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KFRC

DavidEduardo said:
Fastphilly said:
I will tell you my displeasure about it- I am tired of KFRC sticking with their "core artists" with their core artists "safe songs"...You want music?

They play Dec. 63 by Four Seasons, Where is "Who Loves You"?
They play Wings, where is "Goodnight Tonight"?
They play Elton John,where is "Island Girl"?
They play Stevie Wonder, where is "Master Blaster"?
They play Spinners, where is "Games People Play" and "Cupid"?

All of these were top 10 hits, where are they?

The most likely answer is that they asked the listeners to score the songs, and the listeners did not want to hear those ones. Having been top 10 40 or so years ago does not mean people want to hear the songs now. Oldies and classic hits formats play yesterday's songs that are still hits today.


>>>>Yes...20% percent of the whole listener population score the songs if it's that many....the rest of us are the silent majority.....I prefer on the way it was played statistics instead. That's why you have satellite, Internet, Napster and MP3's and more options on the way.
I don't care for research programs, or advertisers telling the population on who to target. This is why those songs are missing.
"Games People Play", not a great tune???, Why it didn't score (at that moment) could've been a bunch of factors. The male researcher could've been thinking about his home in foreclosure while that song was being tested, or the female researcher just happened to run out of midol while that song was being played or tested....and it got a negative response at that particular time. So, it's not on the playlist.
People have mood swings , for instance , I'm all of a sudden in the mood for country. I'm listening that whole week. Will I be in the mood for it next week?....depends on my mood. Does that mean the country format should flip to another format in that market, and deny everyone from hearing Country next week. It seems like this is how these songs are chosen for formats.
 
Rich Ransom said:
In 1985 the population of the nine Bay counties was 5.9 million. Today it's less than 7 million. That is not a huge increase. Yes, there has been an influx of migration and immigration, that is a given, but the people here in 1985 haven't left or died en masse.

The benchmark years are about 1966 to 1982 for classic hits. The metro population has had huge turnover; the center year is about 1973, so look at how many have left and how many have come into the market since then, with their tastes in "oldies" well formed all the time.

Believe it or not, the music of the 80's is now considered "Classic Hits," and that is the point I am trying to drive home,

Classic Hits playlists are centered on the early mid-70's, with a smidgen of 60's and a bit of early 80's. An era analysis of KFRC shows the core years as 1971 to 1976, with lesser amounts of songs on each side in approximately equal quantities. Only about 10% of the played song list is from the 80's, so whatever you think is considered to be "classic hits" the fact is only a small part of the library is from the 80's-

and what David Kaye seems to agree with me on, and you seem to repel. If these stations tested their music in Dublin, Mill Valley or Livermore, they can justify their playlists with what we now hear. But the dynamics of SF, the South Bay, East Bay and North Bay are not the same - yet they, as a whole, have always leaned, and I stress, leaned urban.

But we are talking about 40 to 54 year olds, not current users of CHR. What the taste of a 17 year old or a 32 year old may be is only relevent to current CHR consumption, not to users of classic hits oldies stations.

There have always been and will continue to be rock fans, and KFRC played rock (heck, KDIA played Hall & Oates) - but my point keeps getting lost and it is a SIMPLE point: To be a success, KFRC will need to broaden its playlist.

How old were you in 1972?
 
DavidEduardo said:
Rich Ransom said:
In 1985 the population of the nine Bay counties was 5.9 million. Today it's less than 7 million. That is not a huge increase. Yes, there has been an influx of migration and immigration, that is a given, but the people here in 1985 haven't left or died en masse.

The benchmark years are about 1966 to 1982 for classic hits. The metro population has had huge turnover; the center year is about 1973, so look at how many have left and how many have come into the market since then, with their tastes in "oldies" well formed all the time.

Believe it or not, the music of the 80's is now considered "Classic Hits," and that is the point I am trying to drive home,

Classic Hits playlists are centered on the early mid-70's, with a smidgen of 60's and a bit of early 80's. An era analysis of KFRC shows the core years as 1971 to 1976, with lesser amounts of songs on each side in approximately equal quantities. Only about 10% of the played song list is from the 80's, so whatever you think is considered to be "classic hits" the fact is only a small part of the library is from the 80's-

and what David Kaye seems to agree with me on, and you seem to repel. If these stations tested their music in Dublin, Mill Valley or Livermore, they can justify their playlists with what we now hear. But the dynamics of SF, the South Bay, East Bay and North Bay are not the same - yet they, as a whole, have always leaned, and I stress, leaned urban.

