KGO Changes?

[DavidKaye]

Citadel reports the result of their first quarter as owner of the ABC stations of a 7% drop in revenue. Several markets are mentioned, among them San Francisco.

I'm wondering if this means Cit will have a more hands-on approach to KGO (and thus screw it all up), or whether they'll decide to sell the station to Mickey Luckoff, Jack Swanson, et al.

While I disagree with KGO's insistence on blowing off the under-50 crowd, still I can't fault them for an otherwise excellent presentation, stable of talent, and listenability. I surely hope Citadel doesn't kill their golden goose.

 

[MikeAmatori]

Well, I read Inside Radio on 11/12. I did not see SF mentioned. They were reporting on Farid Suleman and his comments about ABC. Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas were 3 of the 4 that were mentioned, but not SF. Trust me, the problem is not in SF. It is their Golden Goose ! But revenue is down all over. Not just at Citadel, and not just at ABC.

The ABC Stations cannot be sold for at least 2 more years. That was part of the Disney/Citadel Deal.
Big Tax hit for both companies if they sell before then. It was a very complicated deal.

KGO is #3 25-54 in the last book. "Insistance on Blowing off the under 50 crowd?" No one is doing that David. But,thanks for not faulting the presentation, stable of talent and listenability. It's worked very well for the last 29 years. I'm sure that's what Farid thinks too.

The ABC Stations are held in a seperate group/division of the company. The Citadel stations (Pre ABC) are in a seperate group too. As is the ABC radio Network.

 

[coppersmom]

from what I understand the mighty KGO was the only citadel buy in the ABC bunch that is holding its own....thanks to Mickey, Jack, et. al.and the unique nature of the Bay Area.

 

[DavidKaye]

Well, I read Inside Radio on 11/12. I did not see SF mentioned. They were reporting on Farid Suleman and his comments about ABC. Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas were 3 of the 4 that were mentioned, but not SF. Trust me, the problem is not in SF. It is their Golden Goose ! But revenue is down all over. Not just at Citadel, and not just at ABC.

I got this from the Citadel conference call on November 9: According to Robert Freedline, CFO, "Revenues decreased by $9 million, or 3.6% as a result of a $10.2 million decline in revenue of our Radio Markets, offset in part by an increasing revenue at the Radio Network of $1.5 million. The decline in net revenues at the Radio Markets was primarily attributable to lower revenues in our Atlanta, Birmingham, Washington D.C., San Francisco, Detroit, Dallas, Providence and Tucson radio stations."

Sorry about that.

KGO is #3 25-54 in the last book. "Insistance on Blowing off the under 50 crowd?" No one is doing that David. But,thanks for not faulting the presentation, stable of talent and listenability. It's worked very well for the last 29 years. I'm sure that's what Farid thinks too.

Oh, you're top-notch; always have been. (Would you believe I have kicking around here somewhere a piece of tape with some promos you did back in the KCSM days? Someday I'll find the damned thing.)

But I contend that there is a lot being done to make KGO unappealing to anyone under 50. For instance, the events promoted by KGO tend to the senior crowd -- the endless wine tastings and Sausalito art shows, Taj Mahal at Yoshi's, the Andrea Bocelli concert, etc. And it seems that the only promotion KGO runs that appeals to the under-50 crowd has just been cancelled: the Bay to Breakers race.

And the advertisers are almost all for the 50+ crowd -- what, 5 mattress companies, window, plumbing, carpet, and other home remodeling companies. I was talking the other day with an account exec from Fisher Investments (the "high net worth" people). She said that KGO was remarkably good at bringing in accounts in the 60+ age group. That's great for her company because this is their target demo.

I happen to socialize largely with people in the 25-45 age group, and really, there's nothing there in the promo or ad departments that appeals to that crowd. I hear little crossover in advertisers between KLLC and KGO, for instance.

Understand that I have nothing against people in the 50+ age range -- we should all get there some day. But, the longterm survival of KGO depends on reaching younger population groups as well. That's all I'm saying.

