Khti share 0.6. Time for a new format?

[Ryan Williams]

And, again, look at the usable coverage of KHTI. It covers only about 1/3 of the Inland Empire radio market with a 60 dbu signal.

Additionally, it is a rimshot from Arrowhead with 180 watts at 1800 feet. My experience with KRCV using lower power and great height was that the result was a bad signal everywhere.

I would love to hear more of that experience with KRCV.

It's currently 6,000 watts at 91 meters HAAT, but previously was just 600 watts at 306 meters HAAT. The current location appears to be chosen specifically to give a favorable HAAT calculation so it can be at the full Class A reference power.

Was the previous more-height-less-power setup better at anything? In car perhaps?

 

[davideduardo]

I would love to hear more of that experience with KRCV.

It's currently 6,000 watts at 91 meters HAAT, but previously was just 600 watts at 306 meters HAAT. The current location appears to be chosen specifically to give a favorable HAAT calculation so it can be at the full Class A reference power.

Was the previous more-height-less-power setup better at anything? In car perhaps?

The 600 watts on the side of the mountain created a weak signal over a wider area. However, it was not strong enough to get indoor home and work reception, even in close by locations. And it was to the north side of the market up on a mountainside so it did not really have its best signal where the potential listeners were.

The previous signal was not good for anything. Too little power. And in the more distant areas, terrain made for lots of shadowing, so nothing was gained. It theoretically got into the northern Orange County area, but we never saw a diary for that signal from the OC, ever.

By moving it to the hill near the 10 and 57 freeways, it is located right at the center of the desired population in the SGV, and the ratings for that signal nearly quadrupled. The site was picked to be above all the terrain in the San Gabriel Valley as well as having existing tower space available.

 

[Ryan Williams]

The 600 watts on the side of the mountain created a weak signal over a wider area. However, it was not strong enough to get indoor home and work reception, even in close by locations. And it was to the north side of the market up on a mountainside so it did not really have its best signal where the potential listeners were.

Very interesting and insightful.

In the KRCV case it wasn't really trading coverage area for building penetration as you say there were other issues at play, but I wonder in the cases where that is tradeoff, if in the future perhaps that calculation will change as the supply of non-car radios dries up (anyone who is in doubt, go visit your local Walmart/Target/Best Buy). It's a very dire situation.

If car radios become the primary or only am/fm radio a listener owns then building penetration doesn't really matter much. We aren't there yet, but there is trouble on the horizon for am/fm stations if a) listeners only listen from their vehicle or b) the only indoor "radios" are smart phones and speakers.

 

[30james]

David E it's possible for khti to get a 3 share. Back when it was KBON winter book 1990 it got a 3 share. Part of the problem is weak programming. I think it might do well as a classic hits station. Perhaps.

 

[michael hagerty]

David E it's possible for khti to get a 3 share. Back when it was KBON winter book 1990 it got a 3 share. Part of the problem is weak programming. I think it might do well as a classic hits station. Perhaps.

What a station did 31 years ago is no indication of what it can do today. David's said at least twice here that the listenable signal covers only a third of the market as it exists today.

The Inland Empire population in 1990 was 2.5 million. It's 4.6 million in the new census. Those people weren't absorbed into a 1990 footprint. In fact, the IE was cited in a 2002 study by Smart Growth America as the worst example of urban sprawl in the country.

The market outgrew the signal. It can't reasonably expect to pull a 3 share anymore.

 

[davideduardo]

In the KRCV case it wasn't really trading coverage area for building penetration as you say there were other issues at play, but I wonder in the cases where that is tradeoff, if in the future perhaps that calculation will change as the supply of non-car radios dries up (anyone who is in doubt, go visit your local Walmart/Target/Best Buy). It's a very dire situation.

The issues at play were trading a signal that was no good anywhere and under a variety of formats, including ours, got no appreciable ratings.. Bringing it down to the center of the San Gabriel Valley gave it excellent coverage of a huge population center.

If car radios become the primary or only am/fm radio a listener owns then building penetration doesn't really matter much. We aren't there yet, but there is trouble on the horizon for am/fm stations if a) listeners only listen from their vehicle or b) the only indoor "radios" are smart phones and speakers.

Still, that is a gradual process and, with Spanish language stations, reinforced with the average age of Hispanic owned vehicles in LA being over 12 years vs. 10 for the market as a whole.

 

[30james]

What a station did 31 years ago is no indication of what it can do today. David's said at least twice here that the listenable signal covers only a third of the market as it exists today.

The Inland Empire population in 1990 was 2.5 million. It's 4.6 million in the new census. Those people weren't absorbed into a 1990 footprint. In fact, the IE was cited in a 2002 study by Smart Growth America as the worst example of urban sprawl in the country.

The market outgrew the signal. It can't reasonably expect to pull a 3 share anymore.

Ok michael hagerty

 

[ChannelFlipper]

What a station did 31 years ago is no indication of what it can do today. David's said at least twice here that the listenable signal covers only a third of the market as it exists today.

