KNX, KCBS and KTWV: speculation

[RBRadioWaves]

Call this insane, but I'll bite on what I think is going to happen to CBS this year.

I think that CBS will lure Mark and Karen from KOST 103.5, evict Jack from 93.1, swing the axe at the Wave and launch a new AC to tackle KOST. And on the station that remains between Jack and the Wave... KNX-FM! All news.

The only problems would involve K-Earth 101, which shares some overlap with AC stations.

 

[davideduardo]

Call this insane, but I'll bite on what I think is going to happen to CBS this year.

I think that CBS will lure Mark and Karen from KOST 103.5, evict Jack from 93.1, swing the axe at the Wave and launch a new AC to tackle KOST. And on the station that remains between Jack and the Wave... KNX-FM! All news.

The only problems would involve K-Earth 101, which shares some overlap with AC stations.

KCBS-FM is the 5th highest biller in LA, so unless it is on a severe decline a change there is unlikely. The Wave is AC... it's an AC flavor, and can easily be nudged more mainstream if that was the goal.

Keep in mind that changing a format radically means losing nearly all of a station's billing, and starting from zero with big start-up costs and initial losses. It takes a major success to recoup the loss, and even then the cost of trading a lower performer for a better opportunity might not pay out in many years. That's likely why The Wave modified its smooth jazz format to an AC variety because they were able to preserve much of the revenue stream while they slightly lowered the median age of the listeners.

As to sharing, we have to recognize that in the PPM world the average listener uses 6 stations in a week's time. Taking the 25-54 on KRTH as an example, these stations, each, share a quarter or more of the cume: KOST, KBIG, KIIS, KCBS (FM) KAMP, KLOS, KPWR, KYSR, KSWD, KHHT and KLVE. In the next tier, from 15% of the KRTH cume to around 25% are KXOS, KRCD, KLAX, KXOL, KSCA, KROQ and KTWV.

The issue with KNX and all news is that the format has not performed well in LA for the better part of two decades. Many posts here have ventured opinions as to why news in LA... and news in the Sunbelt... does badly, but it would take quite a shake-up to justify putting it on FM. But then again, there is a put-talk-on-FM fever, so anything is possible.

 

[RBRadioWaves]

Call this insane, but I'll bite on what I think is going to happen to CBS this year.

I think that CBS will lure Mark and Karen from KOST 103.5, evict Jack from 93.1, swing the axe at the Wave and launch a new AC to tackle KOST. And on the station that remains between Jack and the Wave... KNX-FM! All news.

The only problems would involve K-Earth 101, which shares some overlap with AC stations.

KCBS-FM is the 5th highest biller in LA, so unless it is on a severe decline a change there is unlikely. The Wave is AC... it's an AC flavor, and can easily be nudged more mainstream if that was the goal.

Keep in mind that changing a format radically means losing nearly all of a station's billing, and starting from zero with big start-up costs and initial losses. It takes a major success to recoup the loss, and even then the cost of trading a lower performer for a better opportunity might not pay out in many years. That's likely why The Wave modified its smooth jazz format to an AC variety because they were able to preserve much of the revenue stream while they slightly lowered the median age of the listeners.

As to sharing, we have to recognize that in the PPM world the average listener uses 6 stations in a week's time. Taking the 25-54 on KRTH as an example, these stations, each, share a quarter or more of the cume: KOST, KBIG, KIIS, KCBS (FM) KAMP, KLOS, KPWR, KYSR, KSWD, KHHT and KLVE. In the next tier, from 15% of the KRTH cume to around 25% are KXOS, KRCD, KLAX, KXOL, KSCA, KROQ and KTWV.

The issue with KNX and all news is that the format has not performed well in LA for the better part of two decades. Many posts here have ventured opinions as to why news in LA... and news in the Sunbelt... does badly, but it would take quite a shake-up to justify putting it on FM. But then again, there is a put-talk-on-FM fever, so anything is possible.

I agree with many of your points, but if I may state a few rebuttals.

First off, Jack is among the lowest rated CBS stations in Los Angeles. And, being a alternative-leaning classic rock station, the station has overlap with K-Earth 101 on one side, and KROQ on the other side. It also is being tackled by Star 98.7 and KBIG 104.3.