But we are talking about 40 to 54 year olds, not current users of CHR. What the taste of a 17 year old or a 32 year old may be is only relevent to current CHR consumption, not to users of classic hits oldies stations.

There have always been and will continue to be rock fans, and KFRC played rock (heck, KDIA played Hall & Oates) - but my point keeps getting lost and it is a SIMPLE point: To be a success, KFRC will need to broaden its playlist.

How old were you in 1972?

Keep in mind Mr. Edurado...your "Benchmarks" and other decriptions of format, music, etc come from RADIO people. Perhaps there is someone out there waiting to RE-WRITE the established rules.

I know many programmers who have done things completely different to radio conventional wisdom and won.
 
BossJock1947 said:
Keep in mind Mr. Edurado...your "Benchmarks" and other decriptions of format, music, etc come from RADIO people. Perhaps there is someone out there waiting to RE-WRITE the established rules.

Actually, the benchmarks are based on asking listeners what they like. Most radio people, today, use a variety of methods to actually find out what is in listeners minds.

I know many programmers who have done things completely different to radio conventional wisdom and won.

And the long list of examples you provide proves this conclusively.
 
DavidEduardo said:
BossJock1947 said:
Keep in mind Mr. Edurado...your "Benchmarks" and other decriptions of format, music, etc come from RADIO people. Perhaps there is someone out there waiting to RE-WRITE the established rules.

Actually, the benchmarks are based on asking listeners what they like. Most radio people, today, use a variety of methods to actually find out what is in listeners minds.

I know many programmers who have done things completely different to radio conventional wisdom and won.

And the long list of examples you provide proves this conclusively.


Jerry Clifton, Don Kelly, Steve Smith, Jhani Kaye, Steve Rivers

These guys incorporated the right rhythmic with the right pop.
 
BossJock1947 said:
Jerry Clifton, Don Kelly, Steve Smith, Jhani Kaye, Steve Rivers

These guys incorporated the right rhythmic with the right pop.

Those are names, not examples.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Actually, the benchmarks are based on asking listeners what they like. Most radio people, today, use a variety of methods to actually find out what is in listeners minds.

Most successful things, whether it's Seinfeld, The Godfather, The Rolling Stones, NYPD Blue, Saturday Night Live, KROQ circa 1982, Howard Stern, or rock and roll itself, were created by individuals with a vision. Not by focus groups, "asking people what they want," or market research. Most of the aforementioned, in fact, bombed "research."

That's why radio today lacks innovation, creativity, and soul, and is indeed quite boring. It's being shaped by accountants, not artists. Yes, I know someone on here will counter that XXX stations made XXX dollars last year, and bla bla bla. However the layoffs, consolidation, format failures (Movin' anyone?), and the public's apathy tell a different story.

Remember when people loved their stations so much they put bumper stickers on their cars? Only a complete dork (or employee) would do that today.

By the way, I checked out KFRC's songs on Yes.com, and I feel sorry for you guys. Boring classic rock with some window dressing. You're right: KRTH, as dull as it is, would be a big improvement.

At least you guys have 10@10 on KFOG.....!
 
I am in complete agreement about taking chances and breaking the mold.
I does not, repeat....does not take courage to try something unique if you are losing your shirt doing the conventional things.
The only hope for today's losers is to break away from conventional wisdom. But, unfortunately, the decisions come from the bean-counters and lawyers in corporate towers who haven't a clue about the craft of radio.
To succeed you need: a unique brand, clear vision and focus, a wild passion that is convertible to the staff, a clear mission statement based on an unmet need or desire, a willingness to hire people more intelligent and passionate than yourself and a similar willingness to subordinate some of the execution to those creative people. We know how seldom any of that takes place in radio.

An all-gay radio station would work despite past feeble/limp attempts.
A high-energy Country music station would work, even in San Francisco
A liberal talk radio station would work, and don't tell me it has been tried. I've heard nothing close to an acceptable attempt at counter-programming and Air-America without Al Franken is a joke.
All-women all-the-time


The only reasons so much of the radio spectrum is consumed with permutations of old music are:

The record industry doesn't make music for radio anymore so we are left with the music from a time when they did.