Oh, and I'm saying one more thing: Aside from the occasional listen, I find little of interest on KGO these days. I don't want to listen to Iraq-talk, wine or restaurant talk, World War II and Eisenhower, or even Richard Nixon for that matter, or the endless rehashing of "issues of the day" by callers who aren't expert in anything but calling in every three days and spouting vacuous comments.

I do listen from time to time, yes, because radio is in my blood and probably always will be.

 

[oaktree]

I am, to say the least, stunned by David's response. It seems a bit subjective to me and not objective, in that Mike's quote of KGO being #3 25-54 didn't quite sit well with David.

As one who listens to KGO a lot, as well as other talk radio stations, (as well as one involved for the last few years in the genre,) some questions and observations:

First, who thinks that talk radio in the 25-54 demo is growing, anyway? Especially at the rate it did, say, 10-15 years ago when there was a "newness" to the Limbaugh, Hannity, Liddy, Savage, Art Bell "legacy" of hard-hitting right wing radio. My feeling is that there is a decided "flatness," if not decline to the "national talkers" over the last two or three years, if not erosion that is getting faster quarter-to-quarter. The content is not sharp, is very repetitious and, now, apologetic in tone with excuses for the right side in response to the left, liberal side. I'm hearing more right-wing "whining" now than ever.

As for "liberal talk," Air America then and now in its latest reincarnation has proven to be far less than stellar in the performance arena.

With the glut of talk radio on so many frequencies ... all readily heard on more than location on most "local" radio dials today, sometimes within 20-30 miles ... how long is this "trend" going to continue. I find audiences feeling that national talk is stagnating.

I don't see Limbaugh, Hannity, Levin, Savage, Ingraham, Schlesinger, Noorey, Elder, O'Reilly, Colmes, Larson, Bohannon, King, Humphries, Edell, Reynolds, Browne or the second and third tier personalities growing audience ... but merely shifting from show-to-show.

Back to KGO. First, the station, unlike its sister station, KSFO, is live, local and diverse. Yes, KGO has its conservative/moderate bent with the legendary Ronn Owens, who owns the talk market in the Bay Area, no matter the demo ... and I know strongly in the 25-54 year old demo ... not much higher than 30-35 on average, but certainly lower than the older 50 demo.

Then there's attorney Len Tillum, fun for awhile, but not in a great place for his "I am a lawya" talk. He is best on the weekends. 45 minutes is an injustice to him ... and the audience is decidedly older.

Dr. Dean Edell. Now you're hitting the 50+ demo. To old for the station, but a legendary voice in the Bay Area. I don't find him appealing, but it's the "legacy" factor. I do think Mr. Swanson could re-tool the noon to two segment.

No one can replace the late Pete Wilson. Pete was no Ronn Owens, but did well in the 35+ demo and probably better on the 45+ demo. His replacement, Gil Gross, is a decent effort by KGO to represent hip, cool and yet, still refined and defined talk for the 35+ audience ... right in the lower middle of the 25-54 year sweet spot. Not a bad move. Entertaining and informative.

The 4 to 7 p.m. news block is bland on KGO. Talk is king on Newstalk/810 and in my opinion, the demo strength is lost as the audience age goes up with this block. But, the best traffic coverage in the area and that booming signal, makes news an important priority for all prime demos, in my opinion. Maybe just not as long in the TSL figures as it could be ... except in the 50+ demo. The afternoon news isn't hip. It's flows like a glacier, in my opinion. It's there to fill in the spots between weather and traffic. I am one who still tolerates Lloyd Lindsey Young's weather casts, remembering him from his New York days on WWOR before moving west.

Gene Burns is a Libertarian. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, I think Gene Burns is the best talk show host on KGO. Perfect for nights and probably a 45+ audience ... but active and interesting to listen to most all the time. But who's listening to radio at night in talk radio at those "prime time" hours?

Bernie Ward. Noted "lion of the left." Liberal who does quite well and I bet does quite well with the "surviving" 30+ audience that recycles from Burns to Bernie ... but the demo goes up from there...way up.

Ray Talifiero. Hard to be objective here for me. I can't stand the show, or the man's ultra-left stance, presentation or take on events. His audience tips the scales, I'd imagine, to 65+ or, at least, most anyone over 50 at best all-night.