Second off, when people think of "The Wave", they think of easy jazz, which does not bill well, DESPITE the station changing it's music to a fusion between AC and Jazz. I will be honest, though, I prefer it over KOST 103.5 (the music on both are softer then a typical AC, but KOST is trying to be more like the Clear Channel, AC flagship, WLTW, which is on the cusp of rhythmic AC. Meanwhile, KTWV is more like KOST back in the old days, except with Jazz music). A true AC would probably bill better.

And, with KFI and KABC rumored to go to FM, better to be the first one out of the gate. Execs think that most americans that are attractive to advertisers only think that AM is a time of day. And, we all know that the amount of HD radios in operation is low.

 

[davideduardo]

First off, Jack is among the lowest rated CBS stations in Los Angeles. And, being a alternative-leaning classic rock station, the station has overlap with K-Earth 101 on one side, and KROQ on the other side. It also is being tackled by Star 98.7 and KBIG 104.3.

Jack is not, in sales demos, the lowest rated. KTWV and, particularly, KRTH are. It's a pretty consistent mid-range top 10 station in 25-54. While it was off in November and December, it's trailing average is about 7th in the demo. Not something you mess with.

As said, all stations share "big time" in PPM. The top sharers with Jack, all over 30% cume sharers, are KBIG, KYSR, KIIS, KLOS, KOST, KRTH and KROQ and even AMP. It's lowest overlaps are with sister stations... so its function is also that of keeping the first four down!

Second off, when people think of "The Wave", they think of easy jazz, which does not bill well, DESPITE the station changing it's music to a fusion between AC and Jazz.

Listeners don't think about billing. Advertisers look at formats secondarily. As long as The Wave delivers more 25-54 than the prior format, generates good cash flow and serves a cluster role of keeping the competitors down, it is more useful dead than alive.

And, with KFI and KABC rumored to go to FM, better to be the first one out of the gate. Execs think that most americans that are attractive to advertisers only think that AM is a time of day. And, we all know that the amount of HD radios in operation is low.

Putting KABC, a deficient product, on FM, is a violation of the "Move to FM Act." To take an AM to FM it first has to be doing really well on AM. Not the case here.

KFI may or may not protect its franchise. But that is a talker, and a top rated one. KNX is a newser, with about 15th rank in 25-54... what it might do on FM is speculation but LA is not a good news radio market. If anything were sacrificed, it would be based on billings and 25-54 or 18-49 performance (CBS is a TV company, where 18-49 reigns). That means KRTH and then KTWV are the weakest, not Jack which is the 13th highest biller in the entire country.

 

[radiojomo]

I would also like to add this: Kevin Weatherly is a world class program director. He has transformed the idea of Jack FM as an endless random music jukebox to a very well targeted and composed Rock radio station.
As far as Jack's alternative lean towards classic rock being a bad thing, I think that the Alternative tracks make the station a little more appealing to younger listeners than KLOS and KSWD.

 

[wdb2003]

I didnt know Kevin handled KCBS FM. I have to admit Jack does play some good 80's music. I tune in every now and then.

 

[AM FM listener]

I see KTWV continuing to move toward mainstream AC to further lower its demos. Jack is doing too well in the key demos to change to All News anytime soon. However, Jack may change call letters to KNX-FM and give its SF sister the KCBS-FM calls to they can be KCBS-AM & FM. I am surprised that hasn't already happened since Jack has no use for its call letters as they are. Meanwhile, KNX-AM seems to be hanging in there, ratings-wise, especially for an AM station.

 

[recto101]

I see KTWV continuing to move toward mainstream AC to further lower its demos. Jack is doing too well in the key demos to change to All News anytime soon. However, Jack may change call letters to KNX-FM and give its SF sister the KCBS-FM calls to they can be KCBS-AM & FM. I am surprised that hasn't already happened since Jack has no use for its call letters as they are. Meanwhile, KNX-AM seems to be hanging in there, ratings-wise, especially for an AM station.

You mean Jack FM KCBS will just keep the format brand Jack but the call letters will just go to 106.9FM San Francisco? I doubt that! There was a KCBS-FM 97.3 in SFO but that flopped in 1982. But remember New Years Week when KKSF moved to 910 AM and 103.7 Fm SFO kept the format as Classic hits as KOSF. and syndicated talk KNEW moved to 960. I wish KCBS-FM moved to 106.9FM SFO so they can just drop the KFRC-FM calls on the hourly ID. look ask the Public in SFO about KCBS they will say I use 106.9FM KCBS More than 740 AM.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

I see KTWV continuing to move toward mainstream AC to further lower its demos. Jack is doing too well in the key demos to change to All News anytime soon. However, Jack may change call letters to KNX-FM and give its SF sister the KCBS-FM calls to they can be KCBS-AM & FM. I am surprised that hasn't already happened since Jack has no use for its call letters as they are. Meanwhile, KNX-AM seems to be hanging in there, ratings-wise, especially for an AM station.

