KKGO off the air 1-26-08

[Rebafan]

KKGO has been off the air since just after 11AM this morning, 1-26-2008

Since I only really listen on Sundays it was the numerous phone calls asking me "What happened to KKGO" that make me wonder what was going on...
HOURS later on the KKGO website they put up an announcement:

We are currently off the air on 105.1 FM due to adverse weather conditions at our transmitter location. We hope to have the problem corrected as soon as possible.

For those without computers etc. I hope that they find out the station is down before they try waking up to it on the alarm clocks...

 

[Beachdog]

8:30 PM Still of the air... The only one on Mt Wilson to go down was Mt Wilson.

 

[recplayer]

Looks like Saul's got a new format! "Go Silence 105FM" What a day for this to happen... 5 Garth shows at the Staples Center!!!

 

[socamex26]

Looks like Saul's got a new format! "Go Silence 105FM" What a day for this to happen... 5 Garth shows at the Staples Center!!!

I'll have to check out if their HD signal is working. I hear its to separate analog.

 

[nmoore6676]

Still off at 5:21am 1-27.
Maybe it's bad Karma for letting Todd go?

 

[Rebafan]

Still off at 5:21am 1-27.
Maybe it's bad Karma for letting Todd go?

Lets see...
Bad Karma for:
Whitney Allen being taken off during the week
Not airing any callers whether contest winners, request call ins etc.
Letting Todd Baker Go.
The possibility they have dropped a listener favorite with the Theme Thursday part of the Morning Show....

Sunday is the only day I listen (from 9AM thru Midnight) I will miss Gary, Melody and Jimmy Kay today if they don't come back on sometime today....

I totally agree with the above statement of What a day for this to Happen... January 26th, 1 month less than a year before they went FM, AND a day when Garth is doing 3 live shows from the staples where they were broadcasting LIVE from....

KFRG's ratings fell from a 5.1 to a 3.9 after the fire and wind knocked out their transmitter, and just months before the power outage in Colton took them off the air ... Wonder what will happen with KKGO numbers....

 

[nmoore6676]

I forgot about Whitney, I enjoyed her show even though it wasn't local and every once in a while she would have a caller from Ohio (Columbus) where I'm from. I have already agreed with you, Rebafan, that having callers is a good thing if not overdone.

According to the FCC database they are licensed for two auxiliary transmitters but maybe they all feed the same antenna. Something they might want to reconsider if they want to be a major presence in the market. Most stations have the backups into a standby antenna sometimes on a different tower or even another location as well.

 

[socalguy]

So let me try to understand this...it's the biggest day in Los Angeles for country music since Garth retired. You're doing weeks and weeks of promotions/ticket giveaways and plan live broadcasts from the greatest arena in the country featuring the performer who is almost singly responsible for the popularity of modern country music and you're not prepared for any technical continency. If I was Ol Saul, I'd have had my chief tech living at the transmitter all week and would have made plans for as many engineers as I could find to provide back up assistance. And I've have made darn sure we had double triple and quadruple checked the back up systems/transmitters. While no one's saying what the problem is, I find this lapse in operational competency at such a critical time for the format in Los Angeles to be reprehensible.

If this happened to any other rated station in the market you'd be reading about management changes in the morning. Instead I predict laradio.com will write a loving tribute to the struggle of the valiant KKGO staff to get back on the air, how Saul personally drove his four wheel drive hybrid to the top of Mt. Wilson loaded with hot chocolate and Subway sandwiches (bought on trade) for his staff, how this "little station that could" was trying Soooooooooooooooo hard but nature wouldn't cooperate...

Sorry Garth, maybe next time LA will have a real country station for you...

 

[recplayer]

WRONG!!!!!!! Saul drive himself????????

Do they make 4x4 rascal scooters???

I'm just sayin'!

 

[Rebafan]

As of just after 10AM this morning 1-27-08 they are back on the air... SO the listeners will get to hear the morning show review the concert.... :

 

[davideduardo]

So let me try to understand this...it's the biggest day in Los Angeles for country music since Garth retired. You're doing weeks and weeks of promotions/ticket giveaways and plan live broadcasts from the greatest arena in the country featuring the performer who is almost singly responsible for the popularity of modern country music and you're not prepared for any technical continency. If I was Ol Saul, I'd have had my chief tech living at the transmitter all week and would have made plans for as many engineers as I could find to provide back up assistance. And I've have made darn sure we had double triple and quadruple checked the back up systems/transmitters. While no one's saying what the problem is, I find this lapse in operational competency at such a critical time for the format in Los Angeles to be reprehensible.

