They gave up a better dial position at 99.7, but the suits at CBS can give KFRC a much needed boost and rather easily. In a few words.......KRTH/Los Angeles & WCBS/New York.......What aren't they getting here? Both do very well ratings wise, bill like crazy and sound really good! The Bay Area is ready for this format??????
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KFRC....How Can CBS Not See This??
- Thread starter airpab
- Start date
airpab said:
At the time the oldies format was dropped from 99.7, the ratings were off. And nationally, oldies ratings had taken a significant dive (something like 20% if memory serves). Thus, the move to ditch the oldies was in anticipation that KFRC's ratings would otherwise go even lower if something wasn't done.
Now, a 70s/80s oldies format may work, but it's going to disappoint the people who would rather hear the 60s oldies over and over again. But for them there are Sirius and XM.
DavidKaye said:
CBS-FM in NY is personality radio, with people like Bob Shannon who've worked in that market for years. And their music mix is very well-chosen for the market. It doesn't sound like KFRC wants to spend the sort of energy or money necessary to do the equivalent Bay Area version of that; they're running a Classic Hits Jukebox, nothing more. But those classic Casey Kasem shows on Saturday are a treat.
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Now, a 70s/80s oldies format may work, but it's going to disappoint the people who would rather hear the 60s oldies over and over again. But for them there are Sirius and XM.
[/quote]
I think if a station will play songs from all Rock Era decades, they should play today's hits as well. Just because an audience reaches a certain age, doesn't mean they don't want to hear the hits anymore.
Now, a 70s/80s oldies format may work, but it's going to disappoint the people who would rather hear the 60s oldies over and over again. But for them there are Sirius and XM.
[/quote]
I think if a station will play songs from all Rock Era decades, they should play today's hits as well. Just because an audience reaches a certain age, doesn't mean they don't want to hear the hits anymore.
"Now, a 70s/80s oldies format may work, but it's going to disappoint the people who would rather hear the 60s oldies over and over again. But for them there are Sirius and XM."
In some markets - the oldies are on HD-2. And it's free (if only for the cost of the radio...like it always was.)
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"I think if a station will play songs from all Rock Era decades, they should play today's hits as well. Just because an audience reaches a certain age, doesn't mean they don't want to hear the hits anymore."
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I'm 50...and I could live forever without hearing some (not all, but some) of "today's hits". (And, unfortunately for me, I put myself in a position where I hear them, no matter what.) And no teenager who wants to be "hip" with his/her friends wants to be caught listening to a station that plays the Turtles. Elvis, maybe...the Beatles, perhaps.
Playing from 60 years of music (or more) would, likely (due to human nature), not attract a big enough audience.
In some markets - the oldies are on HD-2. And it's free (if only for the cost of the radio...like it always was.)
[/quote]
"I think if a station will play songs from all Rock Era decades, they should play today's hits as well. Just because an audience reaches a certain age, doesn't mean they don't want to hear the hits anymore."
[/quote]
I'm 50...and I could live forever without hearing some (not all, but some) of "today's hits". (And, unfortunately for me, I put myself in a position where I hear them, no matter what.) And no teenager who wants to be "hip" with his/her friends wants to be caught listening to a station that plays the Turtles. Elvis, maybe...the Beatles, perhaps.
Playing from 60 years of music (or more) would, likely (due to human nature), not attract a big enough audience.
Playing from 60 years of music (or more) would, likely (due to human nature), not attract a big enough audience.
Newsperosn responds:
A 60-year format goes back to 1948 and no oldies station in S.F. or anywhere goes back that far.
If we had a 30-year span that could go from 1955 to 1985 that could work except too much music from the 50s and early 60s makes a format sound old and just the right amount of music from the early 80s could make it shoud refeshing.
It would be a good job for a creative program director, unfortunatly it does't look like a station owner would beleive in that format.
Any ideas for a station that could go in this direction?
Newsperson
Newsperosn responds:
A 60-year format goes back to 1948 and no oldies station in S.F. or anywhere goes back that far.
If we had a 30-year span that could go from 1955 to 1985 that could work except too much music from the 50s and early 60s makes a format sound old and just the right amount of music from the early 80s could make it shoud refeshing.
It would be a good job for a creative program director, unfortunatly it does't look like a station owner would beleive in that format.
Any ideas for a station that could go in this direction?
