KOGO in CABO

[SDRadio]

I was in Cabo San Lucas last Thursday. I took my trusty C Crane radio with me ... and off the coast I heard KOGO-AM 600 in Cabo. Local ex-pats tell me before the internet was in the town, AM stations, including KFI, KNX, XETRA-AM (now XEWW), were the local news gathering places after sunset.

The reception of KOGO was better than anticipated.

 

[136kgb]

For 5000 watts and a two tower directional. KOGO is the best signal in town, KOGO has the lowest power bill, highest rations, and best signal of any AM in the market. For those who don't know KOGO is also the most powerful AM 600 in the U.S.

By the way Chris why were you in Cabo? Did you win the trip by looking at a time share?

 

[SDRadio]

By the way Chris why were you in Cabo? Did you win the trip by looking at a time share?

Cruise ship to and from San Pedro to the "Mexican Riviera". Three ports. I got KNX and WOAI in Puerto Valletra, but not as clear as in Cabo.

 

[davideduardo]

For 5000 watts and a two tower directional. KOGO is the best signal in town, KOGO has the lowest power bill, highest rations, and best signal of any AM in the market. For those who don't know KOGO is also the most powerful AM 600 in the U.S.

KOGO does better, coverage-wise, because it is on 600. With 5kw on 600 a station would outcover 50 kw on 1200 and about 120 kw on 1600.

KOGO is not unique with 5 kw on 600. In fact, WMT, also 5kw day and night, in Cedar Rapids has a better pattern at night and definitely outcovers KOGO by many times, as dos KSJB in Jamestown. Other 5 kw fulltimers on 600 include Jacksonville, Greensboro, El Paso, Mayaguez, Baltimore, and Memphis.

 

[136kgb]

Yes but David KOGO is doing better with 5kw than KFMB does with 50kw. And also all of the other 600's ALL have more towers than KOGO. Check the FCC database

 

[davideduardo]

Yes but David KOGO is doing better with 5kw than KFMB does with 50kw. And also all of the other 600's ALL have more towers than KOGO. Check the FCC database

KFMB is 50 kw at night only; they are 5 kw daytime, on a higher frequency. You would not expect 5 kw on 760 to equal 5 kw on 600, would you?

The number of towers is immaterial. I can take a 4 tower array and create a nearly omnidirectional pattern with very gentle nulls... things that a two tower array can not do without more severe nulls. I don't understand why you would think that more towers would be necessarily a disadvantage.

The factors that define the quality of a signal have to do with power, dial position, and the amount of signal put over the market (related to transmitter location, directionality, etc.) Coastal stations generally do nicely not because they are superior, but because they have the luxury of backing the array landward and shooting over the market out to sea, where there is nothing to protect.

But as far as useful coverage on 600, WMT wins hands down. And your original statement that KOGO was the most powerful US station on 600 is just not true,

 

[jonbruce]

I heard Michael Boss mention in the early 1980's that 690 had listeners in La Paz.

 

[136kgb]

WMT is one tower day and 3 towers at night with 5 kw, and the ground conductivity in that area is lower at WMT than KOGO is. With 5 KM at night KOGO gets into Washington state and Oregon, during the day I have had QSLs from Sacramento, and they picked up the HD there.

 

[w9wi]

WMT is one tower day and 3 towers at night with 5 kw, and the ground conductivity in that area is lower at WMT than KOGO is. With 5 KM at night KOGO gets into Washington state and Oregon, during the day I have had QSLs from Sacramento, and they picked up the HD there.

I would suggest (not having spent enough time in California to know for sure) that KOGO's extended coverage is good along the coast but not so much so going inland. The FCC chart does show higher ground conductivity along the coast at San Diego (and nothing beats seawater!) but it drops off quickly when you go inland. The conductivity at WMT's transmitter site is somewhat lower, but it's very close to a very large area of high conductivity.

In general most engineers agree it's difficult to beat the daytime coverage of a low-on-the-dial station in the Great Plains. ISTR KFYR-550 (Bismarck, ND) or KWMT-540 (Fort Dodge, Iowa) is recognized as the station with the largest daytime coverage (in terms of square miles, not people) of any U.S. AM station. CBK-540 in Central Saskatchewan is probably #1 in North America.