The KGO morning news - again, "must hear radio" in the morning, though Ed Baxter has probably outlived his many year stay by now. But the cast moves, is frequently humorous and the traffic and weather can't be beat. Again, demos from 25 up, if not a majority in the 35 plus category ... the low mid side of the 25-54 demo.

John Rothman should be on full time ... but where? I'd opt for 4-7. I think he'd be great there ... but he probably would skew older because of his all-night weekend audience. But then again, maybe not. I think he'd do well with a 30+ demo on KGO.

The imaging of the station with promos is first rate. I just can't spend $80 for a CD of the many promos run, but they're great. Production, too. But the imaging of Lonnie Perkins is first class and first rate. Strong, articulate and passionate.

Jingles are horrible. Especially the solo acapellas. Logo wise, they're ok ... but the sound is grating sameness. Too much brass, not enough vocal mix and, well, not very "hip." (But they try to be.)

I think KGO is stuck in the middle ... the low middle sweet spot of the 25-54s, but as is the case with long-time talk stations (especially number one KGO after 29 years of being number one all the time,) it would not be hard to see the audience getting older and older each month.

Wonder what KGO would do on FM... I bet it could fly and with decent demos...because KGO is the voice of San Francisco. But it's audience is getting older where it is. And that signal ... you can't beat it. Leave KGO where it is. It still has a future ... but it looks like it will be an older future year by year from now on.

 

[airpab]

Is it me or does Ronn Owens come across as kind of self-important, smug and condescending? And his cutesy little quips... are they really that cutesy? At least he thinks so. He's got to be one of the most over-rated radio personalities on the planet? Right place at the right time long ago and timing is everything, especially in radio.

As for KGO overall, they've got a monster signal and that always helps in the ratings, especially on the AM side. And they've got some interesting personalities and a very decent (albeit heavily produced) overall presentation, although way too many commercials.

If KSFO had a better line-up, better dial position and a half-way decent signal, they'd pose some competition to KGO. But KGO sits in a pretty enviable spot in SF radio and they have taken full advantage of that.....gotta give at least that to them!

 

[oaktree]

I think they earned it ... and taking a look at what's happened in other markets, longevity isn't the hallmark of success. Ronn Owens may not be everyone's cup of tea, but he's huge after all this time. I don't think it was merely handed to him in a competitive market like SF.

 

[LKellerIII]

"First, who thinks that talk radio in the 25-54 demo is growing, anyway? Especially at the rate it did, say, 10-15 years ago when there was a "newness" to the Limbaugh, Hannity, Liddy, Savage, Art Bell "legacy" of hard-hitting right wing radio. My feeling is that there is a decided "flatness," if not decline to the "national talkers" over the last two or three years, if not erosion that is getting faster quarter-to-quarter. The content is not sharp, is very repetitious and, now, apologetic in tone with excuses for the right side in response to the left, liberal side. I'm hearing more right-wing "whining" now than ever."

I agree. Though there have always been conservative talk radio hosts, and a few of the "stars" like Limbaugh became big as far back as the 80s, I think right-wing talk really hit its stride during the Clinton presidency. Old Bubba was the fuel that stoked their fires, and he was generally subject number 1. It seemed like there was no Clinton subject too trivial for them to be outraged about.

I remember Jim Eason taking most of an hour to discuss Clinton's hair color. It was Eason's contention that Bill changed his hair color from brown to gray and back again frequently - and this, of course, showed a lack of moral character. At the time, Clinton was just starting to turn gray, and Eason never considered the possiblity that his Bill's hair might look different depending on the lighting.

After 8 years of conservative Republican rule in the White House and Congress, the tide has turned and the right wing hosts are either on the defensive (yes - often whining). They also must be pretty disillusioned with the level of corruption that existed in the Republican Congress.

I'd bet that right-wing talk ratings will improve considerably if Hillary is elected President...or any Democrat for that matter.

