Kinescoped Shows from Hollywood in the mid-'50s

[Ultimajock]

...watching the DVD set of "The Johnny Carson Show" (the '55-56 CBS prime time sketch comedy, not the talk show) made me wonder something. I know for prime time shows that originated in New York, the West Coast got shown a hot kinescope three hours later that was made in Hollywood off the network line. The Carson show, on the other hand, originated in Hollywood and aired at 10:00 P.M. on Thursdays on the East Coast. This suggests three possibilities for how the West Coast got the program:

1) The show was produced live at 7:00 P.M. Pacific Time, fed up the network line live and shown as a hot kinnie to the West Coast, or

2) The show was produced twice, once at 7:00 P.M. Pacific/10:00 P.M. Eastern and again at 10:00 P.M. Pacific, allowing both coasts to get a live feed, with kinescopes going out to secondary CBS affiliates, or

3) The show was pre-produced on kinescope several days before airing and both coasts got the thing on film.

...anyone here know, in the days before videotape, which of these was *usually* done with the big shows that originated from Hollywood (Berle, Skelton, "Colgate Comedy Hour")? I know that NBC had Red Skelton do most of his early TV work directly on film, but the CBS shows I've seen appear to all have been kinescoped; as well, some Jack Benny items I've seen from the period were clearly kinescoped and others directly filmed...

 

[stevezodiac]

OK, bpatrick or Mr. Gallant, we are are waiting on the answers.....

 

[oldiesfan6479]

...anyone here know, in the days before videotape, which of these was *usually* done with the big shows that originated from Hollywood (Berle, Skelton, "Colgate Comedy Hour")?

I would guess that if it was on at 8/7 Central then it was done live at 5 PT
for the east and the left coast saw a kinnie at 8 PT. There were a few
exceptions to the "8 Eastern & Pacific" rule where a show was live to all
time zones, but this was typically a late evening show, such as 10:30 ET
which put it on at 7:30 PT--I think What's My Line may have aired
in such as manner at least during some seasons before video tape.

A good clue is in the story of how I Love Lucy became a (35mm) filmed
show instead of live. CBS execs--under the presumption it would be live--
told Lucy and Desi "of course you'll do the show from New York" as they
didn't want the more populous ET/CT areas to have to watch an inferior
kinnie.

Lucy and Desi didn't want to leave El Lay so Desi and Karl Freund worked up
the method for three-camera 35mm filming on a soundstage...and the rest
was history. Not to mention Desilu owning the shows, and the rerun rights!

 

[Al Johnson]

...watching the DVD set of "The Johnny Carson Show" (the '55-56 CBS prime time sketch comedy, not the talk show) made me wonder something. I know for prime time shows that originated in New York, the West Coast got shown a hot kinescope three hours later that was made in Hollywood off the network line. The Carson show, on the other hand, originated in Hollywood and aired at 10:00 P.M. on Thursdays on the East Coast. This suggests three possibilities for how the West Coast got the program:

1) The show was produced live at 7:00 P.M. Pacific Time, fed up the network line live and shown as a hot kinnie to the West Coast, or

2) The show was produced twice, once at 7:00 P.M. Pacific/10:00 P.M. Eastern and again at 10:00 P.M. Pacific, allowing both coasts to get a live feed, with kinescopes going out to secondary CBS affiliates, or

3) The show was pre-produced on kinescope several days before airing and both coasts got the thing on film.

...anyone here know, in the days before videotape, which of these was *usually* done with the big shows that originated from Hollywood (Berle, Skelton, "Colgate Comedy Hour")? I know that NBC had Red Skelton do most of his early TV work directly on film, but the CBS shows I've seen appear to all have been kinescoped; as well, some Jack Benny items I've seen from the period were clearly kinescoped and others directly filmed...

Benny continued to his radio show weekly until 1956. He did the TV show on an occasional basis from New York for the first two seasons (while doing his weekly radio show from Columbia Square in Hollywood, except for the weeks he was in New York). With the 1952-1953 season, the availability of the coast to coast coaxial cable and the opening of Television City, he began doing the show from California on a once a month and then every other week basis. Originally, shows we done live and followed the format of the radio show (including using recycled scripts from old radio shows). As the schedule picked up, Benny began filming some shows as a one-camera sitcom.

George and Gracie shut down their radio show and relocated in 1950 to do their show live from New York. In 1952 they came back to Califonia, and with the success of I Love Lucy on film, switched to a one-camera filmed show. Burns started his own production company (McCadden Productions) which also shot Benny's early filmed shows (he later moved to Desilu), The Bob Cummings Show, Mister Ed and the Beverly Hillbillies (Paul Henning was George and Gracie's head writer).

The Colgate Comedy Hour started as a New York show but later was often done from Hollywood (especially when they had a California-based host in a given week).

I Love Lucy premiered about a month after the first coast to coast broadcast, although it was not until the follow season the coax was in regular use by all four networks. Had Lucy started a year later, it could have (and probably would have) been done live from LA and most shows would be lost forever (except for kinescopes made for smaller market stations where the cable did not yet reach).