 

[davideduardo]

WMT is one tower day and 3 towers at night with 5 kw, and the ground conductivity in that area is lower at WMT than KOGO is. With 5 KM at night KOGO gets into Washington state and Oregon, during the day I have had QSLs from Sacramento, and they picked up the HD there.

WMT covers considerably more square miles than KOGO. It's non-directional daytime, and in an area where the conductivity is between 8 and 15. The conductivity at the KOGO site is 8, and within a few miles goes down to 4.

KOGO does not even put a "usable" signal, day and night, over all the single county SD MSA. The site, only a few miles on the land side of downtown, has severe nulls at 355 degrees and 95 degrees, meaning there is only the eqivalent of about 500 watts towards due north and to the east. Most of the signal goes over the ocean, day and night, in fact. The disadvantage of two-tower directionals is that the nulls are symetrical, costing KOGO useful coverage in areas that now have lots of population.

WMT, with a three tower dog-leg pattern manages to put the required null towards WREC, while it has a much smaller one towards Jamestown, showing how three towers that are not in-line can produce an asymetrical pattern. WMT totally covers, day and night, its MSA, too.

Your insinuation that more towers always means less coverage is just, simply, wring. Depending on the perotections required, a three to six tower array, particularly dog-legs and parallelograms, can make smother, asymetrical nulles and give better coverage of a market.

A QSL, by the way, is a verification of reception card issued by a station. You can not "have a QSL" from Sacramento unless you picked up a Sacramento station in SD, reported it, and got a verification back.

Freak reception or DX does not indicate the effective and useful coverage of a station. In most cases in SoCal, there is little reported listening for ratings outside about the 10 mv/m contour of an AM in the daytime. WMT covers the better part of 8 counties, while KOGO has a useful signal in only about a third of SD county.

 

[136kgb]

You know David, you have failed to mention the height of the towers of WMT are they eighth wave, quarter, half ,or five eights wave ?? The two KOGO towers are quarter wave towers spaced a half wave length from each other. The other thing is, have you ever taken an FIM reading at the monitor points of either of the two stations?? If not then you don't know. And most credible engineers would agree with my preference for the KOGO signal over a 3 tower directional that has to switch at night.

And the next point is this are either your name or mine on the license of either of these two stations?? Is either of our bank accounts going to be increased if either of us is right or if both of us are wrong? The answer is no to both questions. So what the hell does it matter? Why did you want to start an argument for no obvious reason but to spout your ideas? I worked at the great KOGO and I got to hear the REGULAR reception reports of KOGO (they were not freak).

KOGO itself has a rich history of service to San Diego and Southern California, let people love KOGO and show it the love it deserves! After all the station has been licensed since June 3rd, 1925.

David stop trying to take the romance out of radio, and stop adding corporate coldness to it! You are probably one of the people trying to force AM IBOC down people's throat, just to destroy DX-ing.

 

[RadeoEngineer]

You know David, you have failed to mention the height of the towers of WMT are they eighth wave, quarter, half ,or five eights wave ?? The two KOGO towers are quarter wave towers spaced a half wave length from each other. The other thing is, have you ever taken an FIM reading at the monitor points of either of the two stations?? If not then you don't know. And most credible engineers would agree with my preference for the KOGO signal over a 3 tower directional that has to switch at night.

The three towers of WMT are 1/4 wave, (tower 1) 1/4 wave , (tower 3) and about 1/3 wave (tower 2). Tower 1 (reference) is spaced 167.5 degrees from tower 2 and 120 degrees from tower 3. The phasing and ratio can be found here: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/amq?list=0&facid=73593

I have worked at single and multiple tower arrays (one tower, three towers, six towers, five towers and seven towers). The number or electrical height of the towers involved has no bearing on coverage without consideration of what the electrical relationship of the towers in question has to the spacing and phasing, moreso than the height, although that issue does come under consideration. I have taken readings of XETRA at its original location of some 23 years ago at (well north of) Rosarito Beach (50 kW day/directional) vs. KOGO (5 kW directional) in the Los Angeles metro area ( I can't remember all of the points, except one was in the Dodger Stadium parking lot) and the results were of comparable signal strength at all points measured on a calibrated FIM. These measurements were compared to the same points taken two years previously by a well known consulting engineer.

