Kost christmas will it start early like kez in phoenix?

[oldies76]

Dude, it's not a shock to me, c'mon I spent 23 years in the radio industry so I know there's no 10 shares these days. Not gonna debate, just want you to know, geeez

A 5.5 or 5.4 is what KRTH gets, KOST a tad higher so a 10 is rare or non-existent in L.A. A small market operation may see some 10 plusses since there is little competition or few stations to enjoy.

 

[davideduardo]

Dude, it's not a shock to me, c'mon I spent 23 years in the radio industry so I know there's no 10 shares these days. Not gonna debate, just want you to know, geeez

The last 10 share or above in LA was, uh, last year.

In 12+ KOST had a 12.9 in Holiday, 2018. It also had an 8.9 in December, which is pretty close.

 

[davideduardo]

Who's "everyone"?? You mean some. 10% of the listening audience is not everyone. MOST people have their own playlists or collections they access for their musical enjoyment, whether at Christmas or in June and that includes me. People want to hear the tunes, not commercials and other talk interrupting their enjoyment, so yes, it matters very much so.

At its peak week in the Holiday book, KOST is listened to by 45% of all persons 12+ in LA. In the full 4 weeks, it cumes 38% of all persons, and in December it cumes 31%.

If you exclude first generation immigrants who have no tradition of listening to American Christmas music, the cume reach is likely 2/3 of the entire market.

60 years ago, my contemporaries in school had their own playlists, too. They were called "45s" and we spent a lot of time playing songs over and over. We'd even trade them with friends when we tired of one. Later, we had our own cassettes. And so on. The idea of having our own music selection is nothing new. It complements radio.

 

[davideduardo]

A 5.5 or 5.4 is what KRTH gets, KOST a tad higher so a 10 is rare or non-existent in L.A. A small market operation may see some 10 plusses since there is little competition or few stations to enjoy.

As I just posted and as is usual, you are wrong.

 

[davideduardo]

This sort of goes to my point above. You know, someone, somewhere, had to make an individual (that is, most likely not a corporate pre-approved choice) to play "Grandma Got Run Over By a Reindeer". And it was awesome - seasonal, funny and cute (unless you are a Grandma without a sense of humor) and not the same shlock they were playing for the rest of their Holiday music at the time. I think it was the 80s or 90a when it came out and I loved it then and still love it now.

But in today's corporate world, where we don't need no stinkin' new wheels when we already have the old one from last year, which had been used for years and years before, a new one-off song by a non-major label artist like that could never get on because, well, "Corporate already told us which songs to play and its not on the approved list. But please enjoy another Holiday treasure from... Mariah Carey!"

I was never into punk rock that much, but Mariah Carey is why it existed.

It's disingenuous to think that, when so much is at stake for two whole books that the companies that have significant Christmas conversions don't do considerable research.

Heck, even independent WBEB did music and perceptual tests about its Christmas selection.

Listeners pick the songs. They pick the versions. If they don't have any passion for newer songs or newer versions, they don't get played the next year.

Christmas music is quite a few centuries older than radio itself. It's steeped in tradition, full of songs we heard with our parents and grandparents when we were little. Radio respects the tradition.

 

[oldies76]

As I just posted and as is usual, you are wrong.

As I stated.....

Los Angeles (5.6 , 5.9)

https://ratings.****************/content/arb003

and now for a small market...#229 (16.0)

https://ratings.****************/content/arb576

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Christmas music is quite a few centuries older than radio itself. It's steeped in tradition, full of songs we heard with our parents and grandparents when we were little. Radio respects the tradition.

Now you're being disingenuous AND funny. The only tradition radio has ever respected is the art of capitalism and making $$$. I am not saying that is a bad thing; I am a 100% capitalist myself. But get real, radio doesn't care about what you listened to with your grandparents and the memories that were made. If it did, Frank Sinatra would still be on.

Here is a little secret I will share with you. If "Grandma" was ever tested the year before by some sample group, it would have been voted down almost unanimously and never played. Fortunately, that guy somewhere chose to break the rules and spun it anyway. Good for him!

What you are really saying is radio is a slave to groupthink. Groupthink is the antithesis of ingenuity and innovation, which is why radio never displays any.

 

[oldies76]

Now you're being disingenuous AND funny. The only tradition radio has ever respected is the art of capitalism and making $$$. I am not saying that is a bad thing; I am a 100% capitalist myself. But get real, radio doesn't care about what you listened to with your grandparents and the memories that were made. If it did, Frank Sinatra would still be on.

Here is a little secret I will share with you. If "Grandma" was ever tested the year before by some sample group, it would have been voted down almost unanimously and never played. Fortunately, that guy somewhere chose to break the rules and spun it anyway. Good for him!

What you are really saying is radio is a slave to groupthink. Groupthink is the antithesis of ingenuity and innovation, which is why radio never displays any.

Exactly CF, they wanna talk about tradition, then why are the vast majority of rat pack and older 50's and 60's Christmas tunes ignored today on these stations? Weren't those the songs and carols that supposedly began it all? I mean what's Christmas without Sinatra, Sammy Davis, Dean Martin, Mathis and Andy? Talk about abandoning and disrespecting tradition, in favor of Mariah, oh.....12 times a day! Bruce's "Santa" and that Grandma song are certainly not traditional in my books. But I'll take Feliciano any day.