Kinescope was only used to record shows for the West Coast or off-coax markets. Live repeats were common in radio but were too expensive to be used regularly in television. It was not uncommon in the early days for a show to be seen live on both coasts and for alternative programming to be seen only on the networks' Pacific Loops (there were still regional brands which wanted to sponsor shows for the West only).

 

[Ultimajock]

...interesting. Well, since this was prompted by watching "The Johnny Carson Show," does anyone have any West Coast Thursday Night listings from the Autumn of 1955 to see precisely what the pattern was for showing that series in PT?...

 

[mmb5]

I did a little hunting on NewspaperArchive. It looks like L.A. ran it at 7:00, the East ran it at 10:00, the rest of the West either delayed it or didn't run it at all. I'm not sure how well the connections were on January 19, 1956 (the date I chose), but I saw both an L.A. and an Eastern listing that listed the same guest stars (Eva Gabor and Jack Prince). The other Pacific Time Zone listings I could find were all over the map:

San Francisco -- didn't clear (at least on Thursday)
Sacramento -- 10:00 PM
Fresno -- 10:30 PM
Eureka -- didn't clear


--Mike

 

[ercjncpr]

[/quote]

Benny continued to his radio show weekly until 1956.

[/quote]

Slight correction, original radio broadcasts of Jack Benny's radio show ended on May 22,1955 but CBS Radio continued re-runs on Sunday nights until 1958

 

[bpatrick]

I did a little hunting on NewspaperArchive. It looks like L.A. ran it at 7:00, the East ran it at 10:00, the rest of the West either delayed it or didn't run it at all. I'm not sure how well the connections were on January 19, 1956 (the date I chose), but I saw both an L.A. and an Eastern listing that listed the same guest stars (Eva Gabor and Jack Prince). The other Pacific Time Zone listings I could find were all over the map:

San Francisco -- didn't clear (at least on Thursday)
Sacramento -- 10:00 PM
Fresno -- 10:30 PM
Eureka -- didn't clear


--Mike

That seems to be a pattern. In the past, I have posted San Francisco and Los Angeles listing from 1951, and I notice that the "Colgate Comedy Hour" was live
in both cities at 5 PM (PT). "Arthur Godfrey's Talent Scouts" aired live in San
Francisco Mondays at 5:30 (PT), but on kinescope in LA at 8:30, three hours
after its East Coast airing. Douglas Edwards' newscast, which aired at 7:30 on
the East Coast, aired at 8:15 (PT) in both cities via kinescope.

On January 30, 1954, Jackie Gleason broke his leg when he slipped in a puddle of water during a sketch. That show aired on the West Coast at 8 PM (PT), three hours after the East Coast saw it live.

So I would guess that Pacific stations had the option of carrying a show live or taking a "hot kine," depending on its particular scheduling strategy.

What I would like to know is this: from 1950 to 1953 "Your Hit Parade" (NBC) aired on our one local station, WFMY (CBS primary), at 11:30 PM Saturdays. The show aired on the network at 10:30. Given that the show's format was a rundown of the week's top songs, necessitating immediacy in airing, how would WFMY have dealt with this?

 

[Al Johnson]

So I would guess that Pacific stations had the option of carrying a show live or taking a "hot kine," depending on its particular scheduling strategy.

It is not likely that stations had the option. The network feed went to LA (NBC was then located at Hollywood and Vine before moving to Burbank). LA fed the NBC Pacific Network (which was semi-autonomous then, as it had been in network radio). For a station to have the option of taking a show live or using a "hot kine," the station would need access to the live feed of the show and then have the facilities to make a hot kine for themselves. Back then, few stations even had the capabilities to produce local news stories on film (at most, they might have a guy with a 16mm camera and send film to a local lab).

I recall reading (somebody check me on this) that Space Patrol was produced live on Saturdays for both the East and West coasts.

 

[bpatrick]

That sounds logical, and I assume the same
thing applied to CBS. It doesn't explain, however,
how some California affiliates were able to run
Johnny Carson's show at 10 PM (PT). I would
suspect that Channel 2 in Los Angeles, being an
o&o, had the capability to make kinescopes, but
what about a market like Sacramento? Might
Carson have aired on delay there?

BTW, if you watch GSN, you know that they
air some of the old Goodson-Todman shows
like What's My Line?, and in some cases episodes
originally aired in the '50s. The reason they have
survived is because G-T used to film their shows
for stations that didn't carry them live (Lawrence
Welk did this, too, which is why some of his '50s-
era shows have turned up on PBS), then they held
onto them (most, anyway, since the networks
destroyed most of their daytime shows).

 

[rickradio]

NBC was then located at Hollywood and Vine before moving to Burbank

Not to be persnickety, but in the interest of accuracy, wasn't NBC at Sunset and Vine (northeast corner, to be exact) before moving to Burbank?

