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KPCC Rebrands as LAist 89.3

"The LA TV market is nuts with PBS"

I always wondered if PBS performed worse in Los Angeles over the years by always being on UHF. Washington is another market where PBS was on UHF and I believe it always did well.

But I would think KCET historically had fewer viewers than 13 in New York or 11 in Chicago or 9 in San Francisco.

I'm surprised the FCC didn't reserve a VHF for non commercial use in L.A. Always seemed odd that Los Angeles had 4 commercial VHF independents.
 
briancraig said:
"The LA TV market is nuts with PBS"

I always wondered if PBS performed worse in Los Angeles over the years by always being on UHF. Washington is another market where PBS was on UHF and I believe it always did well.

But I would think KCET historically had fewer viewers than 13 in New York or 11 in Chicago or 9 in San Francisco.

I'm surprised the FCC didn't reserve a VHF for non commercial use in L.A. Always seemed odd that Los Angeles had 4 commercial VHF independents.
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Although it obviously never went through, at one point back in the seventies, when I think Metromedia or someone owned KTTV 11 there was a proposal by them to purchase KTLA 5 (which was apparently for sale at that time) whereby KTTV would put their facility on Channel 5, and the Ch 11 transmitter plant on Mount Wilson and possibly the Hollywood studio were to to be donated to KCET. And according to something I read long after this potential sale fell through, this explained why for months prior to this, KCET stopped displaying "Ch 28" on screen, no longer mentioning the channel number on air, and dropped it from all station IDs, identifying simply as: "KCET Los Angeles", in apparent anticipation of possibly moving to Ch 11.

If anyone has more info on this it would be appreciated, as I'm not quite sure it's accurate.

Also, during this same time period there was a rumor circulating about a proposal from KMEX Ch 34 to purchase KCOP (Ch 13) in an attempt to get their Spanish language facility on VHF. Just wondering whether or not this was true...

BTW all 7 channels in LA were snapped very quickly after WWII because after all this was "Hollywood" and the motion picture industry was eager to get involved in Television for shear competitive reasons, Paramount, and Warner Brothers being prime examples. The newspaper LA Times owned one and the three major nets the time ABC CBS and NBC would each own a station so there you go...
 
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TheBigA said:
As I recall, Channel 13 in NY was originally a commercial station, and went non-commercial in the early 60s.
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It was a commerical license in Newark NJ (still the COL) owned by NTA donated to the educational group that signed on WNDT 13. They also owned an FM at 94.7, also licensed to Newark, that was donated to Family Radio.
 
Nathan Obral said:
It was a commerical license in Newark NJ (still the COL) owned by NTA donated to the educational group that signed on WNDT 13. They also owned an FM at 94.7, also licensed to Newark, that was donated to Family Radio.
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NTA didn't donate anything. It got a market value of $6 million for channel 13 in 1961, though about $2 million of that was paid for from donations from other commercial stations.

94.7 wasn't donated, either. It was sold to another commercial group that ran it as WJRZ-FM. Family began leasing airtime there in 1964 and bought it outright in 1966.
 
fybush said:
NTA didn't donate anything. It got a market value of $6 million for channel 13 in 1961, though about $2 million of that was paid for from donations from other commercial stations.

94.7 wasn't donated, either. It was sold to another commercial group that ran it as WJRZ-FM. Family began leasing airtime there in 1964 and bought it outright in 1966.
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Thank you, Scott. I don't know why I forgot to look up these things before posting. 🤦🏼‍♂️
 
TomásEstefan said:
Although it obviously never went through, at one point back in the seventies, when I think Metromedia or someone owned KTTV 11 there was a proposal by them to purchase KTLA 5 (which was apparently for sale at that time) whereby KTTV would put their facility on Channel 5, and the Ch 11 transmitter plant on Mount Wilson and possibly the Hollywood studio were to to be donated to KCET. And according to something I read long after this potential sale fell through, this explained why for months prior to this, KCET stopped displaying "Ch 28" on screen, no longer mentioning the channel number on air, and dropped it from all station IDs, identifying simply as: "KCET Los Angeles", in apparent anticipation of possibly moving to Ch 11.
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My father was a local television executive in the 1960s and 70s, and I remember him saying the lower (Ch.6 and below) VHF channels were much more desirable because they had less "ghosting." That was back when most viewers did not have cable.
 
Signal Geek said:
My father was a local television executive in the 1960s and 70s, and I remember him saying the lower (Ch.6 and below) VHF channels were much more desirable because they had less "ghosting." That was back when most viewers did not have cable.
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This is true to a certain extent as low band VHF frequencies are somewhat less affected by terrain than the high band (7-13) VHF and much less affected than UHF. UHF transmissions behave much more like "light".
 