If this happened to any other rated station in the market you'd be reading about management changes in the morning. Instead I predict laradio.com will write a loving tribute to the struggle of the valiant KKGO staff to get back on the air, how Saul personally drove his four wheel drive hybrid to the top of Mt. Wilson loaded with hot chocolate and Subway sandwiches (bought on trade) for his staff, how this "little station that could" was trying Soooooooooooooooo hard but nature wouldn't cooperate...

Sorry Garth, maybe next time LA will have a real country station for you...

I am leaving your post intact in the hopes that it will show the need to rethink "ready, fire, aim" posts in the middle of some of the worst storms in recent memory. That is what "reprehensible" is all about.

I checked with our DoE, Tom Koza, and he reports that a tremendous snow/ice storm hit Mt Wilson this past Thursday evening... by midnight, there was almost 3' of snowfall and +4" of radial ice on towers and antennas. High winds didn't help the situation, radomes and deicers didn't seem to keep up very well.

In the middle of this, John Davis of 105.1 was desperately attempting to gain access to the mountain and needed a snow cat or similar vehicle. They had a nice strong carrier, but no audio. There was much speculation that their STL dish had been destroyed by falling or freezing ice. 90.7 was also off the air, their C/E was unable to get within 250' of the site cluster near KLVE. Snow drifts exceeded 7' and completely covered doors, etc. Ice was falling from all towers and made things even more dangerous. None of us are sure how 105.1 got back on the air in the face of all this.

On our side, Mr. Koza reports he watched the KLVE reflected power go from <15 watts all the way up to 500 watts. Thankfully the transmitter did not shut down from VSWR. He could only assume that the main antenna radomes were absolutely shrouded in extremely thick ice and snow. On the KSCA side the antenna heaters couldn't keep up......normally <4 watts reflected turned into +75 watts. At one point an attempt by Tom to switch to one of the KLVE aux antennas, thinking that it might be a better antenna than the main.... was met with an immediate VSWR OL.

So, what we had was snow and icing that coated everyone's towers with inches of heavy ice that distorted antennas, put enormous weight on radomes, and had such rapid freezing and perciptation that heaters could not keep up with the icing. Falling ice can also cut through shields on coax fields and cause damage by falling on utility lines or connections. If all the antennas are severely iced, there is no way to stay on the air, no matter how many towers, antennae and transmitters you have. And if engineers can not even get up to Wilson, and the snow is 7 feet deep, nobody can ask them to risk their lives to do so. A piece of wind-borne tower ice can be lethal, by the way.

It's fortunate for the listener that most stations made it through. But to blame those that couldn't is unfair and unprofessional. Remember, this is the same storm that set off Avalanches, at the other side of the range, which killed several people.

 

[Kabrich]

Excuses, Excuses.

A Commercial Radio Station in Los Angeles with no Backup. Everyone knows the issues of Mt. Wilson and deals with it accordingly.

Sad.

Even sader that someone trys to justify it that should know better.

 

[davideduardo]

Excuses, Excuses.

A Commercial Radio Station in Los Angeles with no Backup. Everyone knows the issues of Mt. Wilson and deals with it accordingly.

Sad.

Even sader that someone trys to justify it that should know better.

You do not read very carefully, do you?

No matter how many backups you have, when there is weather like what is being seen up on Wilson, the problems are with the towers and antennae. 4" to 6" ice is on all the towers, antenna bays and radomes. Heaters can not compensate. Drifts are 7 feet deep. If ice hits both of a station's antennas, it's done untill the heaters can burn some ice off and get the SWR down.

There are many situations where even triple redundancy does not help... it's like with hurricanes in the Carribean... if your towers are out, you are off the air no matter how many transmitters and generators you have. Add to that the fact that the hill is nearly inaccessable or was for two days, and you have what insurance companies call "acts of God."

 

[romer979fm]

David...
you're wasting your time explaining this here: not only do some of the posters think every station
should have a magic back-up ready to go (and at a safe location)...a few actually believe they were
responsible for country returning to 105.1...because of a few phone calls to Saul.

 

[nmoore6676]

Excuses, Excuses.

A Commercial Radio Station in Los Angeles with no Backup. Everyone knows the issues of Mt. Wilson and deals with it accordingly.

