KNX Los Angeles and KCBS San Francisco to Simulcast Overnight Programming

[K.M. Richards]

Andy, I know you and I know you've been there.

And although I said it is "unlikely" that a major news story could break overnight, that doesn't equate to "impossible". Hell, I remember the Northridge quake quite well -- I was living only about three miles due east of the epicenter, and only escaped with minor damage because the energy traveled on northeast to southwest and northwest to southeast lines -- and I also remember the first thing I did was tune in to KFWB, which ended up simulcasting their coverage on over a half dozen stations (the late John Brooks almost got tongue tied doing all the legal IDs at the top of the hour).

But have we had another such major story break in the overnight hours since? Nope. We have even managed to go more than 30 years without a repeat of Northridge at any time of day.

I have to believe that there is some kind of plan in place if and when something might happen, but the odds are that the plan won't get implemented.

 

[Andy Ludlum]

But have we had another such major story break in the overnight hours since? Nope. We have even managed to go more than 30 years without a repeat of Northridge at any time of day.

I have to believe that there is some kind of plan in place if and when something might happen, but the odds are that the plan won't get implemented.

Unfortunately that’s the misguided logic people apply to natural disasters and things like “100 Year Storms,” which by definition doesn’t preclude “back-to-back” 100 year events.

There’s no comfort in noting there hasn’t been another Northridge quake in 30 years. While predictions are nonsense, there’s nothing I hear from earthquake experts that says we should be less worried about a major earthquake, or that we, including all news radio stations, should be prepared. One WILL happen.

The 1994 quake remains the single most significant “overnight-breaking” event in modern LA history, largely because of its surprise timing and widespread impact.
Since then, wildfires — especially those igniting or accelerating overnight — have arguably become the primary “major overnight stories,” with the 2017 Creek Fire, 2018 Woolsey Fire, and 2025 Palisades & Eaton Fires among the worst. Ongoing wildfire risks and periodic ignitions under favorable conditions (winds, drought, etc.) will continue to be a chronic “overnight danger” in LA.

I stand by my comments. I don’t care how they mangle and confuse weather and traffic and legal IDs. I think this is misguided, short term thinking by people with zero news experience that will sadly backfire on KNX.

 

[Yabadabado1]

I wonder if there's a point in the U.S. where KCBS and CFZM [Zoomer radio out of Toronto, Canada] or CBX out of Edmonton beginning fighting it out with each other's signals. I know I've picked up CFZM in the middle of Tennessee and listened to it all the way back to Ohio except for a section of TN I went through that had a small AM station on 740 that wiped it out for a bit. Nighttime 50,000 watt stations also: KTRH Houston, TX. WYGM in Orlando, FL. The last one is the one that about blew me out of my car when I tried picking up CFZM in Florida one night on I-4. KCBS might have been one of the stations I picked up on my old Chevy II Nova back in the mid 70s. Sitting in driveway DXing one night,only car radio I had where I picked up KOA out of Denver and a station out of LA & San Francisco. It's sort of interesting that most of the station's signal at night is nulled to the north & northeast but CFZM isn't nulled much to the south or southwest.

 

[ted chittenden]

It's sort of interesting that most of the station's signal at night is nulled to the north & northeast but CFZM isn't nulled much to the south or southwest.

If I remember correctly, 740 is a Canadian clear channel frequency with CFZM being the primary clear channel station up there; hence no directional requirements for it.

 

[PTBoardOp93]

Northridge earthquake (4:30 A.M.) comes to mind. It is a shame that something big, bad, and maybe life threatening IS MOST CERTAINLY going to happen overnight and KNX will not be in position to cover it during those early, critical moments when listeners are looking for information and help. The clowns behind this are just rolling the dice, fooling themselves that they can cover a Los Angeles emergency “remotely.”

At 4:30 am, the morning crew that is supposed to go on at 5 will already be at work, and would simply start their shift early.