 

[Gale Tulare]

Yes indeed, thanks David for not having anything against us 50+ folks! I would imagine that KGO does many things very well, not the least of which is its ability to sell to its available audience. And as Production Boy mentioned they've been doing it for a long time.
Statistically, the under 50 crowd is spending less and less time with radio. There are simply too many alternatives. The only place it's growing is 50+. That's where KGO lives.
Somebody on one blog or another quotes Wayne Gretzky:

"I skate where the puck will be, not where it has been."

 

[DavidKaye]

I am, to say the least, stunned by David's response. It seems a bit subjective to me and not objective, in that Mike's quote of KGO being #3 25-54 didn't quite sit well with David.

I think that if KGO is really #3 in 25 to 54 then the ad agencies wouldn't be avoiding KGO like the plague. They'd be jumping on them. National accounts usually buy 3 deep in desired demos. This conflicts with what I've heard on the air. KGO doesn't appear to get many national accounts. Maybe Shane Company is national and was shopped by an agency, but the national ads I hear on KGO off-network appear mainly to be network make-goods.

But, for my own listening, there's little on the radio I want to listen to at all. I like Len Tillem, Dean Edell, and Gil Gross. That's about it. That's just 4 hours out of 24. I would like to have that compelling interest in listening more, but most KGO talkshows bore me.

There is what I call a "driveway listen", which is someone who is so compelling that I can't turn off the radio even after I've pulled into the driveway. Len Tillem and Dean Edell are driveway listens for me. That's pretty good. But the rest of the hosts? Not really.

As one who listens to KGO a lot, as well as other talk radio stations, (as well as one involved for the last few years in the genre,) some questions and observations:

How old are you?

As for "liberal talk," Air America then and now in its latest reincarnation has proven to be far less than stellar in the performance arena.

Except in desirable demographics in some cities. The people I know who listen to talkradio who are under age 50 are listening to Air America or NPR.

John Rothman should be on full time ... but where? I'd opt for 4-7. I think he'd be great there ... but he probably would skew older because of his all-night weekend audience. But then again, maybe not. I think he'd do well with a 30+ demo on KGO.

I had hopes for John Rothmann, but he's forever talking about World War II, Dwight Eisenhower, and Richard Nixon. Clue: Richard Nixon left office before 1/3 of America was born. Nobody under 35 remembers Richard Nixon.

Jingles are horrible. Especially the solo acapellas. Logo wise, they're ok ... but the sound is grating sameness. Too much brass, not enough vocal mix and, well, not very "hip." (But they try to be.)

The best jingles KGO ever had were the original ones when they first went to talk. "KGO....one of the good things about San Francisco." It was rich and classy. It also speaks to an era when SF was a center for nightclubs, when in any given night one could go to North Beach and see Barbra Streisand, the Smothers Brothers, and Woody Allen. Even so, the jingles were great.

 

[paulsecic]

Citadel reports the result of their first quarter as owner of the ABC stations of a 7% drop in revenue. Several markets are mentioned, among them San Francisco.

I'm wondering if this means Cit will have a more hands-on approach to KGO (and thus screw it all up), or whether they'll decide to sell the station to Mickey Luckoff, Jack Swanson, et al.

While I disagree with KGO's insistence on blowing off the under-50 crowd, still I can't fault them for an otherwise excellent presentation, stable of talent, and listenability. I surely hope Citadel doesn't kill their golden goose.


I think Mickey Luckoff, Jack Swanson, and James Gabbert should buy KGO.

 

[JimA]

KGO is great! Only thing is to dump those Mormon jingles and get some good ones from Dallas!!

 

[DavidKaye]

I think Mickey Luckoff, Jack Swanson, and James Gabbert should buy KGO.

I undertand Mickey has been trying to do this for more than 10 years. ABC wouldn't budge. This is actually why I brought up the topic. If KGO/KSFO is off as the CFO of Citadel says, let's hope they don't send in somebody to mess with it. Let's hope they either leave it alone or sell it to management.