TomásEstefan said:
Although it obviously never went through, at one point back in the seventies, when I think Metromedia or someone owned KTTV 11 there was a proposal by them to purchase KTLA 5 (which was apparently for sale at that time) whereby KTTV would put their facility on Channel 5, and the Ch 11 transmitter plant on Mount Wilson and possibly the Hollywood studio were to to be donated to KCET. And according to something I read long after this potential sale fell through, this explained why for months prior to this, KCET stopped displaying "Ch 28" on screen, no longer mentioning the channel number on air, and dropped it from all station IDs, identifying simply as: "KCET Los Angeles", in apparent anticipation of possibly moving to Ch 11.

If anyone has more info on this it would be appreciated, as I'm not quite sure it's accurate.

Also, during this same time period there was a rumor circulating about a proposal from KMEX Ch 34 to purchase KCOP (Ch 13) in an attempt to get their Spanish language facility on VHF. Just wondering whether or not this was true...

BTW all 7 channels in LA were snapped very quickly after WWII because after all this was "Hollywood" and the motion picture industry was eager to get involved in Television for shear competitive reasons, Paramount, and Warner Brothers being prime examples. The newspaper LA Times owned one and the three major nets the time ABC CBS and NBC would each own a station so there you go...
Click to expand...

Hard as it is to believe, Gene Autry was losing money at KTLA, and in 1970, started exploring options. Among them was selling Channel 5 to Metromedia, which would donate KTTV to KCET. I'm sure he was glad he rode that out---12 years later, he got $245 million for it.

I had not heard about a KMEX-KCOP deal, but that doesn't mean it wasn't explored. 13 was always for sale if the price was right.

And you're right---the reason for the lack of VHF space in L.A. for an educational channel was that allocations were all spoken for before the FCC (or most anybody) had really contemplated educational television.
 
Michael, you have answered my question.

I did not know that it wasn’t until 1952 that the FCC set aside channels for educational television in the table of allotments.

Also did not realize that all 7 L.A. VHF stations signed on the air before 1950.
 
TomásEstefan said:
Although it obviously never went through, at one point back in the seventies, when I think Metromedia or someone owned KTTV 11 there was a proposal by them to purchase KTLA 5 (which was apparently for sale at that time) whereby KTTV would put their facility on Channel 5, and the Ch 11 transmitter plant on Mount Wilson and possibly the Hollywood studio were to to be donated to KCET. And according to something I read long after this potential sale fell through, this explained why for months prior to this, KCET stopped displaying "Ch 28" on screen, no longer mentioning the channel number on air, and dropped it from all station IDs, identifying simply as: "KCET Los Angeles", in apparent anticipation of possibly moving to Ch 11.

If anyone has more info on this it would be appreciated, as I'm not quite sure it's accurate.

Also, during this same time period there was a rumor circulating about a proposal from KMEX Ch 34 to purchase KCOP (Ch 13) in an attempt to get their Spanish language facility on VHF. Just wondering whether or not this was true...

BTW all 7 channels in LA were snapped very quickly after WWII because after all this was "Hollywood" and the motion picture industry was eager to get involved in Television for shear competitive reasons, Paramount, and Warner Brothers being prime examples. The newspaper LA Times owned one and the three major nets the time ABC CBS and NBC would each own a station so there you go...
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Also there was a KTHE Los Angeles which was owned by the University of Southern California it was the earliest known UHF TV stations in Los Angeles and signed on in 1953 but it was determined that it was not financially viable due to the issues over TV's not required to receive at that time. Yes KTHE Los Angeles is the first public television station in Los Angeles but that gets forgotten due to its short lived history and another group called "Community Education Television" didn't get a second attempt for Public Television in Los Angeles until 1964 when they launched KCET Los Angeles on the former KTHE Signal. Note that is overshadowed with KQED San Francisco, KVIE Sacramento and KVCR San Bernardino credited for being some of the first Public Television Stations in California.

History of UHF Television

uhfhistory.com uhfhistory.com


USC's campus newspaper, the Daily Trojan, reported that channel 28 began broadcast operations November 30, 1953 (which was technically true; although the Times and the industry's trade publications all reported the previous evening's dedication ceremonies as the official start, regular scheduled programming did not begin until the next day). KTHE was not only the first educational UHF in the nation ... it was the first UHF, period, in Los Angeles; John Poole's KBIC-TV on channel 22 was still installing its new transmitter at Mount Wilson and did not begin its infamous continuous test pattern transmission until the following month. In a market where viewers were long accustomed to having seven strong VHF signals available for watching, a few hours a night of educational programming on KTHE (coupled with the lack of actual programming on KBIC-TV) provided little incentive to purchase UHF conversion equipment for their television sets.

