KNX numbers, FM vs AM

[TheBigA]

Although one could argue clear channel AM's are a relic from a by-gone era, they served a very important function at the time, and I'm not (yet) entirely convinced there is no longer a public interest for their existence.

The FCC basically lost interest in the concept in 1980, when they loosened up on protections to 750 miles. The bigger problem today is electronic interference. When I attempt to receive long distance clear channel AMs, they're hard to hear because of the static and non-broadcast interference. That's probably more a function of crappy AM receivers.

When news breaks at night, most of the people in St. George don't dial in an AM station from 300 miles away

When news breaks at night, most people find out about it the next morning.

 

[K.M. Richards]

The AM still has to be IDed once an hour, the translator less often

And there are non-audible options for translator identification.

That too.

For those who are now wondering ...

47 CFR § 74.1283 Station identification.

(c) A translator station authorized under this subpart shall be identified by one of the following methods.

(1) By arranging for the primary station whose station is being rebroadcast to identify the translator station by call sign and location. Three such identifications shall be made during each day: once between 7 a.m. and 9 a.m., once between 12:55 p.m. and 1:05 p.m. and once between 4 p.m. and 6 p.m. Stations which do not begin their broadcast before 9 a.m. shall make their first identification at the beginning of their broadcast days.

(2) By transmitting the call sign in International Morse Code at least once each hour. Transmitters of FM broadcast translator stations of more than 1 watt transmitter output power must be equipped with an automatic keying device that will transmit the call sign at least once each hour, unless there is in effect a firm agreement with the translator's primary station as provided in 47 CFR § 74.1283(c)(1) of this section. Transmission of the call sign can be accomplished by:
(i) Frequency shifting key; the carrier shift shall not be less than 5 kHz nor greater than 25 kHz.
(ii) Amplitude modulation of the FM carrier of at least 30 percent modulation. The audio frequency tone use shall not be within 200 hertz of the Emergency Broadcast System Attention signal alerting frequencies.

I edited out the public file documentation requirement for option (1) for clarity. The complete text is available here.

 

[ragazzo-pazzo]

KSL-TV is St. George's default CBS TV affiliat

KSL-TV in the NBC affliliate. Has been for several decades.

But who are we kidding here, ragazzo? When news breaks at night, most of the people in St. George don't dial in an AM station from 300 miles away (KSL) or 400 miles away (KNX). They check their cellphone and/or turn on the TV.

Don't disagree. Guess we might as well turn off all the radio stations.

 

[TheBigA]

Guess we might as well turn off all the radio stations.

Goes back to your earlier post that the FCC doesn't license stations for business. What people use isn't in their purview.

 

[briancraig]

As recently as 2005, one of the clear channel AMs showed they still served some public service purpose. WWL‘s 50kw AM signal was the only source of news and info in the hours and days after Katrina hit the Gulf Coast.

 

[Michael Rivers Kramer]

WCBS and WINS still do well financially without FM crutches at least for now.

 

[ragazzo-pazzo]

Goes back to your earlier post that the FCC doesn't license stations for business. What people use isn't in their purview.

Yep. Of course my tongue was planted firmly in cheek regarding shutting down radio. How disastrous would that be?

 

[TheBigA]

How disastrous would that be?

I guess I'd have to find a real job.

 

[ragazzo-pazzo]

As recently as 2005, one of the clear channel AMs showed they still served some public service purpose. WWL‘s 50kw AM signal was the only source of news and info in the hours and days after Katrina hit the Gulf Coast.

A perfect example of why I am not yet convinced there is no longer a need for this service. While not as big as Katrina, when hurricane Ida hit just last year, WWL once again rose above it all as the go to source.

 

[davideduardo]

A perfect example of why I am not yet convinced there is no longer a need for this service. While not as big as Katrina, when hurricane Ida hit just last year, WWL once again rose above it all as the go to source.

Again, the issue is not the stations themselves but the rapidly decreasing percentage of homes that have not radio at all... and the ones that do generally no longer have a battery operated receiver. So in the event of a disaster, the vast majority of homes will have not operating radio.