And the next point is this are either your name or mine on the license of either of these two stations?? Is either of our bank accounts going to be increased if either of us is right or if both of us are wrong? The answer is no to both questions. So what the hell does it matter? Why did you want to start an argument for no obvious reason but to spout your ideas? I worked at the great KOGO and I got to hear the REGULAR reception reports of KOGO (they were not freak).

I have argued with David on other points, but I find that he better than generally knows his stuff.

KOGO itself has a rich history of service to San Diego and Southern California, let people love KOGO and show it the love it deserves! After all the station has been licensed since June 3rd, 1925.

Not relevant to anything other than emotion.

David stop trying to take the romance out of radio, and stop adding corporate coldness to it! You are probably one of the people trying to force AM IBOC down people's throat, just to destroy DX-ing.

I would doubt that, but David can address it. I should say, that in my opinion, the romance left radio years ago, like a John skulked out of the cheap hotel room of a $20 hooker.

 

[davideduardo]

You know David, you have failed to mention the height of the towers of WMT are they eighth wave, quarter, half ,or five eights wave ??

Both stations are using quarter wave towers. Not great, but given the frequency it is still a lot of steel.

The two KOGO towers are quarter wave towers spaced a half wave length from each other.

So? The distance, as well as power and phase are what creates the severe nulls on KOGO and restricts day and night coverage of most of SD county to an unusable level.

The other thing is, have you ever taken an FIM reading at the monitor points of either of the two stations?? If not then you don't know.

We know the licensed values; neither station is operating with parameters at variance so it is pretty simple to map them using any of several programs we can use to take the licensed values, conductivity, etc., and show very precisely the contours.

And most credible engineers would agree with my preference for the KOGO signal over a 3 tower directional that has to switch at night.

To the total and absolute contrary, I'd prefer the dog leg night-only pattern of WMT on higher conductivity soil to the 24/7 directionality of KOGO. I've actually taken a 2 tower directional to 4 (parallelogram) to be able to improve coverage significantly in a top 15 market, while perserving the protection of another co-channel station about 1500 miles away.

And the next point is this are either your name or mine on the license of either of these two stations?? Is either of our bank accounts going to be increased if either of us is right or if both of us are wrong? The answer is no to both questions. So what the hell does it matter? Why did you want to start an argument for no obvious reason but to spout your ideas? I worked at the great KOGO and I got to hear the REGULAR reception reports of KOGO (they were not freak).

This is a discussion board. There is an interesting topic here, in fact... it's about the SD market not having one single AM station that puts a usable signal over the entire metro!

Night reception reports prove less than nothing. From Ohio, I frequently heard 250 watt KIKI-830 in Honolulu... but until they increased power, they did not even cover all the city of license with a listenable signal. Or, several of the stations I owned in Quito, HCRM1 and HCFV1 specifically, got countless reception reports from Europe, New Zealand and Australia and from all over the US (one DXers special got about 50 reports from the US). But the local coverage was limited to the Quito market...

I could go on an tell you about KTIP in Poerterville in Ohio, and many many more. All that shows is that, unfortunately, AM staitons skip at night.

David stop trying to take the romance out of radio, and stop adding corporate coldness to it! You are probably one of the people trying to force AM IBOC down people's throat, just to destroy DX-ing.

Yeah, let's not even think about options that might help AM to survive just so a thousand or so DXers that are left can pick up some station from Minnesota.

AM is dying. Reason one is that, after W.W. II most cities grew to the suburbs, while the power and directionality of most only served the former urban area pre-expansion. Right now, a recognized source states that there are on average only 2 viable AMs in each of the top 100 metros in the US... the truth being that some, like Washington, DC, have none! Second, AM sound sucks. Blame it on receivers or stations or both, the fact is that two generations have grown up on the sound of FM and think AM bits big time... which is why some metros have as little as 10% AM shares, and nearly all of that is over 55, a very undesirable demo for sales. Third, ambient noise, mostly man made, from CFLs and computers and machinery has increased to the point that a station needs double or more the field intensity that was required in the 50's and 60's to get any listening.