Commissioner Hennock was invited to speak at the dinner preceding the dedication ceremonies, calling channel 28 "The Schoolhouse of the Air" and KTHE proceeded with a daily operating schedule beginning at 7:00pm and continuing most nights until 9:30pm. This typical week's schedule was included in a Broadcasting special report on educational television published in July 1954:
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KVIE - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

KQED (TV) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

KVCR-DT - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
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briancraig said:
Michael, you have answered my question.

I did not know that it wasn’t until 1952 that the FCC set aside channels for educational television in the table of allotments.

Also did not realize that all 7 L.A. VHF stations signed on the air before 1950.
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KTLA Ch 5 signed on January, 1947 first licensed commercial TV station on the West Coast...
 
Y2kTheNewOldies said:
Also there was a KTHE Los Angeles which was owned by the University of Southern California it was the earliest known UHF TV stations in Los Angeles and signed on in 1953 but it was determined that it was not financially viable due to the issues over TV's not required to receive at that time. Yes KTHE Los Angeles is the first public television station in Los Angeles but that gets forgotten due to its short lived history and another group called "Community Education Television" didn't get a second attempt for Public Television in Los Angeles until 1964 when they launched KCET Los Angeles on the former KTHE Signal. Note that is overshadowed with KQED San Francisco, KVIE Sacramento and KVCR San Bernardino credited for being some of the first Public Television Stations in California.

History of UHF Television

uhfhistory.com uhfhistory.com




KVIE - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

KQED (TV) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

KVCR-DT - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
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If I remember correctly the "CET" actually stood for "Cultural Educational Television" And yes KVCR-TV predated KCET by about 2 years.
 
Greg Strickland said:
I'd say in a car with a good radio, in the absence of terrain blockage and incoming interference, KPCC should be listenable in Orange County, with a bit of high blend on some radios. Yes, a lot of qualifiers. But consider due to terrain blockage there are places in Orange County where higher power Mount Wilson stations have greatly reduced signal.

I think the most interesting takeaway from this is KPCC is the only Class B station on Mount Wilson that is Class B facility compliant.
(Scott Fybush jump in here and correct me if I missed something.) That shows the magic of Mount Wilson is having enough ERP to overcome distance and take advantage of the phenomenal line of sight to most of the LA basin. Even so, Mount Wilson has image significant areas in LA that are terrain blocked. That is where KPCC goes away, but the grandfathered stations hang in there.

The Class B compliant stations on Verdugo and Briarcrest (Hollywood Hills) have the juice problem. That is, not enough ERP to make the distance, and less height than Wilson. However, Verdugo and Briarcrest do not have significant terrain blockage in San Fernando Valley.

Despite all that, it is still LA, home of so many talented people. Every one of those signals is a wonderful thing.
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When KSCA 101.9 first moved to Mt Wilson it was class B compliant with a little over 600 watts, but eventually was allowed to increase its power to the present day nearly 5 kW. I think might be the lowest power commercial station on Wilson. Before Mt Wilson this station as KUTE was a "Superpower Class B" from Flint Peak (1100+ HAAT) with 82 kW.

And by the way KYSR 98.7 on Briarcrest is a Superpower class B station with 75 kW at 1100ft+ HAAT.
 
If I didn't mention this earlier- As I recall, on analog FM beyond about 10 miles from Mount Wilson KPCC was a handy line of sight checker to Mount Wilson. If you could clearly hear KPCC your receiver location had a sufficiently unobstructed propagation path from Mount Wilson.

Is KPCC running mono with pilot off when broadcasting mono programming?

Like many others I marveled at the steady, even, signal propagation from Mount Wilson to unobstructed areas of the market. The analog TV and FM audience in the LA basin really got first class reception. Millions of TV viewers had perfect line of sight from any reasonable antenna. Spoiled rotten compared to rural America and their snowy pictures.

Very subjectively, I thought Mount Wilson FM analog signals had a distinctive sound. Some say there are inversion and Brewster angle considerations from Mount Wilson. I did not hear this in the close-in areas where I listened. I did hear San Diego propagating in from time to time on the south side of the Hollywood Hills at higher elevation than the basin.

FM analog has it good in LA. Elsewhere in the country terrain results in Class B stations going into high blend 25 miles out. Here in the NE incoming interference can propagate in, impairing analog listening experience within Class B 54 dBu protected contour.
 
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kevtronics said:
How do you even pronounce that? "L.A.-ist"? "Los Angelist"? "Laist", rhymes with "waist"?
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In a market with such a huge ethnic and immigrant population, a name that is even confusing/weird/peculiar/strange/odd for native English speakers seems to be a poor choice.

From a personal perspective, I find the name to lack warmth and appeal. It sounds like those "mix and match syllables" used by companies in China for consumer product brands. It is not inviting, and invites immediate "WTF" comments. I can just imagine a room full of pseudo-intellectuals sitting around coming up with names they think are ultra somethingorother. Translation: the name is stupid.
 
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