Other things to keep in mind: KCBS is very capable of covering an earthquake. It's one of the easiest things in the world to cover.
Your anchors will be repeating the same thing every few minutes as new audiences join, adding details as they arrive: "A magnitude 5.8 earthquake was centered near Irvine at 3:47 this morning According to US Geological Survey, it's the largest quake to strike California in 6 years. So far damage reports are minimal. SoCal Gas reminds customers to check their gas lines and to call their emergency hotline if you smell gas. LA Unified Schools has announced there is no damage to its buildings and classes will continue as scheduled today. NewsRadio KNX reporter Stan Jones spoke to a father in Irvine whose porch collapsed: <soundbite>"

KCBS is also capable of forwarding wildfire evacuation notices, if such things happen. I'm with you, that the local authorities are unlikely to issue notices like that in the wee hours, no matter how necessary they might be.

I stand by my comments. I don’t care how they mangle and confuse weather and traffic and legal IDs. I think this is misguided, short term thinking by people with zero news experience that will sadly backfire on KNX.

What KNX knows is that they have already lost. The job of the executives at Audacy is not to make KNX Newsradio Great Again, it is to keep it profitable even as the business fails.

People who don't listen to Newsradio aren't going to suddenly think of KNX when there's an earthquake. You don't have to look back too far for evidence.

When the Palisades fire happened this winter, the audience for KNX surged, but only in the 55+ demo that already listens a lot.
In 25-54 and 18-34, very little change was recorded by Nielsen. KNX gained a few tenths, not much different than the Nielsen wobble you get every month. Neither KFI nor KNX were in the top 10 in 25-54 or 18-34 during the book that contained the fires.

 

[TheBigA]

We’ve all slept through earthquakes. But if a big one hits, the lights don’t work, your phone and computer are useless, where do you go?

Back to bed. There's nothing you can do. If the big one destroys the radio station or topples the tower, what do you do?

But - this is the 2nd largest city in the U.S. - there’s no excuse for KNX to punt on a major overnight emergency.

They haven't punted on an emergency because it hasn't happened. You're making a lot of assumptions that there's nobody in the building or they haven't thought about the various options. We've already listed lots of ways they can still handle these things.

Meanwhile, as I said, the responsibility was officially given to DHS and emergency officials. It they screw up, and don't have a plan, the radio station isn't going to do the job for them. Unless the emergency happens near the radio station, no amount of live staffing will know about it until they get the information from either the USGS or the police or some outside agency. KNX doesn't have reporters all over the county at 3 AM waiting for an earthquake. Nobody does. The gas and electric companies don't staff that way.

 

[TheBigA]

To put this in context, there was a hearing yesterday on capitol hill where the discussion was about the music industry getting a new performance right for radio airplay. The radio representative at the hearing tried to bring up public service and emergency information, and was shouted down by senators who just want money for artists.

Radio Demonized In One-Sided Music Fairness Debate In DC - Radio Ink

A Senate hearing on the American Music Fairness Act turned combative as lawmakers cut off NAB testimony and Gene Simmons delivered a chaotic defense of new radio royalties.

radioink.com

This royalty is being pushed by senators and reps from California. It sounds like radio is going to have another financial challenge ahead of it. Congress doesn't see radio's role as providing emergency information. They see them as businesses that are making money off the back of artists. KNX is owned by one of those companies, and if this happens, it will affect the news budget as well as the music budget.

 

[Mark Roberts]

I wonder if there's a point in the U.S. where KCBS and CFZM [Zoomer radio out of Toronto, Canada] or CBX out of Edmonton beginning fighting it out with each other's signals. I know I've picked up CFZM in the middle of Tennessee and listened to it all the way back to Ohio except for a section of TN I went through that had a small AM station on 740 that wiped it out for a bit. Nighttime 50,000 watt stations also: KTRH Houston, TX. WYGM in Orlando, FL.

If I remember correctly, 740 is a Canadian clear channel frequency with CFZM being the primary clear channel station up there; hence no directional requirements for it.

Ted is correct. When the CBC had that channel (as CBL), it was the primary station on the channel. Anyone else on the channel at night had to protect its coverage. Hence at night: the KCBS pattern that focuses mostly on California, the KTRH pattern that shoots out most of the nighttime power to the Gulf of Mexico, the KVOR pattern that's north-south along the Colorado Front Range, and the KRMG pattern that looks kind of like a flattened pancake going east-west. That's not to mention stations in Texarkana; Cortez, Colorado; Carlsbad, New Mexico.

