KPHX 1480 SIGNAL AND PATTERN NEEDS IMPROVEMENT

[KFNNradioFan]

Again as with KFNN 1510, another talk station with inferior coverage that perhaps could be improved. When the so called "progressive" talk format was on 1190kHz, the 12+ ratings more than doubled (well, it was a simulcast on both 1190 and 1480 then). Nevertheless, 1190 has a fantastic signal both day and night, with a directional signal out of Tolleson making it up to Sedona and beyond. The issue with 1190 is protecting Albuquerque and Portland, Oregon.

I don't know who 1480 protects but I'm sure the list is very long. 1480's issue is inferior coverage in an arc from Mesa to Scottsdale up to Cave Creek and the North Valley.

Again, as with KFNN, how about more towers, and perhaps 25kW daytime; 10kW critical hours; 1kW overnight ?

Or, moving the tower site north if this can't be accomplished?

 

[davideduardo]

Nevertheless, 1190 has a fantastic signal both day and night, with a directional signal out of Tolleson making it up to Sedona and beyond. The issue with 1190 is protecting Albuquerque and Portland, Oregon.

Daytime 1190 is adequate, although not super in the eastern parts of the market, putting a 5 mv/m over about 70% of the population. At night, it misses 80% of the population with its usable interfernce free signal. It's basically not a useful or viable night signal, and not fully competitive daytime by virtue of limited coverage and because it is an AM.

1190 is not useful in Yavapi or Coconino counties.

1190's night protection is mostly Portland and Guadalajara, the dominant signals there.

I don't know who 1480 protects but I'm sure the list is very long. 1480's issue is inferior coverage in an arc from Mesa to Scottsdale up to Cave Creek and the North Valley. Again, as with KFNN, how about more towers, and perhaps 25kW daytime; 10kW critical hours; 1kW overnight ?

Yes, the station has many protection requirements in the US and Mexico. Second, it is a high band AM, so it has a second disadvantage. And in today's radio environment where in sales demos KTAR FM smashes KFYI, who is going to spend millions improving a very limited high band AM signal?

 

[KeithE4]

Nevertheless, 1190 has a fantastic signal both day and night, with a directional signal out of Tolleson making it up to Sedona and beyond. The issue with 1190 is protecting Albuquerque and Portland, Oregon.

Who cares if it makes it to Sedona? It is a Phoenix radio station with no coverage to the East Valley at night.

I don't know who 1480 protects but I'm sure the list is very long. 1480's issue is inferior coverage in an arc from Mesa to Scottsdale up to Cave Creek and the North Valley.

IE, where the money is, there is no coverage. KPHX covers the central city, again with no East Valley coverage.

Again, as with KFNN, how about more towers, and perhaps 25kW daytime; 10kW critical hours; 1kW overnight ?

Or, moving the tower site north if this can't be accomplished?

Or not.

 

[johndavis]

Nevertheless, 1190 has a fantastic signal both day and night, with a directional signal out of Tolleson making it up to Sedona and beyond. The issue with 1190 is protecting Albuquerque and Portland, Oregon.

Who cares if it makes it to Sedona? It is a Phoenix radio station with no coverage to the East Valley at night.

I don't know who 1480 protects but I'm sure the list is very long. 1480's issue is inferior coverage in an arc from Mesa to Scottsdale up to Cave Creek and the North Valley.

IE, where the money is, there is no coverage. KPHX covers the central city, again with no East Valley coverage.

Again, as with KFNN, how about more towers, and perhaps 25kW daytime; 10kW critical hours; 1kW overnight ?

Or, moving the tower site north if this can't be accomplished?

Or not.

As with 1230, Phoenix has outgrown KPHX's signal. Not much you can do about an AM station on a garbage frequency like that other than run it cheap and/or broker out as many hours as you can to keep the cash coming in.

Let's look at the economics of moving an AM signal. Example: back when Jorgenson owned 1230 and 550, he studied moving 1230's transmitter to the 550 site and diplexing it. That would have effectively killed what little night signal 1230 had, to the point that you couldn't keep it licensed to Phoenix. The best you could do was change the COL to Tempe. Whatever money you would have saved closing down a transmitter site in a lousy part of town you'd lose in the overall value of the station because the coverage would have been reduced... and let's face it, it's not like people were lining up to buy that piece of land, either.

Given how crammed together stations are in the upper reaches of the AM band, anytime you move a signal, you're generally shifting interference from one part of the listening area to another, and most of the time you're just making it worse. Even when the distance between site A and B isn't that great (remember 960 before Chauncey kicked them off his ranch?) moving an AM usually does more harm than good unless you want to go buy up the stations you're supposed to protect and modify/silence them. Not worth the effort.

