KGO: Back to the future?

[fred flintstone]

Holland forgot to mention...

KGO, San Francisco won the Marconi Award for Major Market Station of the Year and Talk Station of the Year.

KGO dominates talk radio in its home market (and in neighboring markets).
KGO is ALL local.
Hosts are personalities - not ideologues.
Hosts represent differing viewpoints.

We have seen the past - and it works.

 

[Holland Cooke]

Hey, not so fast...

I didn't forget...
I didn't forget...
THIS VERY AFTERNOON, I'm organizing my notes, which I'll post-a-link-to-here.

But as long as we're impatient for kudos and saludos, three more News/Talk/Sports honors to note:

Marconi for Large Market Station of the Year: WEEI/Boston
Marconi for Sports Station of the Year: WEEI/Boston
Marconi for Small Market Station of the Year: KGMI/Bellingham.

Not News/Talk, but SWEET: Marconi for CHR Station of the Year:
WSTW/Wilmington DE, sister of my client WDEL.
They beat stations in LA, Dallas, and Denver.
Accepting, PD John Wilson got a big hand when he said, "LET'S HEAR IT FOR THE LITTLE GUY!"

And recipient of R&R's Executive of The Year award: my associate Mike McVay.

"LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET'S HAVE A BIG HAND FOR THESE WINNERS!"

HC

 

[fred flintstone]

Re: Hey, not so fast...

I didn't forget...
I didn't forget...
THIS VERY AFTERNOON, I'm organizing my notes, which I'll post-a-link-to-here.

Sorry, I saw the 'STW item was up on the Delaware board yesterday morning, but nothing for us.

WDEL is good-sounding, tightly run operation. A medium market station with a solid local news block in AM drive, two - count 'em local talk shows during the day, plus local sports talk in the evening. In many ways, not unlike KGO. Although, how could you let them pick up a consistently-trailing competitor, whose on-air sound does not fit in, doing bad interviews with people with heavy accents in cities most people can't spell? One major sour note in an otherwise solid line-up and a highly effective killer of audience flow.

 

[Holland Cooke]

WDEL

Now, now.
Don't be so subjective.

One year after Clear Channel bought competitor WILM, and yanked Rush Limbaugh away from us, the on-air talent to-whom-you-refer BEATS Maha Rushie in the ratings.

Local lives!

 

[fred flintstone]

Re: WDEL

Now, now.
Don't be so subjective.

One year after Clear Channel bought competitor WILM, and yanked Rush Limbaugh away from us, the on-air talent to-whom-you-refer BEATS Maha Rushie in the ratings.

Local lives!

The nice thing about Arbitron books, there are enough cells in the tables so - to paraphrase Pete Roselle - any given station can beat any other given station in something.

Subjective? Does this mean you have a different assessment of the on-air talent in question?

I can appreciate the problem with using your real name online is this can inhibit a candor in discussing clients or potential clients.

Local lives - all things being equal or nearly equal. Bad local does not beat good syndicated. When Rush started in syndication, talk radio was local (minor exceptions noted). He had to beat out local shows to establish himself - and the possibility of syndicated talk radio.

The talent-in-question gained some notoriety by being the first PD to drop Rush more than a decade ago, claiming to anyone who would listen that the show had "peaked." Coincidentally, that was right after Jacor started charging stations for the show.

 

[Holland Cooke]

RE "Bad local does not beat good syndicated."

Amen!

Although...don't you already know what Rush will say next?

 

[fred flintstone]

Re: RE "Bad local does not beat good syndicated."

Amen!
Although...don't you already know what Rush will say next?

Oh, yes. It has reached that point.
However, it wasn't always that way.
He's been doing the same shtick for 22 years (if you include Sacramento).
Even Carson's act was starting to wear thin his last decade or so.
There is some wisdom in knowing when to quit. But he's in a position from which it is very difficult to walk away.
Maybe if his party loses power, that will put some life back into his show. Maybe not.
Sometimes he sounds bored.
Sort of like a once-legendary Top40 jock who's been stuck in some kind of time warp on an Oldies station for 30 years.