The 740 frequency in mid-Missouri at night was dominated by CBL in the 1980s, but there was always interference to the signal. In the St. Louis area, the east side of the state, sometimes you could get CBL without so much interference but, even back then, I don't think most listeners would have put up with that kind of reception quality.

At KTRH, we frequently got letters from missionaries and other ex-pats in Central America, expressing their appreciation for our nighttime news broadcasts. But you couldn't get it anywhere north of Conroe.

 

[Andy Ludlum]

At 4:30 am, the morning crew that is supposed to go on at 5 will already be at work, and would simply start their shift early.

My point was that the timing of a major earthquake is inherently unpredictable.

Other things to keep in mind: KCBS is very capable of covering an earthquake. It's one of the easiest things in the world to cover.
Your anchors will be repeating the same thing every few minutes as new audiences join, adding details as they arrive: "A magnitude 5.8 earthquake was centered near Irvine at 3:47 this morning According to US Geological Survey, it's the largest quake to strike California in 6 years. So far damage reports are minimal. SoCal Gas reminds customers to check their gas lines and to call their emergency hotline if you smell gas. LA Unified Schools has announced there is no damage to its buildings and classes will continue as scheduled today. NewsRadio KNX reporter Stan Jones spoke to a father in Irvine whose porch collapsed: <soundbite>"

I can only speak from the perspective of someone who has actually run major market newsrooms, including two in Los Angeles. I question if you are speaking from experience when you say earthquakes are "one of the easiest things in the world to cover." Yes, your moderate 5.8 example might be easier to cover from San Francisco. But what if a major quake has cut off communication to Los Angeles. What if the studio/newsroom in Los Angeles has lost internet capability? Have you been in a modern newsroom with the internet down for a significant period of time? I have and it is not pretty. It is hard to beat having an experienced anchor with local knowledge in the control room and a resourceful team to back him/her up.

KCBS is also capable of forwarding wildfire evacuation notices, if such things happen. I'm with you, that the local authorities are unlikely to issue notices like that in the wee hours, no matter how necessary they might be. What KNX knows is that they have already lost. The job of the executives at Audacy is not to make KNX Newsradio Great Again, it is to keep it profitable even as the business fails. People who don't listen to Newsradio aren't going to suddenly think of KNX when there's an earthquake. You don't have to look back too far for evidence. When the Palisades fire happened this winter, the audience for KNX surged, but only in the 55+ demo that already listens a lot. In 25-54 and 18-34, very little change was recorded by Nielsen. KNX gained a few tenths, not much different than the Nielsen wobble you get every month. Neither KFI nor KNX were in the top 10 in 25-54 or 18-34 during the book that contained the fires.

I don't have full ratings access anymore. But I would hesitate to say younger demos didn't alter habits for a day or several days during the fire just by looking at monthly PPM data. Also LA is so large, as bad as the fires were, many people in the listening area were unaffected. Of course, 25-54 has been tough for KNX for years. But the past has shown if you fail to serve that infrequent emergency listener with useful, relevant information, they will be even less likely to come back the next time.

 

[Andy Ludlum]

They haven't punted on an emergency because it hasn't happened.

Correct. I'm warning what I fear will happen.

You're making a lot of assumptions that there's nobody in the building or they haven't thought about the various options. We've already listed lots of ways they can still handle these things. Meanwhile, as I said, the responsibility was officially given to DHS and emergency officials. It they screw up, and don't have a plan, the radio station isn't going to do the job for them. Unless the emergency happens near the radio station, no amount of live staffing will know about it until they get the information from either the USGS or the police or some outside agency. KNX doesn't have reporters all over the county at 3 AM waiting for an earthquake. Nobody does. The gas and electric companies don't staff that way.

I never assumed there was no one in the building. I'm speaking from my experience. The first minutes of a major emergency are chaotic. Normal systems may be down. Normal contacts like police, fire, USGS might be unavailable. In additon to covering the news, the inside team is trying to contact as many people as they can for help - and they may not be able to reach them. Stations in major emergencies have had to use their air to dispatch reporters and call for staff to come in. News stations like KNX maintain RF (two-way) systems because they are a reliable way to get on the air with a system that is not internet or cellular based - and compromised in the emergency. And all this is assuming the connection/communication with San Francisco functioning. Of couse there must be some sort of plan to take over local control in a major emergency. My experience is that would be much harder to do if you weren't starting out with an experienced local anchor at the controls.