Sad.

Even sader that someone trys to justify it that should know better.

Unfortunately as an independent operator who didn't inherit alternate sits through acquisitions Mt. Wilson FM, which I believe was the first FM on the mountain, doesn't have the real estate for a fully redundant backup. I would say that if the STL dish was the problem that some kind of T-1 or IDSN backup might have been prudent but any of that is hindsight now. Anyway David Eduardo is right on and he knows whereof he speaks.

 

[Rebafan]

From what I understand there was ice damage to the antenna and then the roof collapsed which allowed damage to the auxiliary transmitter for KKGO, there was NO WAY in the storm to get up there to fix it, Sunday an engineer from KROQ Fred Holub wen to Flint Peak and switched their auxiliary transmitter to 105.1 so the station could get back on the air, because of the actions of KROQ and Fred Holub (the engineer) the station was up long before it would have if they hadn't been able to get back on the air until the situation of snow and ice damage had been repaired at Mt. Wilson.

...a few actually believe they were responsible for country returning to 105.1...because of a few phone calls to Saul.

This is a redundant statement giving your opinion of what people think through statements made that the fans and listeners of country music played a major part in getting the word out, sharing the information researched that having the country genre on a station would be viable for that station.
I myself... in MY opinion which has been stated repeatedly is that YES, the fans did play a major part in getting the information to Saul in order for him to make a decision, just as the listeners have been almost the sole promotion for the station via word of mouth to let people know there was an FM station playing county music. The tailgate or non-tailgate parties, the people with bumperstickers on the cars, on their bags, on the butts etc. Retailers who are NOT advertisers on the station with GO COUNTRY banners in their show windows or along the fences of their place of business etc.
So as you have restated you OPINION... I have restated mine...


BACK TO THE TOPIC:
KKGO was NOT the only station with an issue, it was the only one that I was made aware of from numerous phone calls asking what had happened to the station and seeing posts on the countryboards.com in regards to the situation. From what laradio.com says KPFK was another station that was off the air and V-100 was operating for awhile from an auxiliary site not based on Mt. Wilson.
Not sure what happened with the other stations affected by the storms ...
From the listeners of KKGO:
A HUGE THANK YOU to KROQ for jumping in to help another station and another format out!!

 

[davideduardo]

Unfortunately as an independent operator who didn't inherit alternate sits through acquisitions Mt. Wilson FM, which I believe was the first FM on the mountain, doesn't have the real estate for a fully redundant backup. I would say that if the STL dish was the problem that some kind of T-1 or IDSN backup might have been prudent but any of that is hindsight now. Anyway David Eduardo is right on and he knows whereof he speaks.

I don't think that being independent has too much to do with this situation; many stations up there have single sites.

The issue is that at the "side" of the crest KKGO is on it appears from first reports that there was more drifting and icing. I don't know if KKGO has multiple antennas mounted on one tower, but many of us have such a setup... if there is enough ice to kick antenna one off, there is enough to kick antenna two off in many cases.

For those that obviously do not understand, an antenna is a very precise mechanical device, and the weight or contraction or torsion of ice changes its ability to transmit on the tuned channel. In more severe cases, the antenna will start rejecting power, which goes back to the transmitter due to the mismatch... to much rejected power, called standing wave, and the transmitter automatically powers down over and over until, if really bad, it turns off.

Microwave antennas for radio are often "basketweave" metal tubing, not solid dishes like your DirecTV dish. Any ice on the actual antenna (not the basketweave reflector) and you have no STL. Ice can bring down power and phone lines, too. Add several of these together, and no matter if you have spent millions on the site, you will be off the air.

Interesting sidebar: Nautel, who make nice transmitters, originally started making beacons and maritime stuff. With the weather in Canada being what it is (like Mt. Wilson today but for 5 months of the year), there was a need for very reliable broadcast gear. This is where the modular transmitter came from... keep on the air, even if the engineer can't get there till next week, even if modules are out or there is high reflected power. Lots of stations have no redundancy... except for KFI, what AM in LA has back-up towers?

 

[nmoore6676]

Unfortunately as an independent operator who didn't inherit alternate sits through acquisitions Mt. Wilson FM, which I believe was the first FM on the mountain, doesn't have the real estate for a fully redundant backup. I would say that if the STL dish was the problem that some kind of T-1 or IDSN backup might have been prudent but any of that is hindsight now. Anyway David Eduardo is right on and he knows whereof he speaks.

