KGO Age Discriminatin?

[DavidKaye]

Discrimination is a tricky thing. There are times when it's okay to discriminate against someone. You operate a diner called Hooters and what you're selling is the attention of big-breasted women. It is okay to discriminate against men and against small-breasted women. You operate a diner called McDonald's. You're selling low-priced assembly-line burgers and fries. It is not okay to discriminate against men or against small-breated women. Okay, we've got that part.

You operate a satellite station called XM/Sirius. On one of your channels you're trying to get the ears of males ages 18 to 35. You have a guy named Howard Stern, who is 56 years old. The fact that he is 56 does not prevent his ability to get listeners age 18 to 35. In fact, he's a big draw in that age group. So, age, in and of itself has not been shown to be a criterion on which to base radio hiring.

Then you operate a station called KGO. You fire everybody over age 60 because you want to reach listeners 25 to 54. As evidenced by Len Tillem and Gil Gross, being over 60 did not prevent them from bringing in the listenership they want.

I've been wracking my brain to come up with reasons why Len Tillem and Gil Gross were let go from KGO. This has got to be it: age discrimination.

Lawsuits anyone?

 

[LKellerIII]

The company I work for recently won an age discrimination case filed by 3 employees who had been laid off due to the economy. All 3 were in their late 50s to early 60s. But we were able to demonstrate that their positions were eliminated due to business necessity, and the fact that they were older was coincidental.

As applied to KGO - since the station was changing formats, the burden of proof would be on Tillem and Gross to prove that their age was the reason for their termination. I believe that all of the KGO talk hosts were older, so that wouldn't help their case, either.

 

[DavidKaye]

As applied to KGO - since the station was changing formats, the burden of proof would be on Tillem and Gross to prove that their age was the reason for their termination. I believe that all of the KGO talk hosts were older, so that wouldn't help their case, either.

But the ones they kept -- Brian Copeland, Pat Thurston, Karel, Michael Finney, Brent Walters, and all the news staff except Lloyd Lindsay Young (who is over 60) -- are all under age 60. Christine Craft is the singular exception, but she's not on the host roster. John Hamilton's program is an infomercial, so he doesn't count.

Looks fairly clear to me that this is age discrimination by Cumulus. I'd like to see someone sue over this. Now, I'm the guy who was always ragging on about attracting younger audiences, sure. But one does not have to be younger to attract younger audiences, as evidenced by Len Tillem, Gil Gross, Howard Stern, or even Rush Limbaugh for that matter.

 

[TheBigA]

Looks fairly clear to me that this is age discrimination by Cumulus. I'd like to see someone sue over this.

It's a union shop, no? If so, that was already considered.

 

[Shoot From Hip]

Maybe it's salary discrimination...they eliminated the most costly people.

 

[RicoGregg]

Maybe it's salary discrimination...they eliminated the most costly people.

IMO, this is the most probable theory. The dismissed hosts probably had their benefits package under an old ABC plan, which had been passed from ABC to Capital Cities ABC, to Disney, to Citadel, and now to Cumulus, which probably found that the color of the "golden parachutes" of some long time personnel had changed to platinum.

The dismissals probably amount to "a golden handshake."

 

[Garver]

Age discrimination is a hard one to win. Unless there is a clear directive or casual but verified remark given by management, either verbally or in writing, that states that age is a factor or an impediment to employment. There are too many other factors that enter into the picture for an ex-employee to claim and win an age discrimination suit. And, just as in theater or movies, the owners can't be expected to hire 60 year old actors for parts written or produced to appeal to young audiences. The courts will recognize their right to cast appropriately. Radio is being managed by spreadsheet analysis now. How much does the talent/daypart/program bring in and how much are they spending for that return? ROI. Cumulus can easily show declining ratings and revenue for everyone on the station.

 

[sloux]

David, I've been thinking all afternoon about the loss of Gil Gross in particular. I may be slightly off topic, but Gil is someone I have admired in radio for over twenty years for his consummate professionalism in radio. Gil is clever, relevant, warm and funny. He is also an outstanding newsman. His ability to connect with people is not dependent on relative ages of this broadcaster to his audience. While I completely disagree with the decision to dump the talk format, if I take a moment to pretend and embrace such a move, don't I want to keep Gil in afternoon drive as my news anchor? With his ABC Radio News pedigree and success in his field, he stands at the top of the heap of talented folks in Bay Area radio, at least on par with guys like Stan Bunger or Leo Laporte (Leo is not associated with news in particular, but he is one of the most talented radio professionals with whom I have ever had the pleasure to work).

Of course, the come-back to such a proposition might be contract issues or golden parachutes referenced earlier in this thread, but it really couldn't be money could it? I have no idea what the guy makes, but if he came with a $100K premium over a lesser-known news talent, the sum would seem trivial to the amount of extra revenue he might generate.

 

[TheBigA]

but if he came with a $100K premium over a lesser-known news talent, the sum would seem trivial to the amount of extra revenue he might generate.

I think he's had a long time to demonstrate the amount of revenue he generates. There's a track record to look at. They may not know the subtilties of individual skills, but they definitely can see the costs and revenues. And in the end, they decided spending the amount they've been spending on talent isn't going to lead to increased revenues. As someone else said, it's not about age, but cost. These guys just became way too expensive given the realities of AM radio today.

