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KGIL 1260 Going HD

And thanks so much for once again obnoxiously deriding what I do for a living. You know: "AM Radio??"

It's curious that in the Panama-HD thread, you chose to post a link to photos depicting a showcase Brazilian 100kw AM facility on 710 kHz. I believe your comment was to the effect that it "put most major market US stations to shame" as an example of the forward-thinking broadcast operators in Latin America.

Guess it was pretty stupid for the Brazilians to build that high-power AM facility since it's "futile" to "save AM," right? Or are you arguing that the only place in the hemisphere where it's "all over for AM" is in the USA?

Back here on Planet Earth: truth be told (and notwithstanding the endless doomsday chant from David "Eduardo" Gleason) the only segment of the radio industry which is showing steady year-to-year growth is mostly-AM talk radio. The music formats, mostly cookie-cutter corporate products, are the ones in revenue freefall.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
Carmine5 said:
Look out, Los Angeles. Saul Levine is bringing HD to KGIL 1260. When that happens, he'll start doing a simulcast of K-Mozart (classical) on Sundays.

http://www.radioandrecords.com/RRWe...=49744&ContentTypeID=101&Archive=0&FormatId=0

C5

So it is now big news when a single AM station converts to HD! I wouldn't want to try to listen to classical music on AM IBOC's overcompressed algorithm. It plays havoc with high frequencies. IBOC AM is no good for music.

Anything that is a rarity and an oddity is big news. You know, like a two-headed chicken or Jesus' face appearing in a grilled cheese sandwich.

That an AM station in a congested market like LA would consider HD is news, particularly considering the interference potential. Of course, Saul Levine has always been a big promoter of HD Radio. But this installation may well test the limits of adjacent channel interference as well as the FCC's response to it.

C5
 
Savage said:
And thanks so much for once again obnoxiously deriding what I do for a living. You know: "AM Radio"

You are welcome. I hope you have some savings, because as AM audiences age each year, like clockwork, and larger operators move talk to FM (like Cox is doing in San Antonio this week), there will not be much left for AM to do.

It's curious that in the Panama-HD thread, you chose to post a link to photos depicting a showcase Brazilian 100kw AM facility on 710 kHz. I believe your comment was to the effect that it "put most major market US stations to shame" as an example of the forward-thinking broadcast operators in Latin America.

The station is in Argentina. And Argentina, wisely, allocated very few AMs historically. None are directional by regulation, although Radio 10 did so to put more signal over the very noisy center of Buenos Aires, a market of about 18 million. The few stations that were licensed are fulltime, and have big power. No suburban stations, no shoehorned directionals.

Because of this, so far, the AM band has decent listening levels, although the age is mostly over 40. Eventually, event there, AM will decline and the formats will migrate to FM.

Of course, my comment about the technical quality of facilities was not band-specific. It had more to do with the idea that you brought up that the junk of American radio went to LAtin America. In truth, AM or FM, the good stations in Latin America are comparable or better equipped than their US counterparts.

Guess it was pretty stupid for the Brazilians to build that high-power AM facility since it's "futile" to "save AM," right? Or are you arguing that the only place in the hemisphere where it's "all over for AM" is in the USA?

The US policy on AM was based on the very concentrated cities of the 20's and 30's (read the documentation on the 1927 and 1934 radio acts at www.americanradiohistory.com) and never contemplated a change from a rural to an urban majority nor did it consider urban / suburban sprawl that grew cities beyond the reach of all but a few radio stations.

Because there are so few viable AMs in the larger US markets (one source saus around 200 total in the top 100 markets) most Ams can not compete with the larger-coverage FMs, and have given up trying to run ethnic and religious shows and such.

So, yes, US telecommunications policy failed to see ahead in time, and filled the dial with lots of useless stations that became ever less viable over time.

Back here on Planet Earth: the only segment of the radio industry which is showing steady year-to-year growth is mostly-AM talk radio. The music formats, mostly cookie-cutter corporate products, are the ones in revenue freefall.