No one in radio would know a new hit song if they heard it 'cause there is no place to gain or employ instinct or even the ability to read contemporary research on new music

All music is run thru research grinders (like focus groups) meant to determine safe music. I bet there are not more than four radio stations today that are playing music released since Christmas. Even those well-meaning posters on these boards are pre-occupied with analyzing the merits of old music and debating "Classic hits' and other oldies.

Saddest of all is we are so far removed from radio's glory days and those days are not going to return. Wake me if there ever again is a KSFO of the '60s, a KSAN or KFRC of the '70s, or a KMEL of the '80s.
 
scooty430 said:
Most successful things, whether it's Seinfeld, The Godfather, The Rolling Stones, NYPD Blue, Saturday Night Live, KROQ circa 1982, Howard Stern, or rock and roll itself, were created by individuals with a vision. Not by focus groups, "asking people what they want," or market research. Most of the aforementioned, in fact, bombed "research."

Research is a tool. Give me a set of automotive tools, and I will destroy a perfectly good car. The user of research needs to know how to interpret data, and, even moreso, needs to specify what kind of data is to be discovered among what kind of perople. Sample, execution, interpretation and implementation are the elements... three of which are a station's responsibility. Listeners don't know about things they have not heard, but they can guide you in properly done interviews by showing where they have passion and where they are displeased.

All the things you metion are evolutionary changes, not revolutionary. There are few revolutions, and lots of evolutions. One of radio's most significant formats, AC, is the product of an evolution and merging of "Chicken Rock" and "Beautiful Music" which created the elements of today's AC stations of all types.


That's why radio today lacks innovation, creativity, and soul, and is indeed quite boring.

Which format is boring? By any chance, is that a format that was not designed for you or your lifestyle? On the other hand, I find that formats that were designed for me are pretty good. The limiting factor is the market... smaller or over-radioed markets don't do a good job and that is because there is too little revenue to do any better. When you put 29 stations in the Boise metro where there are less than $30 million radio dollars and you have limited resorces to create programming.


It's being shaped by accountants, not artists.

In tough economic times, all businesses are bing run with a tight fist. Radio can not be creative if stations lose money.

[/quote] Yes, I know someone on here will counter that XXX stations made XXX dollars last year, and bla bla bla. However the layoffs, consolidation, format failures (Movin' anyone?), and the public's apathy tell a different story.
[/quote]

You want people to try new things, yet when one is tried, you speak negatively of it. What exactly do you want radio to do for you?


Remember when people loved their stations so much they put bumper stickers on their cars? Only a complete dork (or employee) would do that today.

Or someone with a chrome bumper... people don't put stickers on because they gum up the palstic bumper or peel the paint. Even political stickers are seldom seen compared with "the good old days."
 
tripton99 said:
An all-gay radio station would work despite past feeble/limp attempts.
A high-energy Country music station would work, even in San Francisco
A liberal talk radio station would work, and don't tell me it has been tried. I've heard nothing close to an acceptable attempt at counter-programming and Air-America without Al Franken is a joke.
All-women all-the-time

The caveat in your first example is that all gays don't like the same music, and by suggesting this format, you are stereotyping. Same thing with women. Unless you have a common quality which can be converted into a radio format, 168 hours a week.


The only reasons so much of the radio spectrum is consumed with permutations of old music are:

Stop. The reason there are so many formats based on familiar music is that most adults, as they age, have a large personal repertoire of favorite songs which they want to hear. And they have a lower tolerance for new or newer music.


The record industry doesn't make music for radio anymore so we are left with the music from a time when they did.

I didn't know the record industry made music for radio, ever. Record companies make records somebody will buy. Radio was an easy way to promote it in the past, but today there are more promotional vehicles than ever and record companies have still to figure out the way to promote or sell music. While people criticize radio, the fact is that the music biz is in far greater difficulty, losing money and unable to decide how to deal with the digital era.


No one in radio would know a new hit song if they heard it 'cause there is no place to gain or employ instinct or even the ability to read contemporary research on new music

There is no research on new music. Stations that play new music pick songs based on feel. There is no way to research a new song before you put it on the air and play it a hundred times or so. We pick hits the same way we did in 1952 when Top 40 started.


All music is run thru research grinders (like focus groups) meant to determine safe music.

Music is presented to a sample of actual listeners so that we don't play songs that will drive many of them away, or play less acceptable songs too much or not play the biggest ones enough. No PD knows this without consulting the listeners.

Why in the world would you want to play a song that is "unsafe" if that means that half of the audience hates it and will tune out if they hear it?

