KHJ vs WABC

[jimbo]

If they had competed, who would have won?

I would have gone with KHJ. I much prefer the Drake more music approach. Comparing the airchecks of KHJ and WABC on the ReelRadio website, WABC sounds very cluttered with so many spots and lots of DJ rambling. Granted, Hall of Fame DJ's but for my ears, shut up and play the hits works for me. The KHJ jocks were clever and witty and did it 10 seconds.

 

[michael hagerty]

Jim:
If they had competed where? In L.A. or New York?

In L.A., it would have been KHJ. People who engage in the WABC vs. KHJ debate tend to forget that L.A did have big personality Top 40 at KFWB beginning in 1958...two years before WABC flipped format. Time tones, tons of clutter, grown-up jocks with boatloads of talk time...that was KFWB. A more streamlined KRLA succeeded against KFWB by '63 or so, and KHJ finished the job beginning in '65. The audience had spoken.

In New York? Probably WABC. It turned back every challenge, including a very streamlined WMCA in the late 60s, RKO's own WOR-FM and 99X, WNBC, and never really lost its mojo until the late 70s, when disco hit. It might have been different if you'd put a Boss Radio format on a big AM signal, but most likely, WABC would have won. RKO never thought it worth the risk to blow up WOR-AM. If they'd thought they could win, they might have.

Two very different markets. In 1965, New York teens were still calling Cousin Brucie from the pay phone at Carvel requesting Lesley Gore records. In Los Angeles, they were experimenting with grass and asking for cuts from the new Byrds LP.

---Michael Hagerty

 

[briancraig]

I really believe had Bill Drake been able to put his format on a big New York AM like 660 in 1965, he would have beat WABC. Remember Drake's format didn't only work on the West Coast, but he had success at WRKO in Boston plus Tulsa and Memphis.

 

[michael hagerty]

I really believe had Bill Drake been able to put his format on a big New York AM like 660 in 1965, he would have beat WABC. Remember Drake's format didn't only work on the West Coast, but he had success at WRKO in Boston plus Tulsa and Memphis.

True, but neither Boston, Tulsa or Memphis had an established giant like WABC was in 1965.

---Michael Hagerty

 

[briancraig]

In Boston, WMEX was established but did have a horrible signal. Wasn't WBZ (50KW) kind of top 40 still when WRKO switched?

In Memphis, Plough's WMPS was big competition to Drake and actually won the ratings battle about half the time.

Even though it is in California, could any two cities in the same state be more different than L.A. and San Francsico? Yet KFRC handily beat established KYA.

I guess my point is that Drake would have likely come up with a New York version of boss radio that reflected the market and wouldn't have just cloned KHJ. Again, KFRC never used the word Boss and had a very different music mix than KHJ that reflected the Bay Area.

I just think the Drake formatics on an equal signal would have beat WABC with 90 minute newscasts and the Breakfast Club at 10 am every morning. I think WABC's only hope would have been if John Rook had taken over. I don't think Drake could have beat Rook era WLS (67-71) in Chicago.

 

[davideduardo]

I really believe had Bill Drake been able to put his format on a big New York AM like 660 in 1965, he would have beat WABC. Remember Drake's format didn't only work on the West Coast, but he had success at WRKO in Boston plus Tulsa and Memphis.

And, more than all those... CKLW.

 

[radiobop]

Let's get real...there's a difference between the coasts...KHJ, WLS, and WABC played the same music, catered basically to the same audience, and they were all highly successful even though they each had their unique sound and personality...the elements involved were somewhat similar but the common reason for their collective success boils down to the principal components missing from today's radio: PERSONALITY linked to the LOCAL market, coupled with attention to details, format competition, a real desire to entertain the audience and derive fun doing it (how many young wanna be DJs aspired to work for a major market Top 40 and would probably have done so [or did] for cheap?)..

In preparation for the launch of our new all-60s internet station, Radio Bop 60s, I have just made my first pass through an amazing book: KHJ: Inside Boss Radio by PD Ron Jacobs. The book is full of his memos to the Boss Jocks chastising them to be more personable on the air, not ignore the BossLine during newscasts, keep thinking up new things to say and avoid becoming stale, keep up the on-air excitement, etc. EVEN WHEN THE STATION WAS #1. The details of many of the station's promotions is included...a new promotion, contest, concert whatever was slotted in every two weeks. No cookie-cutter evil empire formats in every market...no sir, LOCAL tied to the unique lifestyle of each market was the secret.