From the data I see the AM news talk stations are getting hit as hard or harder than the FMs, and the old age of the listeners is compounding the problem. Every week we see one or more AM talk based formats migrate to FM, either totally or as a simulcast. A number of trade magazines like RBR and Radio Ink have had articles along the lines of "2009: the year for FM talk" and such.

Some countries have engineered moves to FM by all or most AMs... Canada has cleard 60% of the AMs off the band, and Mexico is aiming at more than 80%. Unfortunately, our small-signal based allocations scheme will not allow this here. Unfortunate.
 
Savage said:
And thanks so much for once again obnoxiously deriding what I do for a living. You know: "AM Radio??"

It's curious that in the Panama-HD thread, you chose to post a link to photos depicting a showcase Brazilian 100kw AM facility on 710 kHz. I believe your comment was to the effect that it "put most major market US stations to shame" as an example of the forward-thinking broadcast operators in Latin America.

Guess it was pretty stupid for the Brazilians to build that high-power AM facility since it's "futile" to "save AM," right? Or are you arguing that the only place in the hemisphere where it's "all over for AM" is in the USA?

Back here on Planet Earth: truth be told (and notwithstanding the endless doomsday chant from David "Eduardo" Gleason) the only segment of the radio industry which is showing steady year-to-year growth is mostly-AM talk radio. The music formats, mostly cookie-cutter corporate products, are the ones in revenue freefall.

Savage, my main gig is AM as well. But David is right. In a few years, I'm hosed. Not that I dislike what I do or AM, but those of us who've been working AM formats forever are dead in the water. Ratings are going down and it within a short time, we'll need to look for something else. It's just the formats I've worked in are dead and are dying: Full Service AC, Nostalgia, N/T on AM, and now doing Spanish talk. I stopped programming a station that was always ranked in the top 5 (even as an AM with a Regional Mexican format), when I learned an FM with the same format was coming in. Since that time, the station's ratings have tanked. I exited the PD chair just in time. I hope it will survive a while longer, my boss has been good to me, but I have to be a realist. I do hope and pray for a miracle, but I don't see it happening.

I may be booed and hissed at, but the the best solution would be to mandate IBOC FM and force many of the AM's on HD-2's and HD-3's. There is not a whole lot of other spectrum available. The only other idea may be to somehow totally change MW''s modulation scheme (total digital, but not IBOC AM due to its shortcomings, especially at night), but due to the inherent problems of where it is located on the spectrum, it is not likely nor feasible economically.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Carmine5 said:
The amusing thing about KGIL is the LA spin Levine tries to put on the station, such as giving it a Beverly Hills address. The tower site is actually in the San Fernando Valley which makes it difficult to get reliable reception in the LA basin due to the terrain.

The station is licensed to Beverly Hills, and puts the required field intensity over the COL.

710's transmitter is in the SFV, too. It's an LA license.

KGIL was originally licensed to San Fernando, CA. In an attempt to artificially increase the value of the station, Levine changed the COL to Beverly Hills. The station had a crappy signal going into the LA basin and, for the most part, still does.

C5
 
KB1OKL said:
99% of the talk stations here in MA are AMers

Not for long... as the age of the AM stations' audiences increases, the move to FM will begin. In PPM, WRKO and WBZ and WTKK are in a near dead heat for 25-54... and as time goes on, the balance in the sales demos will shift to FM.
 
Argentina. Brazil. Paraguay. Whatever. This is the HD Radio board, not the Latin American Radio board. Who cares? You posted the link, not me, and it has nothing to do with the current discussion anyway.

My station has been profitable for 11 of the past 11 years, has won a number of community awards and in the two years you've been predicting doom for me and my operation, it's actually grown 40% in revenue. We haven't laid a single person off. EVER. We outbill numerous FMs in the market (and would do even better but for the nighttime interference from WBZ-HD.) Which goes to show: you know about as much about my AM operation as you do about Arbitron PPM, the AM band's allocation history, HD Radio, directional AM arrays and Arbitron PPM - which is to say, enough to shoot your mouth off arrogantly, make yourself look silly and drive away intelligent discourse.