 

[Mark Roberts]

The gas and electric companies don't staff that way.

Not for something you can't predict. But, as a retiree from Pacific Gas & Electric, I think I have some insight as to disaster preparation, much more than you would ever have had. Disclaimer: I am in no way speaking for that company here. I'm just describing what I observed in my time there.

First of all, there's an entire department devoted to business continuity and disaster recovery functions. They create and update plans, and test them out through tabletop exercises and simulations. This is true whether or not an event can be forecast.

Second, adequate inventory is kept on hand at all times, distributed to service centers throughout the territory. If you need to set a pole to get service back to customers, you can't wait around for poles, insulators, wires, transformers, etc. to be delivered. So you keep inventory. That costs money.

Next, for events that can be forecast, there are staff meteorologists for both the electric and gas lines of business. This has become particularly important as wildfire events have become more frequent. This is watched very closely, and teams are placed on stand-by whenever the probability of fire weather becomes apparent.

For events that can be forecast, staffing is increased, teams are pulled together, and regular communications established. This is also true when there's a PSPS (public safety power shutoff) event. The team for the public-facing Internet presence ensures that websites are functioning to provide customers and the media with up-to-date information on power shutoffs and power failures. (The latter is also true for the severe rainstorms that can lash northern California in the winter.)

Finally, for longer-range planning and for ensuring adequate budgeting, there's a risk-management group, comprised of people from the lines of business (including cybersecurity...I was a part of that and ran the cybersecurity risk-management team for a while) along with a dedicated support staff.

PG&E also has an extensive radio network, so much so that there's a small team whose entire job it is to manage the FCC licenses. The utility also contracts with all relevant cellular providers.

No doubt an individual radio station can't bring that level of resources to bear. But they damn well better be planning for it as best they can, especially if it's the kind of radio station that people will rely on in an emergency. I know that you and other people who post to RD don't believe that radio should have any kind of public-service function. We'll see how that smugness and complacency stands up when a disaster strikes, the power is out, the cellular sites either lack power or run out of backup power, roads are wrecked, bridges are pancaked onto freeways, and people are needing help but won't know how to get it. The irresponsibility of attitudes such as yours is breathtaking.

Radio is a business, yes, but sometimes it is more than a business.

Preparation costs money, but lack of preparation costs a lot more. Even if you can't forecast an event, you can prepare for it.

 

[davideduardo]

Andy, I know you and I know you've been there.

And although I said it is "unlikely" that a major news story could break overnight, that doesn't equate to "impossible". Hell, I remember the Northridge quake quite well -- I was living only about three miles due east of the epicenter, and only escaped with minor damage because the energy traveled on northeast to southwest and northwest to southeast lines -

Interestingly, I was living at the place where whatever the bureau of government that measures those things says had the greatest surface movement... near the corner of Ventura Boulevard and Vineland, so something traveled southeast!

- and I also remember the first thing I did was tune in to KFWB, which ended up simulcasting their coverage on over a half dozen stations (the late John Brooks almost got tongue tied doing all the legal IDs at the top of the hour).

I put on KFWB too. And then broke through the door to my apartment and managed to get to (K)KHJ to try to cover the event. IIRC, we called KFWB and asked permission to source some of their reports.

But have we had another such major story break in the overnight hours since? Nope. We have even managed to go more than 30 years without a repeat of Northridge at any time of day.

Andy mentions numerous fires, and I would add several things that come to mind that occurred overnight such as the Long Beach bridge closure due to an accident and a couple of closures of LAX due to various safety and threat reasons.

I have to believe that there is some kind of plan in place if and when something might happen, but the odds are that the plan won't get implemented.

The problem with very thin staffs today is that some plans depend on single-person links in the chain. And if that person is on vacation, out sick or was the victim of a RIF the week before, the whole thing does not work.