The Inland Empire population in 1990 was 2.5 million. It's 4.6 million in the new census. Those people weren't absorbed into a 1990 footprint. In fact, the IE was cited in a 2002 study by Smart Growth America as the worst example of urban sprawl in the country.

The market outgrew the signal. It can't reasonably expect to pull a 3 share anymore.

Does anybody really care that "Smart Growth America" thinks the IE is the "worst example of urban sprawl in America"? You could have just left it at the "market has outgrown the signal" and everyone here would have understood your point, but the real point was to take an unnecessary shot.

The IE may be a lot of bad things but it is also the home of many first-time homeowners who could never afford to buy a home elsewhere, a good percentage of them being Hispanics and other immigrants looking for their shot at the American Dream and a real home to raise their families.. I bet your NPR station never talks about that aspect of it either.

The dripping condescension level here is off the charts.

 

[michael hagerty]

Does anybody really care that "Smart Growth America" thinks the IE is the "worst example of urban sprawl in America"? You could have just left it at the "market has outgrown the signal" and everyone here would have understood your point, but the real point was to take an unnecessary shot.

The IE may be a lot of bad things but it is also the home of many first-time homeowners who could never afford to buy a home elsewhere, a good percentage of them being Hispanics and other immigrants looking for their shot at the American Dream and a real home to raise their families.. I bet your NPR station never talks about that aspect of it either.

The dripping condescension level here is off the charts.

Wow, Flip. Good morning to you, too.

Not sure how citing a statistic that illustrates the physical growth of the IE is an "unnecessary shot". I considered it context, showing that the growth was nothing new (the report is from 19 years ago).

Condescension would have been asking why the OP hadn't read the report. David had actually said twice that the market had outgrown the signal, so clearly, not everyone understood the point.

 

[Mediafrog+]

Does anybody really care that "Smart Growth America" thinks the IE is the "worst example of urban sprawl in America"? You could have just left it at the "market has outgrown the signal" and everyone here would have understood your point, but the real point was to take an unnecessary shot.

The IE may be a lot of bad things but it is also the home of many first-time homeowners who could never afford to buy a home elsewhere, a good percentage of them being Hispanics and other immigrants looking for their shot at the American Dream and a real home to raise their families.. I bet your NPR station never talks about that aspect of it either.

Good point about first time homeowners. The problem I've seen with those who complain about "urban sprawl" is that they tend to be the same people who also oppose densification of existing urban areas. When population increases, you have two choices: build outwards, or build upwards. "Neither" doesn't work.

Of course from a terrestrial radio standpoint, the debate between horizontal and vertical urban expansion is sort of a no-win situation: Expand outwards, and you have to put a good signal over a wider area. Expand upwards, while less area to cover, you have to penetrate all those tall buildings. Decisions, decisions...

 

[davideduardo]

The IE may be a lot of bad things but it is also the home of many first-time homeowners who could never afford to buy a home elsewhere, a good percentage of them being Hispanics and other immigrants looking for their shot at the American Dream and a real home to raise their families.. I bet your NPR station never talks about that aspect of it either.

Yes, but...

The urban sprawl in the IE has caused many who want a home they can afford to have hour long commutes each way, burdening the infrastructure and making the metro among the two or three most polluted in the nation.

The fact is that there are not many well paying jobs in the IE, as the local economy is based on warehousing and distribution centers. Oh, and those thousands of semis that load and unload all the stuff that come to the ports in LA from China add to the pollution, too.

The dripping condescension level here is off the charts.

No, the fact that Michael presented reinforced the conclusion that radio stations have seen the market outgrow their signals. The same thing happened to all but one AM in Cleveland, all but one in Houston, all AMs in Phoenix, just to name three examples.

In fact, in many metros urban sprawl made markets outgrow all their AMs as far back as the 60's. That is one of the reasons why FMs grew so fast in the next decade: many suburban listeners couldn't hear the AMs well so they moved to FM.

 

[michael hagerty]

No, the fact that Michael presented reinforced the conclusion that radio stations have seen the market outgrow their signals. The same thing happened to all but one AM in Cleveland, all but one in Houston, all AMs in Phoenix, just to name three examples.

And for that matter, all but two in Los Angeles---KFI and KNX.

 

[davideduardo]

And for that matter, all but two in Los Angeles---KFI and KNX.

And, maybe, 570. Never underestimate the coverage of 5kw on 570!

 

[michael hagerty]

And, maybe, 570. Never underestimate the coverage of 5kw on 570!

Which would argue that San Francisco probably has five---560, 610 (both 5kw), 680, 740 and 810 (all 50kw). I'm skeptical, though, on night power, of any but 680 and 810.

 

[Ryan Williams]

Which would argue that San Francisco probably has five---560, 610 (both 5kw), 680, 740 and 810 (all 50kw). I'm skeptical, though, on night power, of any but 680 and 810.

1100 isn't terrible either.

I think it is generally believed that Chicago and SF are the two best major markets for AM facilities with good coverage day and night. In Chicago, you've got 560, 670, 720, 780, 890, and 1000. 1100 isn't horrible either. The western sprawl though is chipping away at 560 and 1100 historical "full market" coverage.