 

[oldies76]

Radio respects the tradition.

Not true in the large markets, not at all.

 

[davideduardo]

Not true in the large markets, not at all.

I don't even know what that statement means.

 

[oldies76]

I don't even know what that statement means.

Large market radio stations have tight playlists, therefore smaller, repetitive lists for Christmas songs, which means many early songs that represent traditional values for their long time listeners are all but ignored, in favor of newer songs and Mariah..... In the smaller markets, playlists are much larger, more songs.

Newer holiday songs are not traditional.

I didn't think I would have to explain that to you.....

 

[davideduardo]

Exactly CF, they wanna talk about tradition, then why are the vast majority of rat pack and older 50's and 60's Christmas tunes ignored today on these stations? Weren't those the songs and carols that supposedly began it all? I mean what's Christmas without Sinatra, Sammy Davis, Dean Martin, Mathis and Andy? Talk about abandoning and disrespecting tradition, in favor of Mariah, oh.....12 times a day! Bruce's "Santa" and that Grandma song are certainly not traditional in my books. But I'll take Feliciano any day.

Those songs are increasingly irrelevant to today's audience. I'm way outside the more desirable sales demos, and I never heard... with family, with friends... songs by those artists. So those versions are not part of my memories of "Christmas past".

Where tradition is upheld is with the songs that everyone knows by artists that are relevant. Oddly, the original "White Christmas" has held up, while most of the 50's era crooners have not.

Again, what is being catered to by Christmas seasonal formats is the "feel" of Christmas that conveys the memories, the seasonal joy, the relief from everyday concerns of the rest of the year. That is done by slowly... a few songs a year... keeping both the songs and the artists relevant.

Remember, too, that until around 2000, all-Christmas was not heard in nearly every market. Christmas music was played at the old "one song an hour after Thanksgiving, two an hour after December 10th..." where only songs that "fit the format" were played.

When KEZ in Phoenix did all-Christmas the first time, they discovered that there was a whole range of songs that were playable... including multiple versions of some songs... in the totally different context of a nothing-but-Christmas-music scenario. Through audience research and feedback the major players have figured out which songs trigger "Christmas spirit" and make listening throughout the season so addictive.

 

[davideduardo]

Large market radio stations have tight playlists, therefore smaller, repetitive lists for Christmas songs, which means many early songs that represent traditional values for their long time listeners are all but ignored, in favor of newer songs and Mariah..... In the smaller markets, playlists are much larger, more songs.

Newer holiday songs are not traditional.

I didn't think I would have to explain that to you.....

Now you explained, and it's just a wrong conclusion on your part.

Most of the older songs are not relevant in style to today's 25-54 listener. Heck, they are not relevant... and are a total tune-out to me... and I am way out of those demos.

Just as AC stations that used to play 70's gold are now much more current, those All Christmas stations have updated the sound of the music to make the versions they play relevant.

There is nothing relevant to today's listeners about "Rat Pack" songs with big band orchestrations and a style that is stilted by today's standards. Yet many of the songs played are compositions that are more than a century old but in contemporary versions acceptable to today's listeners.

"Newer" songs are traditional if they fold into each individual listener's selection of tunes that are part of "Christmas spirit".

In any case, when listeners are consulted via research they tell station groups what exactly they want to hear. And what they do not care for.

 

[oldies76]

and I never heard... with family, with friends... songs by those artists.

Those artists were staples on radio during the holiday season until some genius decided to eliminate most of them from the larger market airwaves. They are just as relevant today as they were in 1968. If you chose not to ever hear them, that does not make them irrelevant. That's a personal choice by you.

 

[davideduardo]

Now you're being disingenuous AND funny. The only tradition radio has ever respected is the art of capitalism and making $$$. I am not saying that is a bad thing; I am a 100% capitalist myself. But get real, radio doesn't care about what you listened to with your grandparents and the memories that were made. If it did, Frank Sinatra would still be on.

Tradition creates a bond with certain songs, but not necessarily with certain artists. It's the "feel" of Christmas, tailored to the current group of 25-54 that is being addressed.

In many cases, the songs may have been, a half-century or more ago, done by Sinatra and the like, but today's 25-54 for the most part totally rejects the sound, the style, the orchestrations of those artists. But many of "their" songs in contemporized versions, are favorites during the season.

I repeat: it is about the songs. Not the artists. Now some older songs may still be relevant, but most are not... in fact, were I to hear Sinatra and Dean Martin on a Christmas station, I would tune out, but the same song by a more contemporary artist would hold me for a while more. Simply stated, those artists are not part of my tradition. But the songs I hear definitely are.

Here is a little secret I will share with you. If "Grandma" was ever tested the year before by some sample group, it would have been voted down almost unanimously and never played. Fortunately, that guy somewhere chose to break the rules and spun it anyway. Good for him!