 

[TheBigA]

Not for something you can't predict. But, as a retiree from Pacific Gas & Electric, I think I have some insight as to disaster preparation, much more than you would ever have had. Disclaimer: I am in no way speaking for that company here. I'm just describing what I observed in my time there.

You should read all of the reporting about the gas & electric companies during the LA fires. There wasn't a lot of disaster preparation there. I had friends who lost their home in Altadena, and they're talking about joining a lawsuit.

 

[davideduardo]

No doubt an individual radio station can't bring that level of resources to bear. But they damn well better be planning for it as best they can, especially if it's the kind of radio station that people will rely on in an emergency. I know that you and other people who post to RD don't believe that radio should have any kind of public-service function. We'll see how that smugness and complacency stands up when a disaster strikes, the power is out, the cellular sites either lack power or run out of backup power, roads are wrecked, bridges are pancaked onto freeways, and people are needing help but won't know how to get it. The irresponsibility of attitudes such as yours is breathtaking.

Reality is such that, since the sudden viability of FM starting in the late 60's, markets have had 2 to 3 times as many stations as it did through the 1950's. Some decided to be just music stations, while others decided to be entirely or significantly based on news.

Much of the reasoning there... and we are talking about the 70's as a base... is that we had the roughly the same inflation adjusted revenue as in the 50's with 3 times as many stations. So there was no way that every station could have a newsperson on board 24/7.

Look at LA. There are, perhaps, 10 truly viable AM stations there. There are about twice as many viable FMs. And there are a whole bunch of less than viable stations with limited signals and no ability to compete for major ad budgets.

So some stations became music specialists, doing a great job of serving people with entertainment. And a few took the position of news and information sources, with resources dedicated to that function. Music listeners who needed some news knew where to go.

But now, radio revenue is off over 60% in the last 20 years, and stations can't even afford to have live DJs all day. Yesterday, the radio division of Univision let go all local general managers and named 3 regional managers for the whole country.

The revenue is not there. Unlike PG&E, which can simply petition for rate increases based on costs.

Radio is a business, yes, but sometimes it is more than a business.

Not any more. Radio is in a losing battle for survival.

Preparation costs money, but lack of preparation costs a lot more. Even if you can't forecast an event, you can prepare for it.

If you look at smaller markets, you will find stations that have someone present less than 50 hours a week, with the other hundred plus hours fully automated. Otherwise, they would not be able to survive.

 

[TheBigA]

I can only speak from the perspective of someone who has actually run major market newsrooms, including two in Los Angeles.

I worked with reporters covering the LA riots in the 90s. Radio can't be everywhere. We have to depend on others to be on location. I don't think that's hard to understand. There is no news staff in LA that can be everywhere at once when news happens.

KNX gets a budget to work with. How they spend it is up to them. They have decided to put the bulk of their budget during time when the most people are listening. I can't say I find fault in that logic.

 

[Weiserguy]

Correct. I'm warning what I fear will happen.

I never assumed there was no one in the building. I'm speaking from my experience. The first minutes of a major emergency are chaotic. Normal systems may be down. Normal contacts like police, fire, USGS might be unavailable. In additon to covering the news, the inside team is trying to contact as many people as they can for help - and they may not be able to reach them. Stations in major emergencies have had to use their air to dispatch reporters and call for staff to come in. News stations like KNX maintain RF (two-way) systems because they are a reliable way to get on the air with a system that is not internet or cellular based - and compromised in the emergency. And all this is assuming the connection/communication with San Francisco functioning. Of couse there must be some sort of plan to take over local control in a major emergency. My experience is that would be much harder to do if you weren't starting out with an experienced local anchor at the controls.

The 2014 Napa earthquake is approaching a dozen years ago, but seems to me like yesterday. It occurred early on a Sunday morning at 3:20 AM, a 6.0 which caused significant damage in the immediate area. I happened to be laying in bed, wide awake, when it hit, ~50 miles south of Napa, but it was powerful enough to shake houses on the Peninsula that I thought it was a more local temblor. After checking for damage in my house, I got my bedside radio going and punched up KCBS (which was in the middle of one of those "CBS Week In Review" programs, KGO (which was also playing something canned), KQED (running a repeat of some program that had aired Saturday PM), and even KNBR (a rerun of a Giants game, IIRC). Eventually the KCBS overnight anchor (Dean Dano, IIRC) and whoever the overnight editor was, were able to get the station out of automation and slowly start airing information from reporters who just knew what to do and where to call or drive to, reach local officials who themselves were trying to size up the situation, and even take listener calls to provide perspectives from different locations.