 

[Al Johnson]

That sounds logical, and I assume the same
thing applied to CBS. It doesn't explain, however,
how some California affiliates were able to run
Johnny Carson's show at 10 PM (PT). I would
suspect that Channel 2 in Los Angeles, being an
o&o, had the capability to make kinescopes, but
what about a market like Sacramento? Might
Carson have aired on delay there?

BTW, if you watch GSN, you know that they
air some of the old Goodson-Todman shows
like What's My Line?, and in some cases episodes
originally aired in the '50s. The reason they have
survived is because G-T used to film their shows
for stations that didn't carry them live (Lawrence
Welk did this, too, which is why some of his '50s-
era shows have turned up on PBS), then they held
onto them (most, anyway, since the networks
destroyed most of their daytime shows).

Yes, the network set-up for the different networks and their LA (O&Os) was pretty much the same, as I understand it. Carson was a KNXT local show that got picked up the network. It's not out of the question for KNXT (or KNBH) to have taken a show live (especially one they produce themselves) and put a kine on the Pacific Network later.

Now that you mention it, the 50s What's My Line Shows on GSN do look better than a kine. Did Goodson-Todman use a system to the one Jackie Gleason used to film the 39 stand-alone Honeymooners' episodes? Have separate film camera running to film show Desilu-style? Of course, with a little care and effort and good engineers, it was possible to greatly improve the picture quality on a kine (although the networks didn't usually bother), so GT might have produced their own kines for the West Coast and stations not yet inter-connected.

I know the Today Show did a live repeat of the 7am hour at 9am ET for the Central Time zone. What did they do for the Pacific network?

 

[bpatrick]

NBC was then located at Hollywood and Vine before moving to Burbank

Not to be persnickety, but in the interest of accuracy, wasn't NBC at Sunset and Vine (northeast corner, to be exact) before moving to Burbank?

It was Sunset and Vine. After NBC moved to Burbank the studio was
torn down and a Home Savings and Loan went up on the site.

CBS's old facility (before Television City) was Columbia Square, located
a couple of blocks or so from NBC's Sunset and Vine studios (Phil Harris
used to have to rush from CBS, where he appeared on Jack Benny's
show, to NBC, where he had his own show in the time slot following
Benny's). Since KTTV was, at one time, CBS's Los Angeles affiliate,
was Columbia Square on the same site where Fox has its L.A. facilities
now?

 

[Al Johnson]

Since KTTV was, at one time, CBS's Los Angeles affiliate,
was Columbia Square on the same site where Fox has its L.A. facilities
now?

No. Columbia Square was CBS' main West Coast facility starting in 1938. It was home to CBS Radio and KNX during the 50s and beyond (KNX Newsradio moved out in 2005). CBS built it after acquiring KNX in 1937 (before that CBS' LA affiliate was KHJ and the Don Lee Network carried CBS programs on the West Coast; KHJ and Don Lee picked up Mutual). KNXT/KCBS-TV also operated from Columbia Square and have recently relocated. Preservationists want save Columbia Square; developers want to tear it down.

Sorry about the Sunset and Vine slip. NBC did not have an O&O in LA before TV; their radio affiliates were KFI (Red) and KECA (Blue - Now KABC), both owned by Earle C. Anthony. Before they moved to the Hollywood facility in the late 30s, NBC originated broadcasts from RKO. RCA, which owned NBC was a partner in RKO. The RKO lot was later Desilu and then was merged with the Paramount lot next door.

ABC/KECA-TV/KABC-TV operated from the former Vitagraph studios on Prospect at Talmadge until 2000.

KTTV was co-owned by CBS and the LA Times (which now is co-owned with KTLA) until 1951. From 1950 to 1963, KTTV operated from the Nassour Studio on Sunset before being sold to Metromedia and moving to Metromedia Square. KTTV moved to its present location in 1996.

 

[rickradio]

Before they moved to the Hollywood facility in the late 30s, NBC originated broadcasts from RKO. RCA, which owned NBC was a partner in RKO. The RKO lot was later Desilu and then was merged with the Paramount lot next door.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh, so that's why NBC was at 5515 Melrose Avenue until 1938. They moved to Sunset and Vine from Melrose in '38. I'm assuming Don Lee moved KHJ into that building when NBC vacated it (or did that happen later)? I know that KHJ was at 5515 Melrose until 1949, then again in the 60s thru the 80s. Would you know anything about that, Al? Thanks...

 

[Al Johnson]

RKO changed hands a few times: First, RCA (Radio), Keith-Orpheum (a vaudeville theater circuit converted to movie theaters) and Joe Kennedy. Then Howard Hughes. Then General Tire to form RKO-General. RKO-General bought KHJ from Don Lee and KFI-TV from Earle Anthony (which became KHJ-TV) in 1951 (plus other Don Lee stations). RKO-General sold the movie lot (where Lucy had begun her career as a contract player in the 30s) to Desi and Lucy in 1957. The FCC forced RKO General out of broadcasting in the 80s as a result of various shady practices.