I bet there are not more than four radio stations today that are playing music released since Christmas. Even those well-meaning posters on these boards are pre-occupied with analyzing the merits of old music and debating "Classic hits' and other oldies.

I'll bet that there is not a single station that plays currents that has not made significant adds since the beginning of the year. And there are many formats that play currents... soft AC makes limited adds of currents, Hot AC makes more, CHR, Urban, Hurban, Regional Mexican, Spanish Pop, Spanish AC, Spanish Tropical, Country, Smooth Jazz, Alternative and Modern rock, etc., etc, all add songs, usually on a weekly basis.


Saddest of all is we are so far removed from radio's glory days and those days are not going to return. Wake me if there ever again is a KSFO of the '60s, a KSAN or KFRC of the '70s, or a KMEL of the '80s.

There never will be, because we are in the entertinment business. You want us te be a museum of old formats.
 
There are some good points here by a variety of people. David is correct that research is only good if you use it wisely and can interpret it.

We've seen some recent formats (that didn't do well) that were a big marketing ploy by a consultant or researcher.

Adult Hits has been a successful format. "Movin'" has been a challenge for most of the stations that adopted the approach.

I will tell you that programmers with knowledge and a good gut will beat a research study any day. I've lived it over 20 times.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Fastphilly said:
I will tell you my displeasure about it- I am tired of KFRC sticking with their "core artists" with their core artists "safe songs"...You want music?

They play Dec. 63 by Four Seasons, Where is "Who Loves You"?
They play Wings, where is "Goodnight Tonight"?
They play Elton John,where is "Island Girl"?
They play Stevie Wonder, where is "Master Blaster"?
They play Spinners, where is "Games People Play" and "Cupid"?

All of these were top 10 hits, where are they?

The most likely answer is that they asked the listeners to score the songs, and the listeners did not want to hear those ones. Having been top 10 40 or so years ago does not mean people want to hear the songs now. Oldies and classic hits formats play yesterday's songs that are still hits today.


Has it occured to you that since these songs hav'nt been played in a couple decades, that many ppl have forgotten about them.....What dictates an oldie hit today is what the station chooses to play. Such as what KFRC is doing now...We pick the artists...They pick the songs..

As far as I'm concerned, If a song hit the top 10 , then it means the listening masses liked the song....The majority of the same ppl that contributed to that song hitting the top 10 in it's release, are the same ppl that fit the demo of a classic hits station...
 
Radioresearcher said:
I will tell you that programmers with knowledge and a good gut will beat a research study any day. I've lived it over 20 times.

Looking back, I remember one of those "oh, wow" format debuts (over a 20 share in first book in a top 15 market) where research told me not do do what I did. After a couple of these experiences, I realized the research was not aking the right questions of the right people.

The trick was using research to make good ideas even better and avoid those pesky course corrections at launch. So much research is done with no idea of what the objectives of the project are... and that goes even for AMT's, too.
 
Fastphilly said:
Has it occured to you that since these songs hav'nt been played in a couple decades, that many ppl have forgotten about them...

Yes, it has occured to most of us. If a song is forgettable, it is not a hit today. Still, most of us who play gold retest "what if" songs all the time. The results are usually pretty dismal.

[/quote]..What dictates an oldie hit today is what the station chooses to play. Such as what KFRC is doing now...We pick the artists...They pick the songs..
[/quote]

No, the listeners pick the songs. I've done oldies tests of nearly 1,500 songs to find the ones that are playable today.

As far as I'm concerned, If a song hit the top 10 , then it means the listening masses liked the song....The majority of the same ppl that contributed to that song hitting the top 10 in it's release, are the same ppl that fit the demo of a classic hits station...

Songs that were hits 40 years ago are not all hits today. Some are dated, some have lyrics that are no longer relevant. Some represent fads or dances. And most are songs that the same people who liked them back then don't want to be embarassed by now. Oldies stations don't play hits of the past, they play songs of the past that people think of as hits still today.

As an example, in the 60's I had a current based topical (cumbia) station that was #1 in several markets in Ecuador. We must have made at least 2000 hits over the 6 year period I owned it. I have on my computer the songs I still like from that station, which was my favorite of all the stations in my clusters. The total number of songs I still want to hear is about 150.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Fastphilly said:
Has it occured to you that since these songs hav'nt been played in a couple decades, that many ppl have forgotten about them...