 

[gameon]

KGO (and for that matter all AM stations) are down financially is because national business for radio is down across the board. The national business that is being booked is overwhelmingly bought on the 18-49 demo, where AM talkers typically drop in rank position due to the preponderance of 50+ audience.

the buyers and planners at these large conglomerate agencies are usually in their 20's and 30's which has never been a desireable demo for AM talk and is even worse now. They don't "get" AM and thus they are easily convinced to not buy it (usually by FM sellers).

The FM music stations go in and sell the fact that even if a station like kgo is showing up in the top 10 18-49, most of the audience is over 45 and thus they are not buying a "balanced" station.

 

[oaktree]

And ... they are right, no?

In addition, there is a staleness to the glut of nationalized talk and because of the amount of talk available, there is a fragmentation of the audience and some who have just burned out on the format. Nor is that upper demo being recycled with the up-and-coming generation of listeners, as AM quickly erodes and the "mainstream" talk (especially the national talkers) is yet to make its mark on FM, especially in the "desirable" demos.

It would appear, too, that owners/operators fear moving "mainstream" talk to FM because it does lose the wide-ranging coverage of a 50kw blowtorch and as long as FM is seen as "the music medium" and the younger, more sellable demos that don't even know what AM is, there is no wonder the buyers shy at being "balanced" with the dominance of 45+ demos on a band that isn't growing, but dies more each and every day.

Buying KGO is 1) buying coverage 2) local personalities with legacy 3) Arbitron dominance for 29 years non-stop 4) localized talk 5) heritage 6) no national syndication 7) habit. Few other stations have those claims ... anywhere. But tomorrow will be here in this lifetime and some serious thinking will have to be done either with buyers "discovering" AM or KGO skewing younger and not the status quo that got them where they have been for 30 years ... at the top. What willl the next generation bring? At that, KGO still does a credible job in most every way.

 

[gameon]

cbs invested a ton in FM talk with FREE FM and it failed so miserably it cost Joel Hollander his job

 

[MikeAmatori]

Gameon and Oaktree...

Thank you for your thoughts. They are on the money. The theory that moving talk to FM is gonna cure the
younger demo problem is very popular. However, if the programing remains the same, why would they go there? Oh I know...Stereo, better audio quality...is that the theory? Or the "They don't know what AM is" explination.

WELL

What about content? The CBS Free-FM experiment proved without content, there is no audience. Thank you gameon. And now there is No Free FM...well I think the KLSX LA survived.

If someone 18-34 0r 25-49 wants to listen to Fergie and not hear about Iraq or taxes, then I guess that
Talk On Any Band is in trouble.

The fact that KGO is Live and Local is what makes them better able to respond instantly to what is happening in the Bay Area. The larger portion of the ABC/Citadel stations are mostly syndicated National
talk. It saves them money on one hand BUT costs them in these ways...They don't own ALL the inventory to sell. The Ratings are not as high which cost them on Rates.

KGO Rates are high because the Ratings are good. Those YOUNG time buyers are also looking for Cost Per Point when they place advertising. And KGO's is high, so they go where they can get the best deal. Many of our competitors will slash rates just to get the business away from us.

I guess the good news is that all those young folks will start to age...Start having kids, start to buy houses, start to worry about taxes, start to be afraid that their kids my have to go to war...and then they will discover the AM band...

 

[LKellerIII]

Production Boy said: "What about content? The CBS Free-FM experiment proved without content, there is no audience. Thank you gameon. And now there is No Free FM...well I think the KLSX LA survived".

Not only Free- FM, but 95.7 KPIX ("the FM Talk Station")in the 90s, and KGO-FM (103.7) in the 80s. Talk on FM has failed in the Bay Area in 3 decades. I have no doubt that if they moved KGO 810 as is to an FM signal, it would remain a ratings winner, but I'm skeptical that it would suddenly pick up a lot of younger listeners.

"If someone 18-34 0r 25-49 wants to listen to Fergie and not hear about Iraq or taxes, then I guess that
Talk On Any Band is in trouble."