You mean Jack FM KCBS will just keep the format brand Jack but the call letters will just go to 106.9FM San Francisco? I doubt that! There was a KCBS-FM 97.3 in SFO but that flopped in 1982. But remember New Years Week when KKSF moved to 910 AM and 103.7 Fm SFO kept the format as Classic hits as KOSF. and syndicated talk KNEW moved to 960. I wish KCBS-FM moved to 106.9FM SFO so they can just drop the KFRC-FM calls on the hourly ID. look ask the Public in SFO about KCBS they will say I use 106.9FM KCBS More than 740 AM.

You care, but I doubt that the public does.

 

[calguy]

As sad as it is for those who love radio and it's history the truth is that call-letters mean almost nothing now days. KFRC is only mentioned once an hour. Perhaps it makes for a sloppy sounding ID, but most people could care less. I do know that when KFRC became Magic 61 RKO was planning a call letter change. When word got out there was an outcry from the people of the Bay Area and RKO backed off. But that was over 20 years ago. Today, who knows? I don't think it means that much, but CBS could be keeping those call letters simply because it's easier, and yes, it's just not that big a deal...

Personally I wish KFRC would be revived. If CBS brought in Jhani Kaye, or the WCBS FM PD to get it set up and off the ground, KFRC as an oldies station could once again be a success in SF. All it takes is someone with radio smarts and the vision to see what could be if done correctly.

Here in LA the KCBS call letters mean nothing at all for JACK. They only use them once an hour, so why not go back to KNX-FM? Ultimately I'd like to see that happen. You could move the KCBS FM call letters back to SF. But I would park the KFRC call letters "somewhere" so they don't end up in some small town a thousand miles away.

 

[recto101]

As sad as it is for those who love radio and it's history the truth is that call-letters mean almost nothing now days. KFRC is only mentioned once an hour. Perhaps it makes for a sloppy sounding ID, but most people could care less. I do know that when KFRC became Magic 61 RKO was planning a call letter change. When word got out there was an outcry from the people of the Bay Area and RKO backed off. But that was over 20 years ago. Today, who knows? I don't think it means that much, but CBS could be keeping those call letters simply because it's easier, and yes, it's just not that big a deal...

Personally I wish KFRC would be revived. If CBS brought in Jhani Kaye, or the WCBS FM PD to get it set up and off the ground, KFRC as an oldies station could once again be a success in SF. All it takes is someone with radio smarts and the vision to see what could be if done correctly.

Here in LA the KCBS call letters mean nothing at all for JACK. They only use them once an hour, so why not go back to KNX-FM? Ultimately I'd like to see that happen. You could move the KCBS FM call letters back to SF. But I would park the KFRC call letters "somewhere" so they don't end up in some small town a thousand miles away.

How about the Bay Area Radio Museum taking ownership of the KFRC call letters. Look at KABL those call letters went to Bay Area museum after 92.1FM Diablo Valley flopped. Well I hope KFRC will live on as just a web station or they can give the KFRC-FM calls to Clear Channel for 98.1 FM because if you look at 98.1FM the Pop/R&B/CHR Classics playlist resembles KFRC in the 1960's and 1980's and to a certain extent KMEL and KXXX in the early 1990's but 98.1 will keep the KISS Brand. Look at KOSF-FM 103.7 its Classic rock and less oldies. I guess KOSF can be CC's equivilent of Jack FM.

 

[MarioMania]

Does Call's mean anything this Gen??

Like everyone said put KNX-FM but keep everything the same, None will care if it KNX or KCBS-FM

Put KCBS-FM on 106.9 SF and Retire the KFRC Calls

 

[Neel]

I wasn't aware that a station can go back to three letter calls?? I thought it had to be four letters now

 

[fybush]

I wasn't aware that a station can go back to three letter calls?? I thought it had to be four letters now

You can't get a new three-letter call, but a sister station to an existing three-letter call can use that as its base call. There's a new "WBZ-FM" in Boston as of 2009, a new "WJZ" and "WJZ-FM" in Baltimore (associated with WJZ-TV) as of the mid-aughts, and so on.

