Chicago, with Feder's column, seems to be the only city with such a paper, judging by posts here at RadioDiscussions. Of course, many papers still run the weekly television Nielsens, but those are national ratings in an Associated Press story, not local coverage.
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KIRO-FM climbs back to the top
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Keep in mind that Feder works for himself, not the paper. He left the paper in 2008:
Robert Feder | Chicago media served fresh daily since 1980
www.robertfeder.com
What surprises me is why they keep a full-time morning show and program director? The wake-up show and Eric Rosado are both based in Seattle. I feel like iHeart is trying to cut money everywhere they can.
I would be interested in seeing the ratings for both of them.
Oops!Keep in mind that Feder works for himself, not the paper. He left the paper in 2008:
Robert Feder | Chicago media served fresh daily since 1980
As someone mentioned, that may have been the case in the 70's and 80's before PPM. Victor Strideky(sp) and his radio column in the Seattle Time of old comes to mind. The 6+ numbers that hobbyists around here jump on, are most likely seeing them on line. Any 6+ numbers serve no public service. Never have, never will. Doubt it if 99.9% of the general public could care less.
You completely missed the point: My example pointed out that demographic breakout could be that a station which pulled a higher share in 6+, may be a bulk of essentially useless demographics. You mentioned CHR. My example was 12-17 Males, which in spite of contributing to a 6+ published rating, would not be very appealing as an audience for a station looking for 18-24M or F. The higher number of 12-17 year olds who participated in the survey, could potentially skew the 6+ numbers, getting people who believe 6+ is a barometer of a station's success, arriving at an incorrect conclusion.
PPM samples what a survey group listens to, rather than the old days of phone, or someone filling out a survey an hour before the mailing deadline. For better or worse, PPM is the system currently in use. Full stop.
Glad to hear you have access to the 'real data' so you can put the plebes in their place.
However, when I hear the same exact advertisements on a station that I heard in 2016, it tells me that they must be still making some money off them. Obviously for a reason. I know that the station in question charges a fair amount, generally, for their advertisements, because a previous employer had me look into the idea of advertising there. Believe you me, a business won't drop $1000 a month for advertising if they don't see an ROI. And in this business climate, even if their rates have dropped, a business still isn't going to pay for advertising unless they see an ROI.
Which means somebody must be listening to the station, regardless of which numbers one wants to quote.
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You're right about that. Sort of like using 6+ numbers to determine whether a station is successful or not. Without all the information, including a basic understanding of what the station target demographics they're trying to reach and how well they reach them, your conclusion is based on completely flawed information.
Look, I get it. Telling people on this board that 6+ ratings are meaningless in today's world is like telling a six year old there is no Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy. Sometimes we just need to hear harsh reality.
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Keep in mind some of us actually WORK in this field, so we have access to things. I try not to use any of it here because that's not what it's for, and the non-pros don't care anyway. There's no point confusing anyone with facts.
Even local advertisers, the few who aren't represented by an agency, purchase a run of spots over a period of time. The period of that contract could span a week, month, or several months. The advertiser either pays the radio station extra to produce the spot, or it might be produced by another production company. Either way, writing and producing the spot costs money. The fact that Boombox heard the same spot recently that he heard in 2016, only means the advertiser has determined the spot works, so why change it?
In my experience, from Lake City, FL, to NYC and LA, local accounts that buy direct from a station will get basic writing and production services from the station. Charges are only made in the case of a complex production, such as a jingle, or with endorsements where the talent is paid. A few rare situations require payment due to union rules.
In the best case, Jerry Lee's WBEB in Philadelphia not only did production, they offered services where a client's advertising would be tested against potential consumers to try to find effective positions and sales points.
Many times a station will bake-in production costs into the contract, depending on how long the flight is. Paying the talent or production folks ultimately cost the station money. The client pays for it one way or the other.
I have to disagree with you on that one. Many non-professionals understand that much of this information is confidential, and would probably find it interesting if it were readily available. Anyone even remotely interested in radio would love to have some insight about how their favorite morning show performs in the market, or find out if a radio station they like is beating the competition. 6+ ratings are given away for free, and considering that most people would probably classify themselves as outsiders, this is the data that they will naturally be of some interest.