God, yes! I don't think "info-tainment" is enough to carry a talk format - you need to discuss important issues in the NEWS - Iraq, the presidential elections, etc. If celebrity and sex-talk is all Gen-Xers and the "millenials" (or whatever they're calling the gen that grew up in the 90s) want to listen to, the talk format will die out in another decade. Did you ever hear Darian O'Toole on Free-FM? Her personal problems aside, listening to her talk about current events was painful and embarrassing. Her sarcastic wit was very funny and entertaining in short segments between songs on K-Big in the 90s, but she didn't have the knowledge or background to make it work on a talk format.

"The fact that KGO is Live and Local is what makes them better able to respond instantly to what is happening in the Bay Area."

Absolutely, and you'd think radio programmers would learn this after the prior failed experiments with syndicated content on FM Talk stations - or low rated AM talk stations, for that matter I guess the money savings are just too great to resist. How many stations in the Bay Area has Tom Leykis gotten crappy ratings on? Four, by my count...but when KYCY tanks, some other station will probably pick up his show.

 

[oaktree]

...and then they will discover the AM band...

<sarcasm monitor on> Yeah, in our dreams. Our getting very lonely dreams. If Arbitron is right in stating, as it has, that Persons-Using-Radio declines in the last 8 years equals a loss of 17% of the radio audience, that 80 percent of radio listening is to FM and the other 20% (with a healthy does from that 80 percent not listening only to radio, but to other means,) is true ... it doesn't take a mental giant to see that AM is dropping off the charts faster than a Fergie hit.

With the even faster introduction of new modes of "entertainment" and media choices, 51% of the radio audience as we know it today will be mostly non-existent in 15 years from now. Of that, you can well bet that as gen Y turns 35-40 in that time frame, they're attention spans that are obviously dwindling today will not become any better and their choices will be more personal and immediate.

And for that which they don't know now (AM Radio) will become, out of that 49% of listeners available ... largely non-existent whatsoever. And for those thinking that it won't affect the small markets ... think again. The proliferation of outside syndication and cost cutting will reduce the radio landscape markedly ... and AM will become a huge vast wasteland.

FM could make it until then ... but it will be so generic and "safe" (such as how AM started its rapid slide inside of five-to-ten years,) that that band will have similar problems by then as well.

The alternatives will be quick to materialize; much faster than they were thirty years ago. Twenty years ago. Ten years ago ... even five years ago.

It's going to be a wild ride in the next decade for radio. 60 year olds will be 70. 50 year olds will be 60. 40 year olds will be among the uncounted and uncared for...and below 40 ... they just won't care, because they will, literally, be held "to their own devices."

Think about how change has affected this industry and how quick that change has established itself to put us in the shape and condition we're in now.

With conditions as they are ... remember, KGO has seen change, too, through that time, and is not immune to more. The loss of the 49ers may have been just one of the early signs of change. There will be more to come.

 

[DavidKaye]

Not only Free- FM, but 95.7 KPIX ("the FM Talk Station")in the 90s, and KGO-FM (103.7) in the 80s. Talk on FM has failed in the Bay Area in 3 decades. I have no doubt that if they moved KGO 810 as is to an FM signal, it would remain a ratings winner, but I'm skeptical that it would suddenly pick up a lot of younger listeners.

The Bay Area suffers from the fact that no single FM can reach the entire market, and since ratings are determined by the market as a whole, moving KGO to FM could suffer. On the other hand, simulcasting could be a big boon.

While it's true that FM talk has failed several times in the Bay Area, looking back on it, it was either poor quality or not giving enough time. KGO-FM is a case in point. At first it was a relay of KABC's top-notch lineup, including Ira Fistell, Ray Briem, Michael Jackson, etc. Then something happened. I don't remember if it was salary issues or KABC simply not wanting to syndicate their stuff after all, but suddenly one day the ABC Talk Radio network was all different. There was an Ira Fistell-type character. There was a guy with a Michael Jackson-like accent. There were these replacement guys. So, just as people were getting to know the crew suddenly they're all jerked and a new lineup shows up. You just can't win with such short-sightedness

Case in point: KGO has had a talk format for 43 years. It has been #1 for 28 years. That means that it took 15 years for KGO to get to #1. No owner today is going to wait 15 years to let a station build that slowly. They want results across 3 quarters, and if it shows growth then they'll think about whether to keep the format or not.