Also, even at the bottom end of the band, I really don't believe 5 kW gets the job done anymore in large urban environments. Recent experience: 570 KLIF in DFW, 610 KILT in Houston, which aren't even as dense as many of the other top 10 markets. 590 KLBJ in Austin too.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Yes, but...

The urban sprawl in the IE has caused many who want a home they can afford to have hour long commutes each way, burdening the infrastructure and making the metro among the two or three most polluted in the nation.

The fact is that there are not many well paying jobs in the IE, as the local economy is based on warehousing and distribution centers. Oh, and those thousands of semis that load and unload all the stuff that come to the ports in LA from China add to the pollution, too.

No, the fact that Michael presented reinforced the conclusion that radio stations have seen the market outgrow their signals. The same thing happened to all but one AM in Cleveland, all but one in Houston, all AMs in Phoenix, just to name three examples.

In fact, in many metros urban sprawl made markets outgrow all their AMs as far back as the 60's. That is one of the reasons why FMs grew so fast in the next decade: many suburban listeners couldn't hear the AMs well so they moved to FM.

So you're trying to refute my point or make it for me?

Guess what - all over the world the places where the poorest among the population try to build a life for themselves are less desirable than where the rich live, and the jobs there are not the most lucrative.

You seem awfully concerned about the smog there, but I have never heard you complain of the smog in Mexico City, which is so bad that that in 1992 the UN declared it to be the "most polluted city in the world" and six years later the "most dangerous city for children". My guess is the people who live in the IE have it much better than the lower working class of Mexico City. Not everyone makes large six figure salaries and can afford to retire to Palm Springs and look down on their less fortunate brethren. This may come as surprise to you, but some people actually consider themselves fortunate to live there, regardless of its problems.

Michael does not generally use ridiculously unnecessary invective to make his point, and immediately took exception to my calling him out on it, which leads me to believe he didn't realize how patronizing his comment was; an honest faux pas - we all make them. You jumping up to defend the faux pas as somehow justified while further patronizing the area is another matter.

BTW, I am well aware of the low wages earned at the warehouses there. I know firsthand because they were among the many jobs I took to put myself through college. I also know firsthand the IEs many problems. I was born and (for part of my childhood) raised there. While I have moved on, make a very nice living for myself and live in a much more disereable part of town, I never forget where I came from, and at the time I was damned glad for every low-wage dollar I earned there.

 

[ZantennaG1]

1100 isn't terrible either.

I think it is generally believed that Chicago and SF are the two best major markets for AM facilities with good coverage day and night. In Chicago, you've got 560, 670, 720, 780, 890, and 1000. 1100 isn't horrible either. The western sprawl though is chipping away at 560 and 1100 historical "full market" coverage.

Also, even at the bottom end of the band, I really don't believe 5 kW gets the job done anymore in large urban environments. Recent experience: 570 KLIF in DFW, 610 KILT in Houston, which aren't even as dense as many of the other top 10 markets. 590 KLBJ in Austin too.

Your definitely right about Chicago having decent ground conductivity. Omaha, as another example, will probably never outgrow the coverage area of most of it's AMs. Even the smaller ones on the upper end of the band usually makes it to Lincoln 50 miles away, and then you have the big ones, such as 590 KXSP, 660 KCRO, 1020 KMMQ, and 1110 KFAB, who all make it to Grand Island with nearly local status. Got to love the ground conductivity of the plains!

 

[michael hagerty]

Michael does not generally use ridiculously unnecessary invective to make his point, and immediately took exception to my calling him out on it, which leads me to believe he didn't realize how patronizing his comment was; an honest faux pas - we all make them.

Thanks for the benefit of the doubt, Flip. But I still am struggling to see how it patronizes the IE. Sprawl is a fact, not a pejorative. L.A. is sprawling and I love L.A. (do I owe Randy Newman money for saying that?). I brought up the study because its finding, at the time, was that the IE had bigger issues with urban sprawl than L.A., Atlanta, Phoenix or any of dozens of large American metropolitan areas that have grown far outside their boundaries of decades ago.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

All,

I want to publicy apologize to David for the well-over-the-line inappropriate personal shot I took at him in the above post. I have already done so privately, but feel it is important to do so here as well.

As long-time readers of this site know, I sometimes hold others accountable for ridiculous or inappropriate posts. It is only right that If I go over the line, I hold myself to the same standard.

Neither David nor anyone else has forced me to post this, I am doing so on my own as I believe it is the right thing to do.

Again, apologies to all, but specifically to David.

Thank you and now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

CF

 

[davideduardo]

Also, even at the bottom end of the band, I really don't believe 5 kW gets the job done anymore in large urban environments. Recent experience: 570 KLIF in DFW, 610 KILT in Houston, which aren't even as dense as many of the other top 10 markets. 590 KLBJ in Austin too.

At issue with KLBH and KILT are very severe night directional patterns. Daytime, they do just fine... although HOU is geographically one of the largest, by territory, markets in the US.