Newsperson
Tom_KYA1260 said:
You're forgetting the most important point of commercial radio: The customers are the advertisers. The product is the listeners. Most advertisers are not buying the product that is attracted to oldies formats. Most advertisers do not want people in their 50s, 60s, and 70s.
There's actually a place for this audience: non-commercial radio. Non-comms are truly listener-driven because the listeners are directly footing the bill. This is why eclectic programming winds up on non-comms. For instance, the best show of the doo wop era, Grider's Grooveyard is on KPOO, a non-comm. Likewise specialty shows such as Music From the Hearts of Space (space music), America's Back 40 (bluegrass and roots music), etc., all have had long runs on non-comms.
But don't expect to hear the oldies on commercial radio. The advertisers don't want to buy listeners over age 50.
newsperson said:
Er, actually... you just described what CBS-FM is doing in NY. Yes, the core playlist is '68 to '84, but they play the occasional Elvis and Chuck Berry tunes as well as a smattering of later '80s stuff. They have lots of "specialty" categories throughout the day -- "One Hit Wonders", "Country Crossovers", and the like (they even have days when they play 45s off of vinyl). They know how to spice things up just enough without scaring the younger demo away. But it requires creativity and time and most stations just can't be bothered.
Jason Roberts said:
You're making out younger people to be afraid of not being hip. It's not that at all. Tastes are simply different. You chastise younger people for not wanting to listen to 40 year old music (Turtles, Beatles, etc), but look at when YOU were a kid. Take a look back 40 years from that date. Were you really interested in listening to music from 1927? No, of course you weren't. You didn't care about Arthur Pryor's Band, or Fats Waller when he was just a session player. You probably don't even know who Bert Firman was. You probably didn't collect old 78s from Vocalion or Brunswick. Did you? Why should you expect today's teens to care anything about music equally as old to them as the 20s are to you?
"Were you really interested in listening to music from 1927? No, of course you weren't. You didn't care about Arthur Pryor's Band, or Fats Waller when he was just a session player. You probably don't even know who Bert Firman was. You probably didn't collect old 78s from Vocalion or Brunswick. Did you? Why should you expect today's teens to care anything about music equally as old to them as the 20s are to you?"
Or put another way - mid 60s "Oldies" are about as old today as some of the Big Band ("standards") songs were when The Big 610/KFRC became "Magic 61" in the mid 80s. When the first Bay Area standards format came along in the late 70s (KMPX), standards were newer than 60s Oldies are today.
I actually enjoyed listening to that music then - even though it sounded very dated to me, but I was probably in the minority, and I only listened occasionally, not on a regular basis. The standards format never got big ratings, and by the 90s, KABL was playing mostly late 50s and 60s pop music (late Sinatra, Englebert Humperdinck, etc.)...much as "Oldies" stations have moved their playlists up about a decade to "Classic Hits."
The most popular stations during the 60s were Top 40 or MOR. The rock stations only went back a few years when they played "gold" (Oldies). Of course, rock was a fairly new medium then, with a little more than a decade of history. My parent's MOR stations played mostly current pop, and rarely played music more than a decade old.
Or put another way - mid 60s "Oldies" are about as old today as some of the Big Band ("standards") songs were when The Big 610/KFRC became "Magic 61" in the mid 80s. When the first Bay Area standards format came along in the late 70s (KMPX), standards were newer than 60s Oldies are today.
I actually enjoyed listening to that music then - even though it sounded very dated to me, but I was probably in the minority, and I only listened occasionally, not on a regular basis. The standards format never got big ratings, and by the 90s, KABL was playing mostly late 50s and 60s pop music (late Sinatra, Englebert Humperdinck, etc.)...much as "Oldies" stations have moved their playlists up about a decade to "Classic Hits."
The most popular stations during the 60s were Top 40 or MOR. The rock stations only went back a few years when they played "gold" (Oldies). Of course, rock was a fairly new medium then, with a little more than a decade of history. My parent's MOR stations played mostly current pop, and rarely played music more than a decade old.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Magic 61 have good ratings. It seems like I remember them doing quite well ratings wise but they dropped the format because they weren't generating enough revenue. Wasn't it a similar story for KSFO as a standards station just prior to Magic with much the same line up?
I said: "The standards format never got big ratings..."
David SC asked: "Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Magic 61 have good ratings? It seems like I remember them doing quite well ratings wise but they dropped the format because they weren't generating enough revenue."