But back when that song was released, Christmas music was very format specific and played one song an hour, then two songs an hour and then, the week of Christmas, three or four an hour. Stations programmed Christmas songs based on the environment created by the other 8 to 10 songs an hour that were not Christmas ones.

So today, it's unlikely that totally new Christmas songs will get exposure. The all-Christmas format is an oldies, memory based format. It is not current based.

What you are really saying is radio is a slave to groupthink. Groupthink is the antithesis of ingenuity and innovation, which is why radio never displays any.

And that is why KOST in LA (to use one example) cumes 45% of all persons 12+ in LA in the last week of its most recent Christmas season.

"They play all my favorites" is the motivational factor. It is not "I hear new songs about Christmas that are unfamiliar and not bonded with good feelings".

 

[davideduardo]

Those artists were staples on radio during the holiday season until some genius decided to eliminate most of them from the larger market airwaves. They are just as relevant today as they were in 1968. If you chose not to ever hear them, that does not make them irrelevant. That's a personal choice by you.

Those big-band and crooner era songs have been replaced by newer versions that are more relevant to today's listeners.

This is no different from gold based formats dropping first the 50's, then the 60's and now, partially, the 70's

Unlike the rest of the year, where artists have hits, Christmas programming is based on hits by artists that embody the sound that today's 25-54 likes.

 

[oldies76]

Most of the older songs are not relevant in style to today's 25-54 listener. Heck, they are not relevant... and are a total tune-out to me... and I am way out of those demos.

So by that conclusion, you would tune out classics like "Feliz Navidad" by Jose, "It's the Most Wonderful Time Of the Year" by Andy, "We Need A Little Christmas" by Percy Faith, "Sleigh Ride" by Mathis, "Marshmallow World" by Dean, songs by Elvis....the list goes on.....hundreds of one-of-a-kind and timeless Christmas tunes.

 

[davideduardo]

So by that conclusion, you would tune out classics like "Feliz Navidad" by Jose, "It's the Most Wonderful Time Of the Year" by Andy, "We Need A Little Christmas" by Percy Faith, "Sleigh Ride" by Mathis, "Marshmallow World" by Dean, songs by Elvis....the list goes on.....hundreds of one-of-a-kind and timeless Christmas tunes.

If anything I am out of the demos, but still enjoy them. You are still in it, being a couple decades older than me.

As I said before, some songs in their original versions for some reason endure. "White Christmas" in the original is still playable, as are a couple of exceptional songs by older-generation artists.

But most aren't.

All-Christmas is about a feeling, about songs, but generally not about individual artists. Many of the song versions are newer renditions of very traditional songs because the orchestrations and vocal style is more relevant to today's listener.

You do, however, bring back a memory. At Christmastime in 1970, a local singer and his guide showed up at WUNO in San Juan with a brand new Christmas song they were promoting. We liked it, and put it into the Christmas rotation that same day and were the first station anywhere to play "Feliz Navidad".

 

[oldies76]

"They play all my favorites" is the motivational factor. It is not "I hear new songs about Christmas that are unfamiliar and not bonded with good feelings".

But not everyone assumes that thinking. You are stating that every single Christmas song KOST plays is a favorite of every single listener that tunes in.

I beg to differ and greatly. That's why they only draw a given small percentage of L.A. listeners, because 1) not everyone is satisfied with their selections and 2) people have endless options now, that they didn't have in 1985, the internet, music services and YouTube.

If I hear "All I Want For Christmas" after already hearing it 7 times, one more time, I will tune out and turn on my playlist instead. Ratings fall.

 

[davideduardo]

But not everyone assumes that thinking. You are stating that every single Christmas song KOST plays is a favorite of every single listener that tunes in.

With a cume of nearly half of the market in the week before Christmas and of a third of the market starting in November, we have to assume that people like the blend, the mood and the feel.

The analogy here is to Beautiful Music. Those of us who programmed the format tried to stay ultra-familiar, but it was not about individual songs... it was about the sets of songs, the hours of songs, the days of songs. We were painting a mural, not a cameo. The focus was on flow and texture.

This same criteria is part of the All Christmas seasonal format.

I beg to differ and greatly. That's why they only draw a given small percentage of L.A. listeners, because 1) not everyone is satisfied with their selections and 2) people have endless options now, that they didn't have in 1985, the internet, music services and YouTube.

In the week before Christmas of last year, KOST reached (cume rating) 45% of all persons living in the Los Angeles market. Even a month ahead of Christmas, the December book (which was nearly all in November) had a cume rating of 31, meaning that 31% of all people in LA listened to it then.

"Small percentage" you say. 45% of all people in the market listened to it during one week, and the average for the 8 weeks of the seasonal format was around 39%. Of all people in the market. Of everyone.

"Cume Rating", a figure you obviously do not understand, is the percentage of the universe that listens in a given period. Unlike share, which is a percentage of radio listeners tuned in at any given time, cume rating is a measure of what percentage of the total population tunes in during each week of measurement.

If I hear "All I Want For Christmas" after already hearing it 7 times, one more time, I will tune out and turn on my playlist instead. Ratings fall.

We already know that you are a highly eclectic outlier that no radio station in its right mind would want to even attempt to please. You don't have to say this over and over. We get it.