KGO Observations

[DavidKaye]

Given that some KGO folks read this forum I've decided to post some recent observations here:

(1) Though unintentional I'm sure, I like the idea of the rotating guest hosts. Will it be Christine Craft, Brian Copeland, or Angie Coiro? I find this refreshing. This might be something for KGO programming to consider for the future should Bernie not be able to come back to KGO. Does KGO really need a permanent late night host? Do they really need a permanent Saturday cocktail hour host?

(2) Kudos for these folks (big chocolate ones at that): Brian Copeland, Angie Coiro, Christine Craft, James Gabbert. Half a kudo to that KSFO woman whose name I can't remember who subbed once or twice, who was okay but needs a little something.

(3) Brian -- loved the racism topic, especially bringing in personal stories from other black folks who work at KGO. This is a topic that is simply not discussed around these parts.

(4) Angie -- goes without saying: bright, articulate, not too serious, she can handle anything.

(5) Christine -- again I'll say that I've come over to her side. I like her style very much these days. She's probably the best one to hold up the leftish side of things.

(6) Promos -- jeez, do we really have to hear the contest disclaimer all the time? Once a day is enough.

(7) Always in spot breaks. Nearly every time I turn on the radio, KGO is in a spot cluster. Some is due to spots, of course, but part of this is due to excessive clutter. I've gone on before about bumper music adding to clutter, but there appear to be way too many promotions. Other talk stations give you talk when you first tune in. KGO gives me spot clusters. This can't be good for the long run.

(8 I like Ray T's method: He uses no bumper music, few promos, and seldom any KGO jingles, and as a result nearly every time I tune in I'm hearing him or a caller. That's what talkradio should be, I think. Yes, I realize he has a lighter spot load, but even so, with less clutter there is the impression that the show has meat to it.

(9) I'm not saying to get rid of Michael Amatori's comedy bits. I'm saying to get rid of the billboards for shows, promos about how "green" KGO is, etc., and that contest disclaimer.

--dk

 

[ABQTom]

"(1) Though unintentional I'm sure, I like the idea of the rotating guest hosts. Will it be Christine Craft, Brian Copeland, or Angie Coiro?"

Doesn't work. You need to find one person to host at least four out of five nights. Karel is KGO's best candidate given his ratings history and liberalism for that time slot. I've mentioned on the forum what happened at KIRO where Entercom unjustifiably fired Mike Webb. Within months, Mike Malloy was beating the KIRO substitute hosts.

"Does KGO really need a permanent late night host?"

Yes. Eliminating Ray and adding syndicated programming would drop ratings significantly.

"Do they really need a permanent Saturday cocktail hour host?"

You've already said on radio-info you don't like Karel, so why do you keep bringing this up. Karel is among my top 10 or so favorite hosts. Karel has high ratings and a high TSL. Karel + Dr. Bill = great weekend ratings and revenue.

"(7) Always in spot breaks. Nearly every time I turn on the radio, KGO is in a spot cluster. Some is due to spots, of course, but part of this is due to excessive clutter. I've gone on before about bumper music adding to clutter, but there appear to be way too many promotions."

Promotions + Lots of commercials = Ratings, Revenue, and the Ability to Recruit and Hire Great Hosts like Gill Gross! Welcome to AM radio!

 

[coppersmom]

vis a vis ratings history...In Sacramento on a avowedly liberal station...I had better numbers than Ed Schultz and Randi Rhodes. I'm a big RR fan.cheers.cc

 

[DavidKaye]

Doesn't work. You need to find one person to host at least four out of five nights.

That's conventional wisdom. That's the idea that people listen to particular time slots. Radio listening has been going away from that paradigm for decades. Today they listen to a station for its overall format. This is why KOIT sounds nearly the same at 3:00am as they do at 3:00pm.

I'm not convinced that KGO would lose anything by rotating hosts on the 10pm to 1am slot. If anything ratings might jump due to the curiosity factor in the same way that the late night TV shows jumped 15-25% when people tuned in to see whether the hosts would fall on their faces without writers. People are curious within certain limits. Give 'em something to be curious about. And how much in ratings could KGO possibly lose by rotating the guest hosts they have?

Karel is KGO's best candidate given his ratings history and liberalism for that time slot.