Carter B said: "Magic 61 Winter ARB in 1990 was a 4.2...Cume 499,800 Metro, 618,500 TSA"
I stand corrected...I really didn't pay any attention to Arbitron ratings until maybe 12 years ago (when I first had internet access)...I seem to remember that KABL only got around a 2.2 or so toward the end with standards. But regardless, if these stations couldn't generate revenue, even with good ratings - probably because they weren't attracting the younger demo advertisers wanted - then the analogy with 60s Oldies is still valid.
I also have to wonder how much the popular Dr. Don Rose's morning show contributed to Magic 61's ratings. Perhaps the Good Doctor was gone from 610 by 1990...can't remember.
David SC asked: "Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Magic 61 have good ratings? It seems like I remember them doing quite well ratings wise but they dropped the format because they weren't generating enough revenue."
Carter B said: "Magic 61 Winter ARB in 1990 was a 4.2...Cume 499,800 Metro, 618,500 TSA"
I stand corrected...I really didn't pay any attention to Arbitron ratings until maybe 12 years ago (when I first had internet access)...I seem to remember that KABL only got around a 2.2 or so toward the end with standards. But regardless, if these stations couldn't generate revenue, even with good ratings - probably because they weren't attracting the younger demo advertisers wanted - then the analogy with 60s Oldies is still valid.
I also have to wonder how much the popular Dr. Don Rose's morning show contributed to Magic 61's ratings. Perhaps the Good Doctor was gone from 610 by 1990...can't remember.
The reason Oldies stations go back so many years is because it's all music
from the "Rock" era, generally 1955+. Oldies stations in the 80s and 90s
didn't go back as far, because that would have put them in the
Big Band era - pre 55.
Del Shannon's music from the early 60s doesn't sound THAT much different
than Matchbox Twenty's sound, whereas the Dave Clark 5 next to Glenn Miller
would be a little odd.
I think an ALL HIT station with big hits from 1955-2008 could work if masterfully
programmed and positioned. Everybody's second favorite station!
from the "Rock" era, generally 1955+. Oldies stations in the 80s and 90s
didn't go back as far, because that would have put them in the
Big Band era - pre 55.
Del Shannon's music from the early 60s doesn't sound THAT much different
than Matchbox Twenty's sound, whereas the Dave Clark 5 next to Glenn Miller
would be a little odd.
I think an ALL HIT station with big hits from 1955-2008 could work if masterfully
programmed and positioned. Everybody's second favorite station!
"...an ALL HIT station with big hits from 1955-2008 could work if masterfully
programmed and positioned..."
Sign me up, sounds like show biz. What's not to like about working within any
context involving well programmed, targeted positioning and attention to presentation?
(Music selection sounds good, too. Of course we'll have to run it by Sales to see if it's viable for them..)
programmed and positioned..."
Sign me up, sounds like show biz. What's not to like about working within any
context involving well programmed, targeted positioning and attention to presentation?
(Music selection sounds good, too. Of course we'll have to run it by Sales to see if it's viable for them..)
"Del Shannon's music from the early 60s doesn't sound THAT much different than Matchbox Twenty's sound, whereas the Dave Clark 5 next to Glenn Miller would be a little odd."
You've got a good point, Surfdude. I've actually been told by a number of people my older daughter's age (she's 24) that they like music from the 60s. Since I hear rock from that era through baby-boomer ears (it's what I grew up with), the music does not sound dated to me, so I'm not a good judge. I remember that I liked some, but by no means all of the "pop" MOR music my parents listened to. Of course, back then, Top 40 radio playlists included the occasional pop crossover hit from Sinatra, Dean Martin, etc.
Somebody will probably criticize this analogy - but think of KFOG, which has a long playlist of some hits and popular album cuts from the mid 60s to current day. From what I understand, they rate highly in the 25-54 demo, which is what advertisers are supposedly looking for. KOIT is another station that reaches back to the 70s, and occasionally the 60s for their "Light-Rock Oldies."
You've got a good point, Surfdude. I've actually been told by a number of people my older daughter's age (she's 24) that they like music from the 60s. Since I hear rock from that era through baby-boomer ears (it's what I grew up with), the music does not sound dated to me, so I'm not a good judge. I remember that I liked some, but by no means all of the "pop" MOR music my parents listened to. Of course, back then, Top 40 radio playlists included the occasional pop crossover hit from Sinatra, Dean Martin, etc.