Fair enough, understood.
And you also understand that even a lot of people who work in the industry don't have access to the real numbers. I worked in it for 20 years, never saw the real numbers, unless they were alluded to in the manner that they are in some radio publications where the writer talks about the top five stations in particular demos.
Most of us here on RD probably don't have much, if any, access to the 'real numbers'. So we draw conclusions from the only data we have, which comes from the same company that gives you guys the more valid data.
The reason that specific demographic breakdown is withheld from general public view, is because participating stations and agencies pay big money for it. Nielsen publishes 6+ numbers because the data is very general/not specific.
David and other's have regularly provided general-rounded information that whereas still gives an idea of performance around a demo, but doesn't violate any terms of service or copyright with Nielsen, BIA, or their clients. Quite a bit of publicly traded broadcaster's corporate financial performance reporting is available to the general public on-line if you choose to dig a little.
As you've seen around here, armchair media execs who participate on this board, frequently are quick to site 6+ numbers, equally quick to declare that a station is circling the business drain, various staff should all be fired, or should change format to AAA Country, 50's through 80's oldies, etc. Or that their personal-favorite format is getting shafted because the 6+ numbers aren't as expected. I get it; much of this speculation and outrage amounts to what happens around Fantasy Football season. The difference is; the vast majority of fantasy sports players know what they're playing is just a game.
I can't disagree on that one, most of the experts on Radio Discussions have been willing to share limited insights when misinformation was spotted. I've been on both sides of this coin, as I've been in the business and on the outside looking in. People who aren't in the business sometimes tend to think they know more than the actually do. I have personally been guilty of doing the same thing when I was more of a hobbyist, and I am still guilty of that today because I'm not an expert with 30+ years of experience. I figure that if someone is taking interest in the business it's worth having these discussions with them because there is only one way to learn.
And I totally agree with you. Other than a brief stint at my uncle's John Deere dealership one summer, radio and TV is all I've ever done with a paycheck attached. It was my first paying job, and remains so decades later. From what I can tell, David has an equally long history in the business. Maybe even longer
Don't get me wrong, I don't know everything there is to know about the business, but it comes with a lot of experience. Like me, there are other folks on this site who I'm sure are willing to share their knowledge if participants aren't too timid to ask.
Began as the holder of a single share of Storer Broadcasting in 1957. Became a DXer in 1958 to try to hear all the Storer stations. Started in radio as a go-fer in 1959. That makes 62 years, I think. A few, such as working for Liberman from '92 to '94, were "dog years" so the total may be more like 70 years under that criteria.And I totally agree with you. Other than a brief stint at my uncle's John Deere dealership one summer, radio and TV is all I've ever done with a paycheck attached. It was my first paying job, and remains so decades later. From what I can tell, David has an equally long history in the business. Maybe even longer
A fascinating thing about radio is that there is never just one correct answer to management, sales, programming... even some aspects of engineering. I've seen plenty of winning stations where I have thought "I'd never have done it that way" but where their way worked. We learn from observing others (which is why I get so much out of this site) just as much as we learn from our mistakes.
I'm glad that you're willing to share, Kelly! There is a ton of great information on a forum such as this, and we're lucky to have access to your knowledge (along with David, and the other senior members). While we can all learn a lot from your experience, I also tend to think that direct personal experience is the best way for someone with curiosity to learn about how the business functions. That strategy definitely worked for me, as most of what I thought I knew going in turned out to be entirely false.And I totally agree with you. Other than a brief stint at my uncle's John Deere dealership one summer, radio and TV is all I've ever done with a paycheck attached. It was my first paying job, and remains so decades later. From what I can tell, David has an equally long history in the business. Maybe even longer
Don't get me wrong, I don't know everything there is to know about the business, but it comes with a lot of experience. Like me, there are other folks on this site who I'm sure are willing to share their knowledge if participants aren't too timid to ask.
We share all the time, Ford. As you've seen, many of the Hobbyists, just don't want to believe it.
Just as with politics anymore, sometimes the facts and actual data don't spark the excitement and strong opinions that people crave.
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