Karel has a put-off factor. I'm one of those people. I simply will not listen to the guy any longer. If he's on, the radio either goes off or is changed. I'll listen to Wattenburg before I'll listen to Karel, and in fact I have.

Yes. Eliminating Ray and adding syndicated programming would drop ratings significantly.

I never said a thing about eliminating Ray, though he's not someone I listen to. I said late night, not early morning.

You've already said on radio-info you don't like Karel, so why do you keep bringing this up. Karel is among my top 10 or so favorite hosts. Karel has high ratings and a high TSL. Karel + Dr. Bill = great weekend ratings and revenue.

My comments are not based on whether I like a particular host or not, as yours are. I don't like Ronn Owens much, but you won't read me saying anything about changing his schtick or his time slot, replacing him, or any of that. I do recognize quality even if it doesn't match my tastes.

As for TSL, this may or may not be a good thing depending on the kind of advertiser. TSL has long been considered a bad thing because some advertisers see these listeners as not being very receptive to advertising messages. That is, if someone is stodgy enough to listen for hours on end, perhaps they're also so stodgy that they won't change their buying habits, either. Thus, it's felt that advertising to these listeners will fail.

Promotions + Lots of commercials = Ratings, Revenue, and the Ability to Recruit and Hire Great Hosts like Gill Gross! Welcome to AM radio!

You don't know how to read. I said nothing about reducing the number of commercials. I wrote about reducing clutter. Sure, people will say that a music bumper is only 10 seconds. Well, with 7 spot breaks, that's over a minute wasted.

Likewise promos. To my knowledge there is only one piece of evidence showing that billboarding something will cause listeners to tune in. That was a rock station in the 1970s that billboarded a contest that would happen the following morning at a certain (specific) time. Then the station didn't run the contest at that time. They then gauged the number of complaining phone calls to see if indeed the station was able to change people's listening habits by billboarding a program element in a different daypart.

The problem with this research is this: It was a contest rather than billboarding a DJ. In KGO's case, will a listener really tune into here Gene Burns because he was billboarded on Gil Gross's show? Will people really drop what they're doing to listen to Ray Taliaferro because they hear him billboarded on Gene's show? If it's important to billboard a talkshow host, I think it would be much better if the current host would simply say it during their show. This way it would not be perceived as clutter but as part of the host's program.

 

[ABQTom]

"I'm not convinced that KGO would lose anything by rotating hosts on the 10pm to 1am slot."

You're entitled to your opinion and I hope it works on KGO. However, in Seattle it didn't work on KIRO-AM after Entercom unjustifiably fired Mike Webb. Malloy on Air America 1090 at 50,000 watts was beating the rotating substitute hosts on KIRO at 50,000 watts. Here in Las Vegas, if Karel or Christine Craft isn't on from 10p-1a, then I listen to C2C.

"My comments are not based on whether I like a particular host or not, as yours are."[/i]

No, my comments are based on both. First, I like listening to Karel. Second, and more importantly, Karel has good ratings and TSL. If I was the KGO PD, for 10p-1a, I would put Karel on 3-4 nights a week, and Christine Craft the other 1-2 nights.

"In KGO's case, will a listener really tune into here Gene Burns because he was billboarded on Gil Gross's show?"

Promoting other hosts ads to the total station imaging and listeners do indeed - perhaps subconsciously - take note.

 

[annagranfors]

I'm with DavidKaye on Christine and Karel...Christine's altogether marvellous, especially when challenged--her law training shines, then, as she dismantles the hapless idiot point by point.

and even though I used to quite enjoy Karel back when he and his husband had a show here in LA, I *really* dislike him solo. regardless of politics, it's just not a likable radio personality.

it's sad that KGO seems to be leaning centrist, losing both Bernie (who I really hope can beat this probable trumped-up charge) and not putting Christine on full-time. I haven't listened since she was last on, and don't expect to. (and I'm sorry...even though I like Taliaferro's politics, his constant "no question about it!" schtick and self-aggrandizement puts me off.)

wish Peter B's station would put CC and Bernie back on the air, full-time...

 

[ABQTom]

"wish Peter B's station would put CC and Bernie back on the air, full-time..."

Peter B. Collins is part owner of 540 KRXA Monterey/Salinas/Santa Cruz. Peter B. is syndicated 3P-6P Pacific. http://peterbcollins.com

Green 960 in the Bay Area is owned by Clear Channel and carries programming from Air America, Jones, and other sources including local shows. 960 podcasts Peter B.