The format of Radio Bop 60s will reflect significant influence from the 1965 at-launch sound of KHJ down to the Drake acapellas (being recorded this week in Dallas), sounders and promos...this book has proven invaluable to me in the course of this project and I would highly recommend it to any radio programmer today looking for reeducation in the medium...and thank you, Ron Jacobs, for sharing your valuable insights!

 

[snoman]

Unlike now, where you have cookie cutter formats. You had stations that appealed to the markets they served, as well as personalities that knew about those markets. KHJ's Legendary Morning Man (or should I say 'Morgan'? ) Robert W. Morgan, tried to go to WIND in Chicago in the early 70's. He realized he missed Los Angeles and the people missed him. KHJ was tailor-made to LA. WABC was tailor made to NY. Could they have worked in each other's respective markets? Maybe, but who's to say? They were both two of the greatest radio stations that were ever created. What I never understood, and I am not all that familiar with the LA market, is that people who worked in radio in the 60's and 70's said that KRLA was THE station to work at. That is hard to believe when you hear airchecks of KHJ, and think of the personalities that donned the mic there. I realize people like Casey Kasem, Dick Whittington, amongst others worked there, but I just find it hard to believe that they had a better sound and presentation than KHJ.

 

[jimbo]

I started this thread after another episode of the "Cuz" on Sirius 60s Vibrations. My goodness Mr Morrow can ramble and ramble, now shut up and play the hits. So I spent some time sampling the WABC airchecks on the ReelRadio web site and kept thinking KHJ would be my pick hands down. Both stations had Hall of Fame jocks but at KHJ they were witty and clever inside of 15 seconds.

I ditto the comments about Inside Boss Radio. (autographed by Ron hisself). It's a radio junkie's feast. On page 204 Ron instructs them to play the long version of Light My Fire if they have time. Also, the June (1967) Hooper begins tomorrow so "Play monsters, not mediocre or unfamiliar songs, during the :15 sweep. We should have a MONSTER on during KR's news."

He reminds everyone again that the "June Hooper begins tomorrow.... and it depends on:" "Considering who is listening! Hippies, Flower Children and Teeny-boppers make up about 5% of the general audience" "Watching the music balance!" "Keeping a HIT on :15!"

Later in the book is a memo with directions to specific jocks: Tuna - beware of sounding too polished with everything worked out so smooth that you lose a human sound of warmth.

BTW, what were the roles of Bill Drake compared to Ron Jacobs? Drake the consultant, Jacobs the PD?

 

[Ultimajock]

...could KHJ work if it was moved Eastward? The answer is found in Chicago. SuperCFL was a straight-up clone of KHJ with Lujack implanted. It left WIND in the Arbitron dust (apologies to Connie Szerszen) and beat WLS in '74. But WCFL didn't build on their newly-found championship and lost it back to WLS after ABC was able to fix. So the basic answer is yes, but not for long...

 

[michael hagerty]

Drake certainly could and did win in the East. But the initial question posed by Jimbo was who would win a KHJ vs. WABC battle in the same market. I'm assuming we're not bending timelines and that WABC would begin in 1960 and KHJ in 1965.

My answers remain...in L.A., WABC would have been old news (maybe older with KFWB having done personality top 40 two years longer, beginning in '58), and KHJ would have wound up the winner.

In New York, KHJ would probably have not been able to overcome WABC's head-start and listener loyalties. Most likely, it would have split the WMCA listenership and allowed WABC to be king of the hill sooner (ironically the same thing Drake's K-100 did in Los Angeles in 1974, splitting KKDJ's audience, allowing KHJ to stay on top despite declining shares and delaying the rise of FM Top 40 in that market).

Something to consider (and this is from someone who's a big Drake fan): Bill Drake never won a battle against an established competitor with a vastly better signal, except one: San Diego, where KGB (5kw at 1360) knocked off 50,000 watt KCBQ (1170). And the Q was highly directional at night, which affects some of your morning and afternoon drive a third of the year.

In L.A., KRLA (1110) was 50,000 watts, but had issues, and KFWB (980) was 5,000 watts like KHJ, with a similar dial position. And KRLA had weakened KFWB but had not yet risen to dominance (as The Real Don Steele said: "The joint was ripe.")

San Francisco: KEWB (5 kw at 910) was just about over and KYA had an inferior signal (5kw at 1260) to KFRC's 5,000 watts at 610 with the towers virtually in the bay.