I don't have the access you do to Arbitron numbers in different markets, but "subjectively" ...
Rush did peak in the last few years.
But he's still better than the next "seven dwarfs" of conservative talk who wish they were on top.

 

[Holland Cooke]

RE "Rush did peak in the last few years."

Sure seems that way, eh?
And he does sound bored sometimes.

But Arbitron is "a memory test."
So sheer familiarity is worth a lot.
Quick! Who's the biggest star on Talk radio?

<< But he's still better than the next "seven dwarfs" of conservative talk who wish they were on top.>>

Correct...TO THE EXTENT THAT politics is an issue.
Most listeners just don't care about politics that much.

 

[DougD]

Fred,
I thought the exper on these boards, David, told us KGO needed to be turned off and programming needed to be moved to three translator FMs in 'Frisco.

You make it sound like KGO is successful.

 

[FightingIrish]

Fred,
I thought the exper on these boards, David, told us KGO needed to be turned off and programming needed to be moved to three translator FMs in 'Frisco.

You make it sound like KGO is successful.

I remember that post! Laughed my ass off! Does he really think KGO would be #1 if it were on three Class A rimshots?

KGO is doing fine where it is. Remember, they tried the FM talk thing back in the 80s (KGO-FM) before they sold it (103.7). I was kinda bummed when they flipped to talk at the time, because I lived in the East Bay and I liked the previous rock format as KSFX.

And it's not like Free FM is doing all that great in the ratings. It's the biggest FM stick next to KIOI, cost CBS a fortune to obtain (a powerful AM signal and millions in cash), and it's failing miserably.

 

[fred flintstone]

We may all live to see the news-talk format relocate to the FM band.
It's already happening in Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, Phoenix and DC (off the top of my head - maybe others).
Will that get younger demos for traditional news-talk (liberal or conservative varieties)? Jury is still out.
But as music listeners migrate to satellite radio, Internet radio or other emerging technologies, local-live talk based formats maybe the best options for FM programming.
AM is not going to live forever; the technology is 100 years old (KCBS claims to be in 97 this year).
Most radio people seem willing to be embrace new technology everywhere - except at the transmitter site.
People who want to hang on to AM should be consistent and use ETs, too.

 

[FightingIrish]

We may all live to see the news-talk format relocate to the FM band.
It's already happening in Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, Phoenix and DC (off the top of my head - maybe others).
Will that get younger demos for traditional news-talk (liberal or conservative varieties)? Jury is still out.
But as music listeners migrate to satellite radio, Internet radio or other emerging technologies, local-live talk based formats maybe the best options for FM programming.
AM is not going to live forever; the technology is 100 years old (KCBS claims to be in 97 this year).
Most radio people seem willing to be embrace new technology everywhere - except at the transmitter site.
People who want to hang on to AM should be consistent and use ETs, too.

Clear Channel started up FM talk stations in the Twin Cities, Pittsburgh and Madison because they had no substantial AM stations to do it with. WPGB in Pittsburgh has been doing well, but not as good as the 800 lb. gorilla, KDKA. WXXM in Madison is an AAR station, and has also been successful. KTLK-FM in the Twin Cities switched to talk at the beginning of the year. They picked up Rush and Hannity when KSTP decided to dump them and go local. The result? The big 100,000 watt KTLK gets roughly the same ratings as the Salem conservotalker (AM), the local AAR affiliate (AM) and WFMP, an FM talk station that targets women. WCCO and KSTP have little to worry about (yes, there is a lot of talk radio in this market).

Talk is being done mostly on FM due to lack of strong FM signals by the owner, or a desire to do something else with the AM (KTAR-AM will eventually flip to sports). The main exception is Hot Talk, where CBS is adamant about their FM Talk format, "Free FM". Unfortunately, a big FM stick that doesn't fade out under bridges does not necessarily translate to bigger ratings.