 

[oldiesfan6479]

Yeah, let's not even think about options that might help AM to survive just so
a thousand or so DXers that are left can pick up some station from Minnesota.

So you support stations I-CRAPping all over their first and second
adjacent frequencies?

Hang on a sec...hello, Hallmark? Yeah, cancel the Christmas card
template for the "Old Gringo."

 

[KOOL Listener Lauren]

Yeah, let's not even think about options that might help AM to survive just so
a thousand or so DXers that are left can pick up some station from Minnesota.

I've always thought of the best advantage that AM has, as opposed to FM, was the ability to have their stations heard from further away at nighttime. DXer or not, somebody somewhere will be stumbling upon some station they've never picked up before. More availability of stations and more content to choose from isn't necessarily a bad thing. You can even become a new fan of a new show.

So you support stations I-CRAPping all over their first and second
adjacent frequencies?

Hang on a sec...hello, Hallmark? Yeah, cancel the Christmas card
template for the "Old Gringo."

Oh no, David... You just pushed OldiesFan's wrong button!

 

[davideduardo]

Yeah, let's not even think about options that might help AM to survive just so
a thousand or so DXers that are left can pick up some station from Minnesota.

So you support stations I-CRAPping all over their first and second
adjacent frequencies?

Hang on a sec...hello, Hallmark? Yeah, cancel the Christmas card
template for the "Old Gringo."

In an era where you need upwards of 10 mv/m of AM signal to get listening in metro areas, and about 5 mv/m or better is needed in more rural areas, there is no listening that can be detected for adjacent or next adjacent channel frequencies on AM within the limited area where HD Radio digital sidebands would interfere.

The fact that the local stations in each market are in real trouble because of the low, low listenership on the band requires some extreme measures. I don't think HD is going to make a difference, though... AM is just too far gone. What with the move of more and more news/talk and sports formats to FM, there is just not going to be any reason for anyone under 55 or 60 to listen, and a station with over-55 listeners can not sustain itself in most rated markets.

 

[davideduardo]

I've always thought of the best advantage that AM has, as opposed to FM, was the ability to have their stations heard from further away at nighttime.

That was an advantage for some stations back before the TV era dawned... or nearly 60 years ago. Then, prime time on radio was at night. Today, it is rough to sell anything after 7 PM... much of what you hear is barter or bonus spotting.

And the fact that signals skip means nearly every station has reduced night coverage. Daytime, I can hear KFYI and KTAR at my home outside Prescott, but at night there are multiple signals mixing on both freequencies.

DXer or not, somebody somewhere will be stumbling upon some station they've never picked up before. More availability of stations and more content to choose from isn't necessarily a bad thing. You can even become a new fan of a new show.

The fact remains that there is essentially no measurable audience at night for any station outside its groundwave, interference free coverage area.

Oh no, David... You just pushed OldiesFan's wrong button!

My job has always been pushing buttons.

 

[oldiesfan6479]

...there is no listening that can be detected for adjacent or next adjacent
channel frequencies on AM within the limited area where HD Radio digital
sidebands would interfere.

I'm sure Bob Savage of WYSL 1040 Avon, NY (Rochester) can relate to
you mega-grief on how I-CRAP hash from WBZ 1030 Boston is slamming
his station, or check here on R-I: New Generation Radio > HD Radio.

 

[davideduardo]

I'm sure Bob Savage of WYSL 1040 Avon, NY (Rochester) can relate to
you mega-grief on how I-CRAP hash from WBZ 1030 Boston is slamming
his station, or check here on R-I: New Generation Radio > HD Radio.

WYSL has a minimal night signal, yet the station wants to serve a bigger market quite a piece down the road from Avon. I have told Bob that I believe WYSL represents the type of inferior facility that the FCC should never have licensed. Protecting the dog facilities of America will only hasten the demise of the entire band.

Canada and Mexico have the right idea... move as many AMs as possible to FM, and the few remaining stations can improve facilities and last a while longer.