 

[michael hagerty]

You actually made Cumulus' case for them. Howard Stern can deliver listeners considerably younger than he is. The KGO hosts have not been able to.

But the simplest answer is that KGO doesn't need talk show hosts if they're not going to do talk shows.

 

[DavidKaye]

IMO, this is the most probable theory. The dismissed hosts probably had their benefits package under an old ABC plan, which had been passed from ABC to Capital Cities ABC, to Disney, to Citadel, and now to Cumulus, which probably found that the color of the "golden parachutes" of some long time personnel had changed to platinum.

Len Tillem, John Rothmann, and Gil Gross were all hired under Citadel, already known as a tightwad company.

 

[DavidKaye]

You actually made Cumulus' case for them. Howard Stern can deliver listeners considerably younger than he is. The KGO hosts have not been able to.

Both Len Tillem and Gil Gross *could* deliver those desired demos. That's my whole point, at least from my memory looking at an hourly Arbitron breakout of about 6 months ago.

 

[radio dx]

I don't think age is the issue at KGO, in my opinion it has to do with $ and in Ronn Owens case ( I am sure he's not a youngster) I believe he is too popular to let go but you never know he is paid well (time will tell).

The new KGO brass came in with a bulldozer and I believe they did a lot of damage and made too many changes in a short amount of time and you'll see changes in the folks that think they are doing the right moves gone as well....watch how this mess shakes out.

When you loose advertising dollars the decision makers will not be around long.

 

[LKellerIII]

I don't think age is the issue at KGO, in my opinion it has to do with $ and in Ronn Owens case ( I am sure he's not a youngster)

Ronn Owens is 66.

 

[RicoGregg]

IMO, this is the most probable theory. The dismissed hosts probably had their benefits package under an old ABC plan, which had been passed from ABC to Capital Cities ABC, to Disney, to Citadel, and now to Cumulus, which probably found that the color of the "golden parachutes" of some long time personnel had changed to platinum.

Len Tillem, John Rothmann, and Gil Gross were all hired under Citadel, already known as a tightwad company.

And the tenure of the unmentioned Ray Taliaferro went back to before the sale of ABC to Cap Cities.

If what happened at KGO is the same as what happened with Jim Ladd and KLOS in L.A., then there were probably long time off-the-air staffers also let go. Around a dozen people were let go along with Ladd in So Cal.

I can remember ABC in the 60s being referred to as a "cheap company", especially by people who worked at places like CBS, NBC, and movie studios. One longtime joke about them was that ABC stood for "Always Been Cheap".

Now people on the old ABC plan are now considered too expensive. How times have changed.

Or, is it a case of "The more things change, the more they stay the same?"

Meet the new boss, perhaps? ???

 

[LKellerIII]

IMO, this is the most probable theory. The dismissed hosts probably had their benefits package under an old ABC plan, which had been passed from ABC to Capital Cities ABC, to Disney, to Citadel, and now to Cumulus, which probably found that the color of the "golden parachutes" of some long time personnel had changed to platinum.

Len Tillem, John Rothmann, and Gil Gross were all hired under Citadel, already known as a tightwad company.

And the tenure of the unmentioned Ray Taliaferro went back to before the sale of ABC to Cap Cities.

Are you sure? What year did Cap Cities take over? I'm asking because I owned a video business in the 80s. Noah Griffin - Ray's predecessor on the graveyard shift, was one of our customers. We apeared a few times on Noah's show at 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning to talk about movies, new release videos, etc. KGO studios were still on Golden Gate Avenue in the Tenderloin at that time. That was about 1984 - 85. Ray replaced Noah not long after that. It seems top me that Cap Cities was already in charge. That's about the time they blew Van Amburg out of Channel 7, reportedly because he was making too much money.

 

[RicoGregg]

According to our informative friends at Wikipedia, Capital Cities bought ABC in 1986.

Ray Taliaferro had worked weekends at KGO before taking over 1-5 am full time. Previously, he had been at Oakland's KNEW.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Broadcasting_Company

Last, but not least, usually reliable sources inform us that Ray started at KGO in 1977. I knew I remembered hearing him there in the 70s. I think he filled in for Bob Trebor at times.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Taliaferro

 

[michael hagerty]

You actually made Cumulus' case for them. Howard Stern can deliver listeners considerably younger than he is. The KGO hosts have not been able to.

Both Len Tillem and Gil Gross *could* deliver those desired demos. That's my whole point, at least from my memory looking at an hourly Arbitron breakout of about 6 months ago.

But not sufficiently to put the station in any better position than #20 25-54.

 

[michael hagerty]

I don't think age is the issue at KGO, in my opinion it has to do with $ and in Ronn Owens case ( I am sure he's not a youngster) I believe he is too popular to let go.

No, he's too expensive to let go...at the moment. Ronn was the only KGO host to have a no-cut contract. What that means is that if you sign a five year deal with Ronn and you decide to dump him after a year, you still have to pay him the remaining four years.

That's an example. I don't know what's left on Ronn's contract. I've heard one year, I've heard two. Whatever it is, it's more money than Cumulus wants to pay to make him go away. When the amount of time left on his contract coincides with an amount of money Cumulus is willing to pay him to go home and do nothing, they'll turn him loose.

 

[MC]

They kept Christine Craft and she's really old.