I don't think that being independent has too much to do with this situation; many stations up there have single sites.

The issue is that at the "side" of the crest KKGO is on it appears from first reports that there was more drifting and icing. I don't know if KKGO has multiple antennas mounted on one tower, but many of us have such a setup... if there is enough ice to kick antenna one off, there is enough to kick antenna two off in many cases.

For those that obviously do not understand, an antenna is a very precise mechanical device, and the weight or contraction or torsion of ice changes its ability to transmit on the tuned channel. In more severe cases, the antenna will start rejecting power, which goes back to the transmitter due to the mismatch... to much rejected power, called standing wave, and the transmitter automatically powers down over and over until, if really bad, it turns off.

Microwave antennas for radio are often "basketweave" metal tubing, not solid dishes like your DirecTV dish. Any ice on the actual antenna (not the basketweave reflector) and you have no STL. Ice can bring down power and phone lines, too. Add several of these together, and no matter if you have spent millions on the site, you will be off the air.

Interesting sidebar: Nautel, who make nice transmitters, originally started making beacons and maritime stuff. With the weather in Canada being what it is (like Mt. Wilson today but for 5 months of the year), there was a need for very reliable broadcast gear. This is where the modular transmitter came from... keep on the air, even if the engineer can't get there till next week, even if modules are out or there is high reflected power. Lots of stations have no redundancy... except for KFI, what AM in LA has back-up towers?

Being from Ohio I know all about icing and SWR. My understanding from other sources was that falling ice from the main antenna may have knocked the receiving antenna of the STL link off the tower or at least misaligned it.

From my experience with CATV microwave relays I know that a small movement of a receive, or transmit, dish equals no signal. My comment about real estate has to do with the fact that the CBS owned FM's have now located auxiliaries at the KROQ site so as an independent Mr. Levine did not have that option. I don't know if Clear Channel has any similar arrangements at the KYSR site, but they may want to look at just that.

However I give major credit for KROQ and the CBS facilities for sharing their wealth, there is still hope for those that feel that corporations are totally heartless.

 

[fybush]

Interesting sidebar: Nautel, who make nice transmitters, originally started making beacons and maritime stuff. With the weather in Canada being what it is (like Mt. Wilson today but for 5 months of the year), there was a need for very reliable broadcast gear. This is where the modular transmitter came from... keep on the air, even if the engineer can't get there till next week, even if modules are out or there is high reflected power. Lots of stations have no redundancy... except for KFI, what AM in LA has back-up towers?

I'm pretty sure KNX has an aux tower at its site in Torrance. KFWB used to have a longwire at its studios on Yucca that could be loaded up in an emergency, didn't it? And when KYPA went back to the Odd Fellows Hall rooftop, there was still a 1230 transmitter and diplexer up at the 1580 site that could be pressed into service if need be. (Anyone notice that KYPA has once again applied to move to the 1580 site, this time as a two-tower directional?)

 

[davideduardo]

I'm pretty sure KNX has an aux tower at its site in Torrance. KFWB used to have a longwire at its studios on Yucca that could be loaded up in an emergency, didn't it? And when KYPA went back to the Odd Fellows Hall rooftop, there was still a 1230 transmitter and diplexer up at the 1580 site that could be pressed into service if need be. (Anyone notice that KYPA has once again applied to move to the 1580 site, this time as a two-tower directional?)

KFI, of course, was "saved" by the short tower at its main site. KNX, last I saw it, had a very, very small tower near the transmitter building. The Yucca KFWB antenna was gone by the time I worked in the "neighborhood" unless it was very short and low!

Other than those and the migrant KYPA, I don't think any LA AM station has an auxiliary tower. Many directionals have the ability to use a single tower in non.DA mode, but that's it for the highest revenue market in the US and maybe the world.

I wonder how many of the (former) 1 A and 1 B clears have a spare tower or provision for a longwire?

Then there are the handful of dual site day and night operations, which would qualify as backups each for the other. The only good thing about AM is that it is possible to tune an AM transmitter into nearly anything... when a truck brought down the tower of WUNO in 1979, we did a slope from the 70 feet of tower still standing to a tree, fed it in an inverted L fashion, and were on the air in less than a day.... with fairly decent coverage since the groud was still there!

In all this discussion, the heroes are the engineers who put these strange devices together under the worst of conditions. My hat is always off to them!