help with weak channels.

Westerns and the CFL, huh? That sounds like the America One television network.
 
KFLA-LD also does a multicast. -2 is Hispanic Christian something or another, -3 is "Christian Vision Television." -4 is "White Springs TV" which is a 24-hour public domain movie service available on free-to-air satellite.

- Trip
 
Carmine5 said:
I live in the Naples area of Long Beach and use only an outdoor antenna with my Samsung HD monitor.
Click to expand...
Ahh ok, you are right up the street from me. If you can't pull it in with an outdoor bird then there's no way no how I'll capture the signal with run of the mill bunny ears. Thanks for your reply. Looks like no Calgary Stampede games for me when nothing else is on.

300 watts 'eh? That's like a birthday candle in a sea of flamethrowers.

dhett said:
I'm not familiar with the converter boxes, but I'm guessing you don't have anything that will help with weak channels.
Click to expand...
My box has a signal meter but it doesn't do a lick of good if it can't "see" the signal from the get go. It can't map it if it thinks nothing is there. From what I've read the Zenith boxes do better than most with weaker channels but KFLA is obviously so weak that in all likely hood it's barely seen by anyone.
 
dhett said:
The fact that the station sits between two full-power analog signals (KABC and KCAL) doesn't help either.
Click to expand...

And come February, the full-power analog signals will become full-power digital signals, as KABC and KCAL move their digital signals to their current analog frequencies.

All this meaning, unless you live real close to KFLA's transmitter, the station will remain virtually invisible to Los Angeles viewers. If they want any chance to succeed, they're better off requesting a channel change from the FCC.
 
azumanga said:
And come February, the full-power analog signals will become full-power digital signals, as KABC and KCAL move their digital signals to their current analog frequencies.

All this meaning, unless you live real close to KFLA's transmitter, the station will remain virtually invisible to Los Angeles viewers. If they want any chance to succeed, they're better off requesting a channel change from the FCC.
Click to expand...

I don't know where else they could move to. On UHF, they'd have a 15 kW signal sandwiched between a bunch of 1000 kW blowtorches. If anything, I wonder if KABC-DT and KCAL-DT being digital might help KFLA-LD out.

Personally, I think the FCC needs to change their ERP rules for upper-VHF. On analog, for full-powered upper-VHF stations, the limit is roughly 3 times the low-VHF power (100 kW vs 316 kW). For digital, it's roughly 4 times the power (45 kW vs 160 kW). Yet when it comes to low-powered signals, upper and lower VHF share the same 3 kW limit on analog and 300 watt power limit on digital. I don't understand why the FCC doesn't allow upper-VHF stations to operate with 900 watts or an even 1 kW digitally on upper-VHF. That might not make a huge difference, but it would at least level the playing field.

- Trip
 
azumanga said:
dhett said:
The fact that the station sits between two full-power analog signals (KABC and KCAL) doesn't help either.
Click to expand...

And come February, the full-power analog signals will become full-power digital signals, as KABC and KCAL move their digital signals to their current analog frequencies.

All this meaning, unless you live real close to KFLA's transmitter, the station will remain virtually invisible to Los Angeles viewers. If they want any chance to succeed, they're better off requesting a channel change from the FCC.
Click to expand...

Such are the travails of an LPTV (or LDTV) station which have to accept any interference from their full-power counterparts.

I thought I'd read somewhere that the FCC was opening a window to allow some LPTV stations to apply for CA status. I don't know if KFLA would qualify but it would certainly afford it protection.

As it is, I don't think KFLA even qualifies as a citywide cable must-carry since their signal must be clean and reasonably strong when reaching a cable provider's headend (provided they don't use fiber-optic or satellite to send the signal). It seems to me that KFLA's signal doesn't go much beyond downtown Pasadena.

C5
 
I have a direct line of sight to Mt. Wilson's antenna farm from my rooftop in Sherman Oaks, with a Wineguard Gull-Wing UHF antenna up there. On my DirecTV HR20-700, I did a rescan of the digital OTA channels, and the signal meter does not show any signal for either channel.
 
Assuming there is a signal at all. I can't tell you how many stations I've encountered that are licensed, but put out no visible signal. The FCC doesn't seem to pay much attention to LPTV stations unless they get a complaint, although I've even encountered a full-power station licensed for both analog and digital, but producing a viewable signal on either.
 
No, KFLA-LD is definitely on the air. I've received reception reports. Plus you can see screencaps here:

http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/lineupui?Cmd=LocationProgramsWeb&Country=US&Postcode=91030

I don't disagree with your premise though, I've seen a lot of the same even in my own area. I know of three LPTVs that I personally investigated that are not on the air with 100% certainty.

On the subject of full-service stations, I'm hearing that KQCK-DT in Cheyenne/Denver has been silent for more than a month with no notice to the FCC.

- Trip
 
MichaelLAX said:
I have a direct line of sight to Mt. Wilson's antenna farm from my rooftop in Sherman Oaks, with a Wineguard Gull-Wing UHF antenna up there. On my DirecTV HR20-700, I did a rescan of the digital OTA channels, and the signal meter does not show any signal for either channel.
Click to expand...

Of course, you're in the San Fernando Valley (although just over the ridge). KFLA's contour map shows that the signal is aimed into the LA basin but away from SFV.

C5
 
Just got a Sanyo HDTV this last week. I'm in Orange County (Irvine) and I can get it. But I do have very large VHF/UHF outdooor antenna in my attic.
 
Here's an interesting little tidbit on KFLA:

"September 10, Los Angeles - Today the FCC inspected KFLA-LD (low power TV Channel 8 on Mt. Wilson) for alleged overpower operation...."

Hmm, 300 watts just isn't quite enough? Should have thought of that before they built.

Maybe that's why the guy in Irvine could get it.

http://www.bext.com/_CGC/2008/cgc857.htm

C5
 
The station is owned by Roy Mayhugh -- a Ridgecrest area radio engineer and station owner. His long time friend and former partner, Jay Stevens, is testing a new radio format -- by way of the SAP Audio. "KingsRadio Rock". Jay Stevens was the former PD of KRLA 1110 AM in Pasadena during the 1960's. Jay has a whole garage full of awards. Jay was the long time voice of "Pauls Big Screen TV" -- until it was sold last year.
 
dhett said:
The FCC map indicates that you should get the station, but that doesn't always mean you will. The fact that the station sits between two full-power analog signals (KABC and KCAL) doesn't help either.
Click to expand...

Things may change in an all digital world. Apparently it does not have the adjacent channel issues we have in analog. In Mexico City the DTVs are clustered. TV Azteca operates 25, 26 and 27 and Televisa runs 48, 49 and 50.
 
fredcantu said:
Things may change in an all digital world. Apparently it does not have the adjacent channel issues we have in analog. In Mexico City the DTVs are clustered. TV Azteca operates 25, 26 and 27 and Televisa runs 48, 49 and 50.
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter as long as the power levels are close to equivalent and the transmitters are close together. But when you have two extremely powerful signals sandwiching an LP, that's when you have problems.

- Trip
 
Even one full-power signal next to an LPTV signal can cause problems for the LPTV station, as one station in Phx has found out. Adjacent stations of relatively equal power are allowed as long as they are within 23 km or at least 110 km apart (20 km instead of 23 km in the NE - Zone I). (See 47 CFR 73.623 for FCC rules on co-channel and adjacent channel separation.)
 
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