In contrast, it took KQED until Weekend Edition began airing at 5 AM to have a live body at the controls who could give any information at all. KGO never really caught up. (In earlier times they'd have been taking calls within minutes until there was more official USGS info.)

What I'm describing is a lot more recent (and significantly less intense) than Northridge or Loma Prieta, but it does give some picture of what happens when nobody's awake at the switch when an event happens at the worst possible time of the week. 3:20 AM on a Sunday morning is, debatably, the worst possible time of the week for a disaster to hit. If a similar disaster is a 7.0 in late 2025, do any of you think the reaction will have improved? Yeah, probably not.

If you choose to play music, then you may be able to get by with automation, smaller staffs and 12 minutes an hour of commercials. If you choose to air news and information, your staffing costs will be higher, but if you do it right, you will be the station people depend on when things go off the rails (figurative and sometimes literally), and you'll be able to air 20 minutes of spots. However, go AWOL in a disaster and you blow away all credibility. Just ask the people who used to be at KGO.

 

[ted chittenden]

You should read all of the reporting about the gas & electric companies during the LA fires. There wasn't a lot of disaster preparation there. I had friends who lost their home in Altadena, and they're talking about joining a lawsuit.

Funny you should mention lawsuits. A lot of what PG&E (and I'm sure Mark Roberts will correct me if I'm wrong) has done in terms of fire preparedness (including turning off power to some areas in periods of high winds as a preventitive measure) has come about *precisely* because of lawsuits. I wonder when the lawsuit against Audacy or IHM or even one of the local public radio stations (KQED, KCRW, KPCC) will emerge after an emergency event saying that the stations/companies didn't fulfill their public service obligations by not providing adequate reporting for people to respond in time to that emergency.

 

[Weiserguy]

I worked with reporters covering the LA riots in the 90s. Radio can't be everywhere. We have to depend on others to be on location. I don't think that's hard to understand. There is no news staff in LA that can be everywhere at once when news happens.

KNX gets a budget to work with. How they spend it is up to them. They have decided to put the bulk of their budget during time when the most people are listening. I can't say I find fault in that logic.

Why don't you open up your kimono just a little and tell us what you do professionally and where you are located, so we can all have some idea of why you seem to be so invested in always defending the status quo? The status quo hasn't been working lately. In fact, the status quo has been a huge failure of late. Saying you worked with "reporters covering the LA riots in the 90s" is describing an event from a third of a century ago, and for all I know you could have been the guy in a network comm room inserting patch cables, or even the guy doing same at an AT&T "Long Lines" telco facility. A bit more specificity, por favor?

 

[TheBigA]

I wonder when the lawsuit against Audacy or IHM or even one of the local public radio stations (KQED, KCRW, KPCC) will emerge after an emergency event saying that the stations/companies didn't fulfill their public service obligations by not providing adequate reporting for people to respond time to that emergency.

Once again, radio stations have no legal obligation to hire staff for emergencies. The way the DHS law was written in 2002, all of the responsibility is on the DHS people. That's why the department was created. The "public service obligation" for radio begins and ends with having their signals available for local emergency officials. Read the law. People tried suing radio stations for things like covid warnings, and they went nowhere.

Some think because they're reporters or news people that it makes them deputy dawg or some kind of quasi-law enforcement person. It doesn't. If people are told to evacuate an area, that evacuation includes the media. I saw it happen during a hurricane. A radio station wanted to stay on the air, and the emergency people told them they had to evacuate.

 

[TheBigA]

Why don't you open up your kimono just a little and tell us what you do professionally and where you are located, so we can all have some idea of why you seem to be so invested in always defending the status quo? The status quo hasn't been working lately.

I'm not defending anything. I'm explaining why things are the way they are. I have no obligation beyond presenting my opinion. YMMD.

In the world of message boards like this one, nobody cares about resumes or experience.