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KNWN audio question
- Thread starter Treehouse SWL
- Start date
Far too many stations, both AM, FM and their internet streams, are grossly over-processed.
For AM stations, it's necessary to process the audio enough to help rise above the impulse noise.
For FM stations, excessive processing can actually create problems, causing an increase in audible distortion in the presence of multipath. Too much processing also drives the listeners away due to listener fatigue, the constant assault on the ears.
Proper processing can give the station a acceptably loud signal while sounding like there is a bit of dynamic range.
I'm confounded as to why most station streams are, likewise, over-processed. It's digital. The noise floor isn't a factor.
That's my 2¢ worth.
For AM stations, it's necessary to process the audio enough to help rise above the impulse noise.
For FM stations, excessive processing can actually create problems, causing an increase in audible distortion in the presence of multipath. Too much processing also drives the listeners away due to listener fatigue, the constant assault on the ears.
Proper processing can give the station a acceptably loud signal while sounding like there is a bit of dynamic range.
I'm confounded as to why most station streams are, likewise, over-processed. It's digital. The noise floor isn't a factor.
That's my 2¢ worth.
Same with HD Radio, Should not be so heavy handed on the processing but it is now what is expected and just the norm.
A funny story I once heard was that Stevie Wonder couldn't figure out why his songs sounded different on the radio... he liked the sound... found out and then bought his own optimod for his home studio so he could record his songs sounding like they do on the radio! Of course that processing went to the records and then the radio stations and ran through their processing also. And here we are.
A funny story I once heard was that Stevie Wonder couldn't figure out why his songs sounded different on the radio... he liked the sound... found out and then bought his own optimod for his home studio so he could record his songs sounding like they do on the radio! Of course that processing went to the records and then the radio stations and ran through their processing also. And here we are.
That trend started when processing manufacturers started selling all in one processors. Same processing for both, means if one is squashed to sh*t, then so is the other. The idea is to save money, and reduce the noticeable difference when the radio switches between modes. Problem is; we still have out of step PD's and GM's that want radio to sound like during the loudness wars of the 70's and 80's. All that does is unintentionally drive listeners to alternate sources like streaming and personal playlists via their phones.
Stevie actually owns KJLH-FM. Enjoyed having dinner with KJLH's Chief Engineer about four years ago at NAB. He had some wonderful stories about Stevie's take on audio as it involves radio.
For the most part, I disagree that processing is overdone, though I can give some examples of where it has been so. I think KPLZ is, or should I say was, the best sounding station in Seattle. I think the only times I've really heard bad audio were when KMCQ had been on for about a year when it was all muffled, and the audio on 92.5 in 2013. It seems they've cleaned up their processing a bit since then. I don't think 106.1 sounded great at that time either.
Maybe you have never heard really good processing. Most stations are squashed to death. It's possible to process the audio so that it has "apparent" dynamics. It's a matter of how much compression, the compression ratio and at what speed.
All we use for processing is a dbx compressor/limitor and the processing inside the BW Transmitter. One of these days, I'll get around to posting a sample.
Several years ago I was at a station transmitter site (A station I did contract work for) and noticed the processing AGC was slamming hard, the sound was pretty bad. I suggested to the powers that be that I could easily fix their sound... Their response was that such a thing would take several meetings of everyone who had a say in anything. One day I turned that AGC down from around 20 to 5-7 db and the sound really opened up. The DJ's started asking what happened, suddenly they could hear the individual instruments and drums! They were hearing stuff in songs they never heard before. I then admitted I did the change on my own and could put it back if management insisted on having meetings. They didn't need any meetings and left it open.
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But you're a radio nerd, who thinks processing is a thing. The majority of radio listeners don't know audio processing exists, but just whether their favorite genre of music or speech sounds fatiguing or 'strange.'
A very wise DOE told me years ago, that the best processed audio is when listeners can't tell it's being processed.
Absolutely correct. That was my point.
The announcer usually sounds about right. Recorded content, including commercials, tend to be quite low. That sounds like processor input to me.
I've also noticed some of their mics don't sound all that great since they moved. Cheap? Lack of processing?
I've also noticed some of their mics don't sound all that great since they moved. Cheap? Lack of processing?
The same engineer takes care of both of them and is working on that problem.
Yah, it is pretty bad. The owners are aware of that, too.
That translator is in a physical location that has some challenging problems... being in the bottom of a bowl doesn't help. The feed to the transmitter also has issues, given its proximity to it's host's 27,500 watt daytime signal.
The audio issues could be resolved. Rather, they've elected to look at a couple of better locations, then fix everything at once.
That translator is in a physical location that has some challenging problems... being in the bottom of a bowl doesn't help. The feed to the transmitter also has issues, given its proximity to it's host's 27,500 watt daytime signal.
The audio issues could be resolved. Rather, they've elected to look at a couple of better locations, then fix everything at once.
Quite true. I seem to notice more over station's streams than I do over the air, though that could be because the number of stations I listen to online is significantly grater than the number I've heard over the air. The biggest issue I have with streams is that lots of stations have the volume cranked so high that I have to turn it down in order to hear my screen reader. The biggest offenders tend to have it so loud that if the player has an independent volume control, I have to lower it all the way to like 30% just to have it mostly tolerable.
Processing for streams is a whole other thing. Usually done, if at all, with a card in a PC. Not ever the same as the audio processed at the transmitter site of an OTA station. Then you have ad insertion at whole other locations with different gain structure and who knows what processing.
That's because other than limitations of the codec, unlike radio there are no rules or limitations with streaming audio.
What confounds me, are these people trying to stream music, who insist on connecting up old Orban Optimod's, Harris limiters, or whatever they can grab off of EBay. There's a reason those processors aren't in use anymore, including needless distortion and especially noise. Hey I've got an idea; let's trash our stream audio so it sounds like something from the 70's! Hold my beer Cletus...
There is an owner of several stations in the rural parts of north Georgia and eastern Tennessee that has all of his streams fed directly from the automation with no processing. The music sounds great, but not everything is recorded at the same level. I called him up to let him know the drop in weather forecast from the TN Network was so low I had to turn up the volume to hear it on the stream. Over the air (AM and FM) I the processing took care of the difference in the levels. He just said that he prefers a better quality stream for the music.
There are also many examples out there (usually of small market stations) of a station sounding completely “flat” over-the-air, but fine over a web stream. I assume that can be chalked up to the equipment being used in the audio chain.
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