Yes, it has occured to most of us. If a song is forgettable, it is not a hit today. Still, most of us who play gold retest "what if" songs all the time. The results are usually pretty dismal.
..What dictates an oldie hit today is what the station chooses to play. Such as what KFRC is doing now...We pick the artists...They pick the songs..
[/quote]

No, the listeners pick the songs. I've done oldies tests of nearly 1,500 songs to find the ones that are playable today.

As far as I'm concerned, If a song hit the top 10 , then it means the listening masses liked the song....The majority of the same ppl that contributed to that song hitting the top 10 in it's release, are the same ppl that fit the demo of a classic hits station...

Songs that were hits 40 years ago are not all hits today. Some are dated, some have lyrics that are no longer relevant. Some represent fads or dances. And most are songs that the same people who liked them back then don't want to be embarassed by now. Oldies stations don't play hits of the past, they play songs of the past that people think of as hits still today.

As an example, in the 60's I had a current based topical (cumbia) station that was #1 in several markets in Ecuador. We must have made at least 2000 hits over the 6 year period I owned it. I have on my computer the songs I still like from that station, which was my favorite of all the stations in my clusters. The total number of songs I still want to hear is about 150.
[/quote]

OMG...Were was I when this research was conducted?...lol
 
Fastphilly said:
OMG...Were was I when this research was conducted?...lol

At that time, we did research by talking to the cabbies who sat arround at the cab stands, of which there were about 100 in Quito. We also did the same thing at bus terminals. We would ask about the songs they liked and disliked, and since public transportation was used by 95% of the population, the station on in cabs and busses rapidly became the favorite.

Primitive but effective.

As incentive, we gave decals to put on the backseet side windows that said, "Don't Slam the Door. Listen to Canal Tropical" which the cabbies loved. For busses, we had stickers that said "Step off with the left foot" because busses did not ever come to a full stop.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Fastphilly said:
OMG...Were was I when this research was conducted?...lol

At that time, we did research by talking to the cabbies who sat arround at the cab stands, of which there were about 100 in Quito. We also did the same thing at bus terminals. We would ask about the songs they liked and disliked, and since public transportation was used by 95% of the population, the station on in cabs and busses rapidly became the favorite.

Primitive but effective.

As incentive, we gave decals to put on the backseet side windows that said, "Don't Slam the Door. Listen to Canal Tropical" which the cabbies loved. For busses, we had stickers that said "Step off with the left foot" because busses did not ever come to a full stop.

I never would have thought that top 40 radio would be popular (or listened to) in Quito,Equador...What years were you running the station?
 
Fastphilly said:
I never would have thought that top 40 radio would be popular (or listened to) in Quito,Equador...What years were you running the station?

The station I described was another member of the cluster, with the rough equivalent of country. The CHR station played pop/rock in Spanish, English, Italian and French... if it was a pop hit, we played it. Everything from The Sounds of Silence and Sugar, Sugar to Pensaba en Ti to Io Che Non Vivo Senza Te.

I put the CHR on the air in 1964 and the cluster in Quito had 9 stations by 1970. I learned a lot of the format when, in 1963 I interned at CHR Radio Exitos in Mexico City. We both had the same jingles as WABC in New York.

CHRs, or Top 40's, exist all over the world where there is commercial radio. The format is not language specific, so there are French CHRs and Tagalog CHRs and everything in between.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Fastphilly said:
I never would have thought that top 40 radio would be popular (or listened to) in Quito,Equador...What years were you running the station?

The station I described was another member of the cluster, with the rough equivalent of country. The CHR station played pop/rock in Spanish, English, Italian and French... if it was a pop hit, we played it. Everything from The Sounds of Silence and Sugar, Sugar to Pensaba en Ti to Io Che Non Vivo Senza Te.

I put the CHR on the air in 1964 and the cluster in Quito had 9 stations by 1970. I learned a lot of the format when, in 1963 I interned at CHR Radio Exitos in Mexico City. We both had the same jingles as WABC in New York.

CHRs, or Top 40's, exist all over the world where there is commercial radio. The format is not language specific, so there are French CHRs and Tagalog CHRs and everything in between.

Oh, for heaven's sake. Could you guys take the discussion about Quito, Ecuador, private?

I really don't care that the Drake format was actually started in Tegucigalpa by a guy named Wally Drake in 1964, either, if you're planning on dropping that bit of knowledge on us.

Go away before somebody's head explodes and leaves a mess.
 
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