As far as the industry goes, sure AM's been declining. Guess why? Anybody stupid enough to crud up a magnificent 50kw signal - in many cases, nondirectional unlimited hours - with IBOC hash and tinny analog audio is capable of screwing up just about anything. In case you haven't noticed, Big Group Radio is trashing FM even faster than it's destroying its AMs (in many cases deliberately interfering with co-owned adjacent AM facilities at night, all in the name of HD.) The revenue losses for FM industrywide outstrip AM's problems by a wide margin, which should put the AM plight in perspective.

As long as you're dispensing unsolicited personal advice I'll join in. My recommendation is for you to continue hiding behind your ersatz "Latin" persona and blathering about the superiority of Central American radio while denigrating the US industry and individuals who are actually making successful radio happen here - and do so from the safety of a Constitutional democratically elected republic. If you were to actually move to one of your beloved banana republics and behave the way you do, the junta will shove you up against some stuccoed wall and prang you.
 
Technical note and disclaimer: the previous post has some errors in useage and construction. As I was composing the post, even though I had only been in Reply mode for about 6 or 7 minutes, the site advised that I had "timed out" and that I should try again later. What I had written disappeared, so I closed radio-info. I see now that the site has posted my unedited text from earlier. Apologies for, for example, the double "PPM" reference.
 
As far as the industry goes, sure AM's been declining. Guess why? Anybody stupid enough to crud up a magnificent 50kw signal - in many cases, nondirectional unlimited hours - with IBOC hash and tinny analog audio is capable of screwing up just about anything. In case you haven't noticed, Big Group Radio is trashing FM even faster than it's destroying its AMs (in many cases deliberately interfering with co-owned adjacent AM facilities at night, all in the name of HD.) The revenue losses for FM industrywide outstrip AM's problems by a wide margin, which should put the AM plight in perspective.

Savage, you obviously don't get it. AM was in decline long before IBOC hit. Audience share loss began as a trickle in the late seventies and then as a stream in the eighties. In the 90's, it became a river, and now it's an ocean.
 
The appearance of HD on KGIL coincides neatly with the its disapearrance on WLS.
Citadel probably sold their WLS splatterbox to KGIL for whatever the market would bear.
 
Savage said:
Argentina. Brazil. Paraguay. Whatever. This is the HD Radio board, not the Latin American Radio board.
Who cares? You posted the link, not me, and it has nothing to do with the current discussion anyway.

Excuse me, but you were one of several persons who suggested that abandoned HD equipment would end up in Latin America, where, according to you, old, outdated gear goes to die. I simply stated that the better
stations in Latin America are as well equipped, or better, than those in equivalent US markets.

And I clearly mentioned a station in Argentina, and included a link that shows the AM site of a station in
Argentina. Conclusion: your may need to refer to a map a little more often.

My station has been profitable for 11 of the past 11 years, has won a number of community awards and in the two years you've been predicting doom for me and my operation, it's actually grown 40% in revenue.

If you check back on the posts, I have been referring to an eventual demise of AM as a number of things
happen. First, the average age of listeners to the band increases by a year every 18 months, so, over the
next 10 years, the band's listeners will mostly be over 60, and nearly all of them will be out of any sales
demos, even for most direct accounts. Then, the formats that still have a hold on listeners are ever more
hastily moving to FM, either transitioning by simulcast or just plain moving. And finally, we have
constantly increasing noise levels, with the CFL the latest aggressor, making AM hard to listen even with
field strengths on the order of 10 to 15 mV/m.

If you are making money now, I suggest you save a lot of it, or try to buy a few of the FMs that you say
are not doing well so you have a backup plan or an exit strategy.