 

[radiophiler]

I think Bonneville is moving its news stations to FM because they realize that they will get better demos (closer to 25-54 or 35-54) on FM than on AM.

This station may not be every news/talk person's cup of tea, but don't forget New Jersey 101.5 with its Trenton-NJ-based signal. Why more stations aren't trying this ... I'll never understand. (OK, yeah, I know, because it costs more money.)

It's not the absolute guy-talk of the Free FMs. And it's not your father's AM talk station, either. AND, they have a decent news department and frequent traffic and weather. AND, they don't rely on sports.

AND 100% local.

 

[Radio_Realist]

"Clear Channel started up FM talk stations in the Twin Cities, Pittsburgh and Madison because they had no substantial AM stations to do it with. WPGB in Pittsburgh has been doing well, but not as good as the 800 lb.
gorilla, KDKA."

However, WPGB is stealing enough listeners from KDKA that its "brother" station (as they refer to it on the air) WDVE is now #1. Clear Channel could have very easily switched their AM property, WWSW from sports talk to news/talk, but they decided to convert 104.7 FM because that station was doing extremely poorly, and had been doing poorly with a wide range of music formats. I don't know what Clear Channel does in other cities, but here in Pittsburgh their strategy is to "protect the Mothership" (WDVE). Everything they do with their other stations is filtered through a "how will this affect WDVE filter?".

And, though it is taking time, KDKA is slipping, and slipping badly. Their audience was already extremely old, now it's getting ancient. They lost Rush Limbaugh to WPGB, and now they've lost the Pirates to WPGB as well.

One thing I don't think is a significant trend is the moving of news/talk stations to FM. It will happen, but not as any sort of a master strategic plan. If an owner of a cluster of stations has an underperforming FM available, then they might switch it to news/talk. I don't think you'll see many cluster owners with a news/talker on the AM band move that programming to the FM band just for the sake of doing it.

 

[FightingIrish]

I think Bonneville is moving its news stations to FM because they realize that they will get better demos (closer to 25-54 or 35-54) on FM than on AM.

This station may not be every news/talk person's cup of tea, but don't forget New Jersey 101.5 with its Trenton-NJ-based signal. Why more stations aren't trying this ... I'll never understand. (OK, yeah, I know, because it costs more money.)

It's not the absolute guy-talk of the Free FMs. And it's not your father's AM talk station, either. AND, they have a decent news department and frequent traffic and weather. AND, they don't rely on sports.

AND 100% local.

NJ101.5 does succeed because it is virtually the only talk station in the state geared toward New Jersey, rather than New York or Philly. The FM's signal allows it to get out farther, as opposed to any available AM station. What helped them most is very good programming.

"Clear Channel started up FM talk stations in the Twin Cities, Pittsburgh and Madison because they had no substantial AM stations to do it with. WPGB in Pittsburgh has been doing well, but not as good as the 800 lb.
gorilla, KDKA."

However, WPGB is stealing enough listeners from KDKA that its "brother" station (as they refer to it on the air) WDVE is now #1. Clear Channel could have very easily switched their AM property, WWSW from sports talk to news/talk, but they decided to convert 104.7 FM because that station was doing extremely poorly, and had been doing poorly with a wide range of music formats. I don't know what Clear Channel does in other cities, but here in Pittsburgh their strategy is to "protect the Mothership" (WDVE). Everything they do with their other stations is filtered through a "how will this affect WDVE filter?".

And, though it is taking time, KDKA is slipping, and slipping badly. Their audience was already extremely old, now it's getting ancient. They lost Rush Limbaugh to WPGB, and now they've lost the Pirates to WPGB as well.

One thing I don't think is a significant trend is the moving of news/talk stations to FM. It will happen, but not as any sort of a master strategic plan. If an owner of a cluster of stations has an underperforming FM available, then they might switch it to news/talk. I don't think you'll see many cluster owners with a news/talker on the AM band move that programming to the FM band just for the sake of doing it.