Somebody will probably criticize this analogy - but think of KFOG, which has a long playlist of some hits and popular album cuts from the mid 60s to current day. From what I understand, they rate highly in the 25-54 demo, which is what advertisers are supposedly looking for. KOIT is another station that reaches back to the 70s, and occasionally the 60s for their "Light-Rock Oldies."
Lkeller said:
A lot of crossovers, actually. Here's a link to KHJ's music surveys from that era for people who don't believe this.
http://www.socalradiohistory.com/khjannex.html
Taking a survey at random, June 22, 1966, the #2 song on KHJ's chart is Frank Sinatra's "Strangers In The Night", hardly a rock song. This is on the same chart as the Standell's "Dirty Water" and the Stones' "Paint It Black." I can't think of any station today that would play "Strangers In The Night" and "Dirty Water".
Other charts have Wayne Newton alongside Steppenwolf. This chart, for instance, looks almost all MOR with just a few rock tunes thrown in: http://www.socalradiohistory.com/khj/khj161.html
"A lot of crossovers, actually. Here's a link to KHJ's music surveys from that era for people who don't believe this...
Taking a survey at random, June 22, 1966, the #2 song on KHJ's chart is Frank Sinatra's "Strangers In The Night", hardly a rock song. This is on the same chart as the Standell's "Dirty Water" and the Stones' "Paint It Black." I can't think of any station today that would play "Strangers In The Night" and "Dirty Water". Other charts have Wayne Newton alongside Steppenwolf. This chart, for instance, looks almost all MOR with just a few rock tunes thrown in: http://www.socalradiohistory.com/khj/khj161.html"
Awww...and it's all marked up by the kid who originally picked it up at the record store. Actually, I'd say most of them were "light rock," in current parlance. Many of the songs on that Boss 30 survey; like "Dream a Little Dream of Me" (Mama Cass), and "Everybody's Talkin'"(Nilsson) may have been more pop than rock, but I don't think you would have heard most of them on KMPC or KSFO in those days. As I remember it, MOR stations of the time just didn't play younger pop or rock artists. They did start playing younger artists around the mid 70s - I assume because they wanted to attract younger listeners. I remember the first time I heard the Beatles on KMPC. Later in the late 70s, DJs like John Gilliland on KSFO would get really eclectic and play a few album rock cuts.
A couple you probably would have heard on KMPC or KSFO in 68: "Dreams of the Everyday Housewife" (Wayne Newton), and "Happy"by Nancy Sinatra.
Speaking of crossover hits, I've been listening some to The Wolf HD2 lately, which is Classic Country. They play some real oldies going back to Gene Autry and Bill Anderson, but much of what they play also broke into the Top 40. That was the beauty of the format - if it was popular, it got airplay.
Taking a survey at random, June 22, 1966, the #2 song on KHJ's chart is Frank Sinatra's "Strangers In The Night", hardly a rock song. This is on the same chart as the Standell's "Dirty Water" and the Stones' "Paint It Black." I can't think of any station today that would play "Strangers In The Night" and "Dirty Water". Other charts have Wayne Newton alongside Steppenwolf. This chart, for instance, looks almost all MOR with just a few rock tunes thrown in: http://www.socalradiohistory.com/khj/khj161.html"
Awww...and it's all marked up by the kid who originally picked it up at the record store. Actually, I'd say most of them were "light rock," in current parlance. Many of the songs on that Boss 30 survey; like "Dream a Little Dream of Me" (Mama Cass), and "Everybody's Talkin'"(Nilsson) may have been more pop than rock, but I don't think you would have heard most of them on KMPC or KSFO in those days. As I remember it, MOR stations of the time just didn't play younger pop or rock artists. They did start playing younger artists around the mid 70s - I assume because they wanted to attract younger listeners. I remember the first time I heard the Beatles on KMPC. Later in the late 70s, DJs like John Gilliland on KSFO would get really eclectic and play a few album rock cuts.
A couple you probably would have heard on KMPC or KSFO in 68: "Dreams of the Everyday Housewife" (Wayne Newton), and "Happy"by Nancy Sinatra.
Speaking of crossover hits, I've been listening some to The Wolf HD2 lately, which is Classic Country. They play some real oldies going back to Gene Autry and Bill Anderson, but much of what they play also broke into the Top 40. That was the beauty of the format - if it was popular, it got airplay.
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