 

[fandango]

I'm with DavidKaye on Christine and Karel...Christine's altogether marvellous, especially when challenged--her law training shines, then, as she dismantles the hapless idiot point by point.

and even though I used to quite enjoy Karel back when he and his husband had a show here in LA, I *really* dislike him solo. regardless of politics, it's just not a likable radio personality.

it's sad that KGO seems to be leaning centrist, losing both Bernie (who I really hope can beat this probable trumped-up charge) and not putting Christine on full-time. I haven't listened since she was last on, and don't expect to. (and I'm sorry...even though I like Taliaferro's politics, his constant "no question about it!" schtick and self-aggrandizement puts me off.)

wish Peter B's station would put CC and Bernie back on the air, full-time...

I agree with all this... I can take people like Karel in small doses, but not for a whole program and not night after night. I love seeing KGO go against conventional broadcasting assumptions and proceed to kill the big broadcasting conglomerates that are killing the rest of us.

The biggest lesson I learn from KGO every night, is that real news really is more entertaining than phoney, made-up news... but you have to have an intelligent, experienced, likeable person running the show or you'll die.

With high standards, KGO doesn't have many acceptable personnel choices -- which is why I keep asking what KGO is going to do. They really need to find the gumption to 1) bring Bernie back, or 2) replace Bernie with a liberal talker as knowledgeable as Bernie is (almost impossible), and 3) try out some new substitutes, since two or three of their substitute voices simply aren't knowledgeable enough on current events and politics to not get spotted for the blowhards they are, after about 45 minutes.

It's tough. Before; Bernie used to anchor six or eight hours of on and off listening for me. Today; I usually can't stand the host I hear in his slot and I tune away. I barely listen to KGO these days, and I want an excuse to go back.

f

 

[DavidKaye]

With high standards, KGO doesn't have many acceptable personnel choices -- which is why I keep asking what KGO is going to do. They really need to find the gumption to 1) bring Bernie back, or 2) replace Bernie with a liberal talker as knowledgeable as Bernie is (almost impossible), and 3) try out some new substitutes, [....]

KGO's second-string is actually first-string, so I don't think they have any need to worry. Sure, some of them are unavailable at times due to other commitments. That's good. It shows that they're doing something else with their lives that gives them even more in their arsenals as talkshow hosts.

Let's see....Jim Gabbert, Angie Coiro, Christine Craft, Brian Copeland, Ravi Peruman, John Rothmann -- they're all first-rate. It's probably the best line-up of subs KGO has ever had. KGO could probably go further in asking people like John Hamilton and Len Tillem to do general fill-in talkshows. Leo Laporte could also do a general talkshow I'm sure.

 

[DeadAudicy]

I know this is a comments board, and comments are, more often than not, opinions...but jeez o pete, the most important aspect of intelligent conversation, debate, problem solving, and constructive pontification is objectivity, of which this board sorely lacks.

It is fine to preface comments with "in my opinion..." "I think that..." "I can't stand..." "I don't see why..." etc, if the intent is to simply offer a personal viewpoint. But to imply, so myopically, a programming solution without having decades of experience in the market applying well studied, researched, and considered marketing concepts to your scenario, as programmers and management do daily...well it seems not terribly useful.

Also, it seems as if some of us are simply making things up and applying them as fact on the board. It really does.

Here's a suggestion: If you have a radio idea based on a fleeting bolt of mind lightning, and it differs from that which would occur to an experienced, well versed, hard working, focused-on-craft major market programming/management combo...think twice, do a few years of market analysis, some solid demographic and market psychology research, then get back to us with that epiphany. Bring plenty of substantiation.
I know that might be the "conventional wisdom" (and lord knows the thin ice on which that skates), but how wackily suitable your discourse will feel.

 

[DavidKaye]

But to imply, so myopically, a programming solution without having decades of experience in the market applying well studied, researched, and considered marketing concepts to your scenario, as programmers and management do daily...well it seems not terribly useful.

It is possible that seasoned professionals are too close to a situation to see it clearly. It's like the billboard painter who sees only lines, not the image on the billboard.