Beyond that, how many "big signal" AM station have a news department that can jump in and cover a major happening?

Of course, there are very few AMs that have a signal big enough to serve a distant market day and night in such a case.

And, since huge disasters are a decade or more apart in most cases and most places, how are those stations supposed to sustain a news department in the interim when, now, two generations of Americans don't think of radio as their primary news source.

A hurricane or an earthquake quickly prove how fragile the cellular system is. We are worse prepared than ever.

 

[davideduardo]

WCBS and WINS still do well financially without FM crutches at least for now.

The problem with that format is not the band they operate on but the fact that their audience is aging out to the point of no longer being attractive to advertisers.

 

[TheBigA]

Beyond that, how many "big signal" AM station have a news department that can jump in and cover a major happening?

Good question. I looked through the list of "clear channel" AMs, and the answer is about 65% of them are either all news or news talk, with a local news department and access to other news resources. Certainly there are also some stations that are barely hanging on, such as WWKB, KAAY, or WFED. But the majority are comparable to WWL.

 

[davideduardo]

Good question. I looked through the list of "clear channel" AMs, and the answer is about 65% of them are either all news or news talk, with a local news department and access to other news resources. Certainly there are also some stations that are barely hanging on, such as WWKB, KAAY, or WFED. But the majority are comparable to WWL.

KAAY is now essentially a daytimer, with less than 100 watts at night. WFED could not cover a disaster in a nearly city as it does not cover either Baltimore or Richmond way up there on 1500. 1210 in Philadelphia barely covers its own market, and KYW is not far behind.

The most useful are the former 1-A clear channels. There are not even 30 of those. A few others could in an emergency run non-directional but the ones in areas of bad conductivity can't serve an adjacent area as they do not cover them day and night: examples would be WSM, WSB.

The stations that might be useful are ones that helped in the past. When it was a daytimer, WAPE 690 in Jacksonville ran fulltime and served multiple hurricane zones to the north and south of them... but back then even a Top 40 station had a newsroom.

 

[ragazzo-pazzo]

A hurricane or an earthquake quickly prove how fragile the cellular system is. We are worse prepared than ever.

I won't pretend to have any answers, but for all that has been written, this has to be the most true statement on the thread.

 

[TheBigA]

The most useful are the former 1-A clear channels. There are not even 30 of those.

I think I counted 38, of which 28 are about equal to WWL. I agree with your assessment of WSM and WSB. From what I've seen they've kept their physical plants in great shape, but their signals are hampered by too much static and interference. Up until 10 years ago, WSM had a great news department, but not anymore.

The reality is that improving the signals of clear channel stations is not a priority of the FCC. Their interest is to have more stations, not a handful of very powerful stations. To them, more stations mean more voices. So they won't do anything that could improve the coverage of these stations.

 

[davideduardo]

I think I counted 38, of which 28 are about equal to WWL.

The 1-A clears for the US are 640, 650, 660, 670, 700, 720, 750, 760, 770, 780, 820, 830, 840, 870, 880, 890, 1020, 1030, 1040, 1100, 1120, 1160, 1180, 1200, 1210.

There are some decent 1-B (former) clear channel stations that are non-directional such as 680 in San Francisco, 1070 in LA and 810 in Schenectady. There are also some very directional ones such as those that were the result of the breakdown of the clears in the 70's... three in Nevada and ones like Roswell on 1020 and Lexington on 880 or Boise on 670 that could possibly run non-directional in a pinch; they are too far from large metros that might be affected by a disaster to be useful, though.

A good example might be Seattle. There are a number of stations that are 50 kw at least in the daytime, and some might be able to run non-directional with some engineering work. But if the Seattle area were so affected by the possible monumental earthquake that no station was standing, then there is no AM close enough and powerful enough to put a signal into the market day and night... the closest thing would be to use a Vancouver, BC station.

I agree with your assessment of WSM and WSB. From what I've seen they've kept their physical plants in great shape, but their signals are hampered by too much static and interference. Up until 10 years ago, WSM had a great news department, but not anymore.