Boston: WBZ was already on their way to Adult Contemporary, leaving WMEX down at 1510 on the dial. Easy pickin's for WRKO at 680.

Detroit: WXYZ at 1270 and WKNR at 1310. CKLW was already Top 40 with a monster signal. Drake just refined it and won.

Point is, none of those stations that had their tails handed to them by Bill Drake had the advantages of WABC. Again (among other reasons), probably why RKO didn't give him WOR-AM.

---Michael Hagerty

 

[LKellerIII]

Tuna - beware of sounding too polished with everything worked out so smooth that you lose a human sound of warmth.



I was listening to a KHJ Charlie Tuna 69 air check on Reelradio the other night, and kept thinking My god - this guy is polished and smooth...but also witty, clever, relaxed sounding, and adult. How old could he have been at the time? 25 tops? Just amazing. He can't have been very old because he still looks youthful almost 40 years later ...though that may be partially because his hair never ages.

This is a fascinating thread. I have nothing intelligent to add here (some would say that's par for my course). But please keep it up, everybody else.

 

[radiorob2.0]

It is also about talent. Dan Ingram and Robert W Morgan could interchange cities, both could adapt to format and surroundings. However, I don't think LA could adopt Cousin Brucie but New York City might take to RDS.

 

[radioman148]

>>it is also about talent. Dan Ingram and Robert W Morgan could interchange cities, both could adapt to format and surroundings>>

Robert W. Morgan laid a big egg in Chicago when he was there in the early 70s.
What works in one market doesn't necessarily translate to another.
Larry Lujack was gigantic in Chicago. Would he have worked in LA or NYC?

 

[LKellerIII]

"Robert W. Morgan laid a big egg in Chicago when he was there in the early 70s."

Really? I don't know the details, but maybe he would have been a hit had he stayed in Chicago longer. Remember that in Chicago, he was probably Robert W. Who?

In LA, he was well known, and had fans. Sure, nobody knew him when came to KHJ, but he had the advantage of becoming well known in a big hurry, because he premiered on the hottest new station in LA ever...at least up to that point, and probably even to this day.

 

[RadioStarOne]

Reelradio.com has an aircheck of Robert W. Morgans first show on 93 KHJ after returning from WIND. It is actually a very entertaining aircheck of RWM. Give it a listen...

 

[snoman]

Reelradio.com has an aircheck of Robert W. Morgans first show on 93 KHJ after returning from WIND. It is actually a very entertaining aircheck of RWM. Give it a listen...

They also just posted a new aircheck of him at WIND. You can tell by listening to him, that he was not as happy or energetic. WIND's presentation just was not as "fun" or polished as KHJ's was.

 

[jerrbud]

If I remember correctly, Charlie Tuna was born in the late 30's, and actually had about 10 years of radio between Scottsbluff, Nebraska, Oklahoma City and Boston by the time he arrived in LA. That being said, if you can find some Tuna airchecks from Oklahoma City or Boston, give them a good listen. He was phenominal then.

A friend from Nebraska once told me he was great the first time he opened the mic.

 

[davideduardo]

"Robert W. Morgan laid a big egg in Chicago when he was there in the early 70s."

Really? I don't know the details, but maybe he would have been a hit had he stayed in Chicago longer. Remember that in Chicago, he was probably Robert W. Who?

He would not have been a hit, as there was no growth. He simply did not fit the market or the station and more than Dick Biondi would have fit KHJ.

He also did not have RJ as PD, either.

 

[Oldbones]

Something to consider (and this is from someone who's a big Drake fan): Bill Drake never won a battle against an established competitor with a vastly better signal, except one: San Diego, where KGB (5kw at 1360) knocked off 50,000 watt KCBQ (1170). And the Q was highly directional at night, which affects some of your morning and afternoon drive a third of the year.

Boston: WBZ was already on their way to Adult Contemporary, leaving WMEX down at 1510 on the dial. Easy pickin's for WRKO at 680.

Not entirely true. While WBZ tended to have an AC-ish presentation, in March '67 when WRKO debuted, they were musically full-blown Top 40. Compare surveys between WBZ, WMEX & WRKO in '67 and there was little difference between the 3. WBZ's transition to AC only began in the autumn of '67 after being solidly knocked off their throne and coming in third in a 3-way Top 40 race in the spring/early summer book.

That having been said, if KHJ & WABC went up against one another in NYC, I'd bet on WABC. I never was a big fan of the station, but it's undisputable that they had the "groove".