Microsoft is a case in point. When they released Windows 95 it did not have Internet capability. None of the geniuses at Microsoft -- or at Apple for that matter -- foresaw the Internet becoming big, thus they didn't put it into their OS's. However, I did see it coming and when I was learning Unix in 1992 I told the staffers in the downstairs tech section at Stacey's bookstore, "You're not going to believe this but you're going to hearing about the Internet so much you'll devote entire sections to books on the subject."

Want another example? Who at NBC foresaw that Saturday late nights would become a profitable daypart? Lorne Michaels was given the time slot for Saturday Night Live because Johnny Carson wanted additional money in his contract renewal because of the "Best of Carson" reruns they were then doing. NBC figured it wouldn't last more than a season and by then they'd maybe have another solution for Saturday late nights.

Another example? The record companies wouldn't sell their product online. They felt that they'd either sell CDs or nothing. It took Steve Jobs, an outsider, to license music and sell it online.

So, I wouldn't be so quick to discount suggestions. Some of them may work.

My own purpose in posting here is to try to influence KGO to make a few changes, the most glaring being the huge spot clusters that make the odds of tuning in and hearing a spot cluster very high. Management is so close to the operation that they probably can't hear what listeners are hearing. KGO is cluttered!

 

[DeadAudicy]

As compelling as they are, DK, your examples are random. Compare them with all the successes over the course of the same decades that resulted from experienced product saavy, and you're hitting about one to a thousand.

I did not say that suggestions were bad, nor was my point that experience trumps imagination. But the crux is that so many in this and other discussions seem to think that one's own taste is universal, with no further thought to substantiation. If you were learning unix in 92, you were gaining experience through research, instruction, and otherwise immersed in the subject. You were probably amassing huge personal-connectivity insight while browsing BBSs. There was substance to your ideas. That's what I'm preaching. Are you similarly acquainted with trafficking logs and massaging them for an optimum revenue-listenability dynamic? Are you familiar with the track-record benefit of bumper music, how and why it is useful, how not to use it and why? Can you name at least 10 tools a programmer might use to keep listeners receptive to spot breaks, motivated to bear a barrage of commercials, or at least come back when the break is over? Do you know what, in a production element, allows the amalgam listener greatest access to the message...at least as much as you could guess the logical extrapolation of web interaction in '92?

To address your billboard painter...in any successful organization there are many checks and balances to assure each tree in a forest is well viewed. By any account, KGO shows an enduring success. Record labels not so much. If the genuises on this board can show brain oil abundance analogous to Job's resume pre-iTunes, then by all means let the walls fall.

 

[DavidKaye]

Are you similarly acquainted with trafficking logs and massaging them for an optimum revenue-listenability dynamic? Are you familiar with the track-record benefit of bumper music, how and why it is useful, how not to use it and why? Can you name at least 10 tools a programmer might use to keep listeners receptive to spot breaks, motivated to bear a barrage of commercials, or at least come back when the break is over? Do you know what, in a production element, allows the amalgam listener greatest access to the message...at least as much as you could guess the logical extrapolation of web interaction in '92?

Well, let's see what I do know. I believe it was the RAB that came out with a study that showed that spot clusters up to 6 minutes long did not significantly reduce listenership. I seem to remember it being less than a 10% drop-off. That was a surprise to many, I'm sure. HOWEVER, this was based on an average load of about 9 commercial minutes per hour, not the 17 or so that KGO has. Thus, the study would probably not apply to KGO with a spot load nearly double the average.

So, if there is little drop-off in clusters on stations running 9 minutes per hour, doesn't it behoove KGO to limit its non-program content to drop it as low as possible toward that 9 minutes? Since obviously they can't limit the number of spots, why not limit the *rest* of the clutter?

KGO has a high TSL, and thus there is really little need to keep people listening with positioners, bumpers, and whatnot. All it seems to do is frighten the horses. What works for music stations doesn't necessarily work for talk stations.

I knew there was something disagreeable about KGO before a few months ago when I was listening with a friend who said, "They have a lot of commercials, don't they?" I said that it was probably fairly average. Then I began to listen more closely and damn, it sounds like a lot of commercials. And now I've noticed (more closely anyway) that almost any time I tune in between, say 7am and 10pm it seems that I always catch KGO in the middle of a spot cluster. Now that I realize what it was that was annoying me, I'm tending to turn on KQED or KALW if I hit spots on KGO.