But having said that: if CBS hasn't bothered shuffling the calls on KFRC-FM and KCBS-FM by now, why would they do it in 2012? Listeners know those stations by their slogans of "KCBS" and "Jack," respectively, and the PPM encoders ensure there's never any question about the proper attribution of listening. In San Francisco, I don't believe the "KFRC-FM" calls even appear in Arbitron, since 106.9 listening is combined with KCBS(AM) to appear as a single line.

 

[davideduardo]

I wasn't aware that a station can go back to three letter calls?? I thought it had to be four letters now

The sister station of an active 3-letter call can get authorization to use the 3-letter calls, too (with the appropriate suffic, of course)

 

[KTN Corp]

Does Call's mean anything this Gen??

Like everyone said put KNX-FM but keep everything the same, None will care if it KNX or KCBS-FM

Put KCBS-FM on 106.9 SF and Retire the KFRC Calls

I'm waiting for KNX to change calls to KCBS and KCBS to change calls to KFRC. KCBS, KCBS-FM, KCBS-TV Los Angeles would create good synergy in branding in the Los Angeles market. The only other scenario is to move KNX's newsradio format to KCBS-FM as either as a stand alone operation (kill the AM station and sell the copper and land) or as an AM/FM simulcast.

 

[davideduardo]

Does Call's mean anything this Gen??

Like everyone said put KNX-FM but keep everything the same, None will care if it KNX or KCBS-FM

Put KCBS-FM on 106.9 SF and Retire the KFRC Calls

I'm waiting for KNX to change calls to KCBS and KCBS to change calls to KFRC. KCBS, KCBS-FM, KCBS-TV Los Angeles would create good synergy in branding in the Los Angeles market. The only other scenario is to move KNX's newsradio format to KCBS-FM as either as a stand alone operation (kill the AM station and sell the copper and land) or as an AM/FM simulcast.

You're kidding about killing off LA's fifth-highest biller which has much lower expenses than LA's 7th highest biller, KNX?

Even today, an operating 50 kw non-directional AM is worth $30 million or so, while the copper is worth a few thousand and the land a couple of million at most.

 

[lauu]

Actually the KNX transmitter site is "land poor". CBS owns a 100 foot square under the main tower and a 50 foot square under the aux tower. In the late 1960's, the company sold off the frontages on 190th and Hawthorn Ave's to private parties. The rest was sold to the city of Torrance for $1.00 under the condition that it be nothing but a park. Easements and C, C, and R's cover the guy anchors, ground system, and any construction on the previously owned properties.

 

[davideduardo]

Actually the KNX transmitter site is "land poor". CBS owns a 100 foot square under the main tower and a 50 foot square under the aux tower. In the late 1960's, the company sold off the frontages on 190th and Hawthorn Ave's to private parties. The rest was sold to the city of Torrance for $1.00 under the condition that it be nothing but a park. Easements and C, C, and R's cover the guy anchors, ground system, and any construction on the previously owned properties.

Interesting. Like many sites these days, the land is being used for other things too. KFI has a warehouse complex on its site, as does KTNQ. In Phoenix, KTAR's site has a shopping center over the ground system!

So the real value of the station is the facility (one of only three like it in CA) and the existing format with over $30 million in billings. In no case would shutting it off be the right exit strategy.

 

[KTN Corp]

Does Call's mean anything this Gen??

Like everyone said put KNX-FM but keep everything the same, None will care if it KNX or KCBS-FM

Put KCBS-FM on 106.9 SF and Retire the KFRC Calls

I'm waiting for KNX to change calls to KCBS and KCBS to change calls to KFRC. KCBS, KCBS-FM, KCBS-TV Los Angeles would create good synergy in branding in the Los Angeles market. The only other scenario is to move KNX's newsradio format to KCBS-FM as either as a stand alone operation (kill the AM station and sell the copper and land) or as an AM/FM simulcast.

You're kidding about killing off LA's fifth-highest biller which has much lower expenses than LA's 7th highest biller, KNX?

Even today, an operating 50 kw non-directional AM is worth $30 million or so, while the copper is worth a few thousand and the land a couple of million at most.

Any opinions on changing the KNX calls to KCBS and finding new ones for the SF station?