We haven't laid a single person off. EVER. We outbill numerous FMs in the market (and would do
even better but for the nighttime interference from WBZ-HD.) Which goes to show: you know about as much
about my AM operation as you do about Arbitron PPM, the AM band's allocation history, HD Radio, directional
AM arrays and Arbitron PPM - which is to say, enough to shoot your mouth off arrogantly, make yourself look
silly and drive away intelligent discourse.

Let's take those accusations one by one.

PPM. I have been involved with the PPM development for over 10 years. For the Philadelphia tests, I was
part of a small group of advertising and media representatives who participated in the review of the
Philadelphia tests. I've been analyzing test results from the PPM for 8 years, and have even been asked by
Arbitron to assist in the development of PD Advantage for PPM. Beyond PPM, I've given seminars for Arbitron
for it's Mexican service on several occasions and my reviews of diaries have resulted in multiple books
being reissued. I'm the only person who managed to get a trend reissued in 29 years. I don't think my
comments on PPM make me look silly; I'd say if you don't understand my comments perhaps you need to read the material available on PPM from Arbitron and a variety of consultants and take the on line training
Arbitron offers. While the roll out of the top 50 markets does not include Rochester, the second phase
likely will.

I've designed and built functioning AM directionals, and as to knowledge of allocation history, you might
check out www.americanradiohistory.com which documents allocations, regulation and stations themselves
going back to the mid 20's.

As far as the industry goes, sure AM's been declining. Guess why? Anybody stupid enough to crud up
a magnificent 50kw signal - in many cases, nondirectional unlimited hours - with IBOC hash and tinny analog
audio is capable of screwing up just about anything.

The receivers made in the last 30 years are incapable of any fidelity. The NRSC committee headed by Bob
Orban (of whom I trust you have heard) determined that a broad range of consumer receivers was down 10 db at 3.8 kHz, and that a rolloff around 6 kHz was optimal for such receivers and actually made them sound
better than pushing higher frequency audio through a system that could not reproduce it.

Why are these bad radios so pervasive and good ones barely exist? Blame WalMart, Bed Bath and Beyond and the places most radios are sold... they look for the lowest cost suppliers, and a dime is a big cost
difference. Since these folks see AM is barely used by most consumers, they have allowed the AM stage to be degraded over cost issues... because they know that radios will never be returned because the AM sounds
tinny.

In case you haven't noticed, Big Group Radio is trashing FM even faster than it's destroying its
AMs (in many cases deliberately interfering with co-owned adjacent AM facilities at night, all in the name
of HD.) The revenue losses for FM industry-wide outstrip AM's problems by a wide margin, which should put
the AM plight in perspective.

The revenue declines have affected AM and FM alike... whether they are caused by the economy or the shift
to new media. Since there are only a limited number of major billers on AM in the rated markets, of course,
there are fewer AMs declining in revenue due to the economy... the religious and brokered stations are a bit more immune to the effects of the economy as they are not ad based.

My recommendation is for you to continue hiding behind your ersatz "Latin" persona and blathering
about the superiority of Central American radio while denigrating the US industry and individuals who are
actually making successful radio happen here - and do so from the safety of a Constitutional democratically
elected republic.

There is nothing "Ersatz" about my persona, as "David" and "Eduardo" are my given names. I use them to have a separate Internet identity only...

I neither denigrated the US radio industry nor hyped Central American radio (most Central American radio is
kind of like medium and small market US radio... there are no really big markets). However, I have said
that it is unfair to say that Latin American stations are the dumping ground for old US gear... some buy
used gear, but most buy "the good stuff" as my example was intended to show.

Nearly all Latin American governments are, in fact, elected democratically.

If you were to actually move to one of your beloved banana republics and behave the way you do,
the junta will shove you up against some stuccoed wall and prang you.

I actually lived most of my teen and adult life where Spanish is the official language. And some nations
are, indeed, different from the US. But most of the people cherish the same values and ideals. And when
things to wrong, there can be dire consequences. When I lost my stations in Ecuador, 12 of them on the air
and a dozen more CPs, it was because one of my stations allied with a daily paper to encourage the military
government to honor its promise of a return to democracy. I saw the wrong end of a bunch of rifles, while
my counterpart at the newspaper was "disappeared." So don't preach to someone who has lived what you can only imagine, based on some stereotyped Hollywood movie.
 