Terrestrial radio stations have serious issues to contend with. Looking at a spreadsheet from Arbitron I notice that radio listen has dropped 38% among women 25-34, 34% for persons 25-34 from 1998 through summer 2007. Even the most loyal listeners of all, persons 65+ there is still a 10% drop there as well.

I contend that one of the factors driving people away is clutter. Why do I say this? Because when I talk with people about their radio listening, I find that they've abandoned it because there are "too many commercials" and there's "too much hype". Now, I admit that I don't talk with many people age 65+, and my conversations are mainly with people in their 20s and 30s, but I don't think my observations are skewed.

 

[mred]

Crafty had better ratings on kfbk in Sac than Bernie Lard. The Lard of the Left is washed-up, where are they going to find an orange jump suit that BIG?

 

[fandango]

Are you similarly acquainted with trafficking logs and massaging them for an optimum revenue-listenability dynamic? Are you familiar with the track-record benefit of bumper music, how and why it is useful, how not to use it and why? Can you name at least 10 tools a programmer might use to keep listeners receptive to spot breaks, motivated to bear a barrage of commercials, or at least come back when the break is over? Do you know what, in a production element, allows the amalgam listener greatest access to the message...at least as much as you could guess the logical extrapolation of web interaction in '92?

Well, let's see what I do know. I believe it was the RAB that came out with a study that showed that spot clusters up to 6 minutes long did not significantly reduce listenership. I seem to remember it being less than a 10% drop-off. That was a surprise to many, I'm sure. HOWEVER, this was based on an average load of about 9 commercial minutes per hour, not the 17 or so that KGO has. Thus, the study would probably not apply to KGO with a spot load nearly double the average.

So, if there is little drop-off in clusters on stations running 9 minutes per hour, doesn't it behoove KGO to limit its non-program content to drop it as low as possible toward that 9 minutes? Since obviously they can't limit the number of spots, why not limit the *rest* of the clutter?

KGO has a high TSL, and thus there is really little need to keep people listening with positioners, bumpers, and whatnot. All it seems to do is frighten the horses. What works for music stations doesn't necessarily work for talk stations.

I knew there was something disagreeable about KGO before a few months ago when I was listening with a friend who said, "They have a lot of commercials, don't they?" I said that it was probably fairly average. Then I began to listen more closely and damn, it sounds like a lot of commercials. And now I've noticed (more closely anyway) that almost any time I tune in between, say 7am and 10pm it seems that I always catch KGO in the middle of a spot cluster. Now that I realize what it was that was annoying me, I'm tending to turn on KQED or KALW if I hit spots on KGO.

Terrestrial radio stations have serious issues to contend with. Looking at a spreadsheet from Arbitron I notice that radio listen has dropped 38% among women 25-34, 34% for persons 25-34 from 1998 through summer 2007. Even the most loyal listeners of all, persons 65+ there is still a 10% drop there as well.

I contend that one of the factors driving people away is clutter. Why do I say this? Because when I talk with people about their radio listening, I find that they've abandoned it because there are "too many commercials" and there's "too much hype". Now, I admit that I don't talk with many people age 65+, and my conversations are mainly with people in their 20s and 30s, but I don't think my observations are skewed.

I don't think there is any reason to wonder about how many ads and spots a station can sell per hour before they start suffering in the arbitron department. I'm sure that some Marketing genius has looked at the number of spots that stations can sell, and knows exactly how many listeners a stations are likely to lose when they go from, say, eighteen minutes/hour to say, 23 minutes/hour. KGO has obviously crossed over the line a little and is likely paying a small price.

As a potential local advertiser, I sure don't want my very expensive radio spots buried in seven minute blocks, and sandwiched between a fly-by-night loan company (Royal Bancorp, anyone?) and magic erection powder/give us your old car ads. Any local advertiser with any sense at all wouldn't stand for it.