WDVE vs. KDKA is basically just for bragging rights. I doubt they share the same demos, especially since KDKA seems to have abandoned all sports programming.

CC should mostly be concerned with protecting WDVE from other rock competitors, similar to what ABC does in Minneapolis with their classic rock monster KQRS. They use their other two FM properties there (active rock and alternative) to flank the mothership. But K-Rock in Pittsburgh doesn't seem to be much competition for them.

CC is starting up FM talkers in markets where they can't effectively put talk on AM. CC owns two AMs in the Twin Cities, but KFAN makes a fortune with sports and KFXN is a weak daytimer. FM was the only option, and 100.3 has had revolving formats for years. They were the weakest link in the cluster. Same with Pittsburgh. They really had no AM option, so they went FM. CC also wants to bring some of their top Premiere product under the CC affiliate umbrella. They snatched Limbaugh from KDKA and in Minneapolis, his longtime affiliate KSTP was looking to drop him and move toward more local programming to take on WCCO. KTLK gave Rush a new Minneapolis clearance. And when KSTP's contract with Hannity expired, they let him go to KTLK.

Damn, last time I was in Pittsburgh, 104.7 was WYDD, playing "Rock of the 80s". Good station.

 

[Radio_Realist]

WDVE vs. KDKA is basically just for bragging rights. I doubt they share the same demos, especially since KDKA seems to have abandoned all sports programming.

WDVE is the station that aging Baby Boomers prefer. Traditionally, as Pittsburghers got older, they tended to switch over to KDKA. This appears to be an example of a company actually planning for the future. By putting the talk format on 104.7, that means that when the Baby Boomers get tired of listening to classic rock on WDVE and turn into cranky old men, they'll move to WPGB and remain under the Clear Channel umbrella.

WDVE managed to become the Baby Boomer's station when the Baby Boomers were 20-somethings, and has hung on to them for three decades. Clear Channel doesn't want to lose them at this point.

 

[fred flintstone]

When the Baby Boomers ... turn into cranky old men

Ah, yes. Cranky old men: The target demo for rightie political talk.

Of course, 50.1% of baby boomers will not turn into cranky old men, even if they skip hormone replacement therapy. They will turn into bitchy old ladies. The target demo for "Dr." Laura, for WOR and for advice talk.
Old men are cranky because old ladies are bitchy.
If old ladies had more orgasms, they'd be nicer and old men would be less cranky - and talk radio would lose most of its audience.

 

[Radio_Realist]

Cranky old men: The target demo for rightie political talk.

That's how the industry works. Divide and conquer. Cranky old men prefer right wing talk radio, mush-brained young men prefer left wing talk radio. So, if you want to sell a product to cranky older men who have money, buy time on a station that airs right wing talk shows. If you want to sell Zig-Zag rolling papers, buy time on a station that airs left wing talk shows.

 

[fred flintstone]

Cranky old men: The target demo for rightie political talk.
That's how the industry works. Divide and conquer. Cranky old men prefer right wing talk radio, mush-brained young men prefer left wing talk radio. So, if you want to sell a product to cranky older men who have money, buy time on a station that airs right wing talk shows. If you want to sell Zig-Zag rolling papers, buy time on a station that airs left wing talk shows.

And just look at the bottom-feeder advertisers that populate political talk radio.
Partly because major advertisers won't touch it.
Mostly because any advertiser working with an ad agency with decent research and media departments won't buy old demos - cranky or not, men or not. Not Oldies, not Standards and not Talk.
So you get direct response or per inquiry ads - like infomercials and brokered shows, only shorter - touting drugs, fly by night insurance, self-improvement products (Verbal Advantage, e-Harmony) and political publications (in case anybody hasn't gotten enough diatribe from the radio).

If radio accepted booze ads, those would end up on rightie talk. Juice freak-dummy-frat rats always liked to drink. Exhibit A is in the White House.[EDIT]

[EDIT=personal attack.]