I thought that the last sentence in your previous unintended post which now seems to be gone was constructed rather well though, succinct and to the prang, haha!.
 
From my weekend experiences with the radio-info site, and from the Management thread, it appears there are technical problems. I actually never got the chance to post an edited version of my response to David, and the draft version has appeared and disappeared several times.

I also posted in the Western New York thread and that post is likewise gone. In both cases I got a red flag in the entry field advising that my reply had "timed out," even though I was only there for a few minutes. I refreshed the page and the post reappeared, but my name wasn't indicated on the summary page.

I saw from a message to the Moderator from another poster that others are having the same problems.

I think you can get the gist of what I was saying from "Eduardo's" quotes.
 
There is nothing "Ersatz" about my persona, as "David" and "Eduardo" are my given names. I use them to have a separate Internet identity only...

Funny, I've been thinking about adopting a separate internet identity also. Maybe something like Estanial the Man or David Del
Stanlio...still working on it...

How many times have people declared the AM band "dead"? Check the markets, those groups who have not bought into the "AM is is for old farts" line still have a dominant AM at the top of the rankings.

As for AM talk going to FM...We have it all backwards. The FM's that are going all talk are doing so because they weren't successful in their previous format. How the hell is that an adverse reflection on AM broadcasting?
 
It's a shame FM is being used increasingly for talk...Rush, Hannity, Ingraham, etc. in glorious 50Hz-15kHz Mono - on a signal that can support Stereo.
Tragic waste of spectrum.... Sure, the reasoning includes building penetration, increased noise levels on AM, etc., to go to FM but it's still a waste.
Something like Sirius XM uses to adjust the bandwidth to the need would be great, of course, that would require digital radio (NOT I-BLOCK, though)
 
Something like Sirius XM uses to adjust the bandwidth to the need would be great, of course, that would require digital radio (NOT I-BLOCK, though)

No, not HD but then again, There's no monthly bill for listening to HD radio. If Sirius keeps bleeding money they'll soon be broadcasting the sounds of silence 24/7 on all channels.
 
R.F. Burns said:
Something like Sirius XM uses to adjust the bandwidth to the need would be great, of course, that would require digital radio (NOT I-BLOCK, though)

No, not HD but then again, There's no monthly bill for listening to HD radio.

That begs the question: who would pay for something that has the SOS on it and can't be received reliably? I pay for Sirius-XM because of two things: its has great content and it's extremely reliable. I still listen to both AM and FM radio but certainly not to iBlock, it's an insult to anyone with any intelligence, especially AM iBlock which is more than completely useless, it's horrendous and should be illegal according to the FCC's own rules which they are ignoring.
 
stacker said:
How many times have people declared the AM band "dead"? Check the markets, those groups who have not bought into the "AM is is for old farts" line still have a dominant AM at the top of the rankings.

And those "dominant" AMs are not nearly so dominant if you look at the age groups that advertisers seek. In some cases, we have "Dominant AMs" like KGO that are not even in the top 15 in 25-54, where the ad money is.

With few exceptions, those "big" AMs are not even Top 10 in the sales demos.

As for AM talk going to FM...We have it all backwards. The FM's that are going all talk are doing so because they weren't successful in their previous format. How the hell is that an adverse reflection on AM broadcasting?

And that is normal (although there have been exceptions). A company would not take its best performing FM and put the AM's ageing talk format on it, would they? No, they would say that the future of talk is on FM, and we are going to sacrifice the worst performing FM in the cluster and simulcast with the AM or even move the AM format to it.
 
C'mon David all this talk about demographics and money is nonsense. We all know that AM radio is there for DXing. Why, if you counted up all of those people who listen to AM radio stations via skywave on a regular basis in 2009, you'd need to use all ten of your fingers on both hands to do so!!
 
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