I've noticed that my own personal advertising/listening limit is about eighteen minutes/hour. As a correlary, I'll switch in the middle of anything I hear if it even starts to annoy me. Don't start your ads or station announcements with bells, horns, phone rings, explosions or loud crying children, and don't talk down to me or lie to me. Elementry I'm sure, but KGO (and ClearChannel, and Enticom, and Bonniville) seem to need a pointed reminder.

fan

 

[DeadAudicy]

Well, let's see what I do know. I believe it was the RAB that came out with a study that showed that spot clusters up to 6 minutes long did not significantly reduce listenership. I seem to remember it being less than a 10% drop-off. That was a surprise to many, I'm sure. HOWEVER, this was based on an average load of about 9 commercial minutes per hour, not the 17 or so that KGO has. Thus, the study would probably not apply to KGO with a spot load nearly double the average.

The RAB report is appreciated, but...

So, DK, your answer is "no", you are not acquainted with even the most fundamental programming strategies I listed...?

Fandango, anything in your universe that can more expertly address your points other than your personal limits? Say, maybe a nosedive in KGO's ratings? Got one of those handy to show us? Maybe a brief communication with any of the advertisers who've gone beyond "potentially" advertising, to get their take on success or failure with the station?

Anyone?
mmm?

Just wondering...so that we can read your comments from a more useable perspective than your own personal sudden insights.

 

[sloux]

I know this is a comments board, and comments are, more often than not, opinions...but jeez o pete, the most important aspect of intelligent conversation, debate, problem solving, and constructive pontification is objectivity, of which this board sorely lacks.

Here's a suggestion: If you have a radio idea based on a fleeting bolt of mind lightning, and it differs from that which would occur to an experienced, well versed, hard working, focused-on-craft major market programming/management combo...think twice, do a few years of market analysis, some solid demographic and market psychology research, then get back to us with that epiphany. Bring plenty of substantiation.

I find your comments no more objective than the comments of others on this thread. If we subscribe to the eliteism that only those whom hold themselves in the highest regard within this industry should participate, these boards will become indeed very quiet, punctuated only by a few pompous individuals taking shots at each other.

I wonder if its possible to convince the reader without invoking one's ego. Don't ooze with disdain while telling us about your credentials as a means of persuasion; reason with us.

 

[DavidKaye]

So, DK, your answer is "no", you are not acquainted with even the most fundamental programming strategies I listed...?

Actually I am, but they're not germane to the discussion. I spent 10 years in broadcasting where I began in engineering and production and moved to talent. I was also a music director, talkshow host, and I sold time. I've done back office work in traffic as well. I think I do have the fundamentals down as to the whys and wherefores of traffic management.

I have read extensively on the topics of promotion and program direction, since at one point I wanted to be a PD. I've always been fascinated by such aspects as counter-programming, marketing focus, and station cluster packaging.

In fact, I have used many radio/TV marketing techniques in the non-broadcasting businesses I have owned or run over the years, which have included a telephone call center, a restauant/club, a moving company, and currently a PC tech support business. All have been focused to specific clientele based on techniques I learned in radio promotion.

 

[mred]

FAT Talk format

Since the "Biggest Loser" and other TV shows seem to be doing well I thinf a "FAT Talk" radio format would be successful as a syndicated format.

 

[DeadAudicy]

I find your comments no more objective than the comments of others on this thread. If we subscribe to the eliteism that only those whom hold themselves in the highest regard within this industry should participate, these boards will become indeed very quiet, punctuated only by a few pompous individuals taking shots at each other.

I wonder if its possible to convince the reader without invoking one's ego. Don't ooze with disdain while telling us about your credentials as a means of persuasion; reason with us.

Then in the interest of reason...

I agree. It does weaken the discussion when only those who hold themselves in the described regard are participating. Such a scenario would never be suggested by me or anyone else thus far in this discussion. Odd you would devine such a scheme, given the quote you highlight, and its further context.

But is it your view that a unsubstantiated novice has a stronger position than a successful expert on a given subject, as had been the suggestion I was debating?

Yes it is possible, and strengthens one's position, to convince or otherwise contribute without invoking one's ego. Calling BS where it lies is not egocentric. You might elaborate on where the ego is coming through.

My credentials were never invoked in this discussion, nor anywhere on the boards except where called for, and you'd have to dig deep for even that. For all you know I'm a janitor in Gilroy. My references are to those who come from a stronger position as regards managing the listener experience successfully, not to myself.

I will endeavor to adjust the disdain spigot to "seepage", but should it open to "ooze" at any point, try not to take it personally.

I suppose it is subjective whether you see subjectivity but I objectively object.