And both of those stations are in areas with such horrible ground conductivity that they do not really cover the outskirts of their own metros well.

The reality is that improving the signals of clear channel stations is not a priority of the FCC.

The 1-A clears fought the FCC for nearly 30 years and even had an association to promote high power. The FCC kept pushing them back and finally the Commission started allowing additional 50 kw stations on the 1-A clears, making futher efforts impossible.

Their interest is to have more stations, not a handful of very powerful stations. To them, more stations mean more voices. So they won't do anything that could improve the coverage of these stations.

And any effort to increase power on an existing non-directional clear will cause overlap with adjacent channel stations that have come on the air since the effort to upgrade to 500 to 750 kw was finally put to rest in the late 60's. So if WLW wanted to go to 100 kw or 250 kw, they would find that newer stations on 690 and 710 make that impossible.

 

[CAVEMANager]

A few more comments: First, what harm would be done if KNX announced the 1070 as well as the 97.1? Does the AM signal harm them? Second, The idea that the skywave isn't worth a penny probably isn't correct. Suppose you were advertising an insurance company. One station offers you the Los Angeles metro area and KNX tosses in a few listeners in Arizona. All other factors being equal, who has the better deal?. Third, the notion that AM radio is beset with man made noise is half truth. Drive 30 miles outside a metro area at night and tune across the AM dial. You won't hear noise from a sparkplug or a computer monitor. You'll hear the effect of having 20 stations on each frequency with no one on top. I used to listen to KFI from Tucson. Now there's racket from a station on 640 in Juarez. Used to hear 1170 in Tulsa. Now digital noise from KSL on 1160. Problem is a misguided FCC as much as anything. The fact that the victimized stations don't care is also important. The listening public should count for something. Fourth, what about the notion that nobody outside Southern California cares about KNX news? KNX has CBS News on the hour and many feature reports that are of national interest. I even enjoy hearing about a traffic jam that has cars backed up a mile at 3 a.m. Makes me glad I'm not there.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

A few more comments: First, what harm would be done if KNX announced the 1070 as well as the 97.1? Does the AM signal harm them?

They can probably sell one more spot per hour by not saying "97.1 and 1070" 20 times per hour.

Second, The idea that the skywave isn't worth a penny probably isn't correct. Suppose you were advertising an insurance company. One station offers you the Los Angeles metro area and KNX tosses in a few listeners in Arizona. All other factors being equal, who has the better deal?.

It's a tie, because KNX has no demonstrable listening in Arizona. Additionally, there are relatively few companies that both use radio advertising and would benefit from more than local coverage. In fact, for most small businesses the problem with using radio advertising is *too much* coverage: if you run one tire shop in LA, buying an ad on KNX will reach many thousands of customers who have more local options, and that reach costs you $$.

Third, the notion that AM radio is beset with man made noise is half truth. Drive 30 miles outside a metro area at night and tune across the AM dial.

Very few people live 30 miles outside a metro area, so their experience is only slightly relevant.

You won't hear noise from a sparkplug or a computer monitor. You'll hear the effect of having 20 stations on each frequency with no one on top. I used to listen to KFI from Tucson. Now there's racket from a station on 640 in Juarez. Used to hear 1170 in Tulsa. Now digital noise from KSL on 1160. Problem is a misguided FCC as much as anything. The fact that the victimized stations don't care is also important. The listening public should count for something.

The "listening public" for long-distance reception of AM radio is too small, or poorly organized, to make anything happen.

There should not be a 640 in Juarez, except maybe as a daytimer, based on my understanding of the rules.

 

[MVB13]

The FCC basically lost interest in the concept in 1980, when they loosened up on protections to 750 miles. The bigger problem today is electronic interference. When I attempt to receive long distance clear channel AMs, they're hard to hear because of the static and non-broadcast interference. That's probably more a function of crappy AM receivers.



When news breaks at night, most people find out about it the next morning.

Electric cars can't get AM stations because of the static. Crazy no one had figured out a solution.

 

[xkxrx]

Electric cars can't get AM stations because of the static. Crazy no one had figured out a solution.

Probably because there's no money in it.