The best thing that could happen to the AM band is to flush the whole thing down the drain and start over in a new chunk of spectrum.

 

[flashman1]

Glad to know the technical stuff behind that awful signal. I live in south Chandler and it's gone after sunset--and most of the daytime sounds like a carrier wave, even on my most DX-friendly radio.

And of course, there's the programming issue. Weekdays are fine, except of course I can't hear Mike Malloy in the evening. Weekends are something else; the "Filipino Talk" and gold infomercials are truly lousy. Add to that the fact that every other commercial seems to be one of Newcomb's businesses (hospice and doctors on call). I wonder if history will repeat itself a la the Air America/Nova M fiascoes?

I listen to the station because I need a counterpoint to the right wing crap, and for when NPR isn't boring me to tears. It's a shame that liberal talk radio isn't profitable--it would be nice to hear quality programming on a good signal.

 

[KFNNradioFan]

It's a shame that liberal talk radio isn't profitable--it would be nice to hear quality programming on a good signal.

it is profitable at KGO / San Francisco since the hosts are not preachy, as you mentioned in your other post.

It was profitable at KIRO / Seattle w/ Entercom.

Air America, Jones, Dial Global, etc. seem to lack commitment to liberal syndication. They've had the same hosts for many years (schultz, hartmann, rhodes, malloy, miller). Liberal syndicated stations with 0.3 to 1.5 12+ shares are unacceptable. It's time to get some new syndicated "progressive" hosts to freshen the lineup. The conservative networks do this all the time, adding Glenn Beck, Dennis Miller, Lou Dobbs, and various FOX N/T hosts.

And, all-liberal stations would be wise to add some conservatives/independents in order to get the other side in their cume such as Lou Dobbs. There is no reason that a liberal station has to be all liberal all the time. Conservative stations aren't all conservative all the times, they often include independents Brinker, Jerry Doyle, and Lou Dobbs.

Do ANY liberal stations carry independent Lou Dobbs?

 

[DrAkbar]

Spotty coverage day...even worser at night. But where else on the Ancient Modulation dial could you hear Airhead America; All Comedy Radio; Music of Your Grandparent's Life and Martini In The Morning on the same frequency?

 

[smedge2006]

Air America, Jones, Dial Global, etc. seem to lack commitment to liberal syndication. They've had the same hosts for many years (schultz, hartmann, rhodes, malloy, miller).

To the contrary -- Air America lost promising young hosts early on (Young Turks, Sam Seder) and the lineup changed quite frequently. It's good there's been some stability for a while. Remember, liberal talk as a format has only existed for all practical purposes for five years (i.e. america never really counted). By comparison, there isn't a prominent conservative host in syndication right now (as opposed to second and third tier hosts like Dennis Miller) who wasn't already in syndication in 2004.

Liberal syndicated stations with 0.3 to 1.5 12+ shares are unacceptable.

Given the signals most of them are on, I'd say they're darned good and far better than the high-end, low-power AMs that most of them are have a right to expect. You couldn't get a two share on KPHX if it had Limbaugh and Beck. Yes, its share is lower than KFYI's or KTAR's. But somehow Salem manages to make a buck with numbers that are much smaller in many markets. (For example, Salem's Tampa station fell behind the local equivalent of KFNX in the November PPM's.)

Everything that has happened to kill liberal talk stations around the country has happened in Phoenix. 1010 was sold to a politically hostile owner (Communicom), then came the 1190 Nova M fiasco. The fact that it is on at all is a testament to the dedication of the core audience. 1480 should be finding ways to engage that audience and monetize it. Perhaps it should beat Huffington Post to the punch and start a local progressive blog site for Phoenix (Salem of course owns Townhall.com). Perhaps it should stage events for that audience.

It's time to get some new syndicated "progressive" hosts to freshen the lineup. The conservative networks do this all the time, adding Glenn Beck, Dennis Miller, Lou Dobbs, and various FOX N/T hosts.

Glenn Beck is not a new face -- he has been in syndication since 2002 with plenty of ups and downs over that time. He's been on, off, and back on again at several stations, including WTVN, WGST and WIOD. Miller and Dobbs are second tier and none of the hosts syndicated by Fox News/Talk amount to anything.

And, all-liberal stations would be wise to add some conservatives/independents in order to get the other side in their cume such as Lou Dobbs. There is no reason that a liberal station has to be all liberal all the time. Conservative stations aren't all conservative all the times, they often include independents Brinker, Jerry Doyle, and Lou Dobbs.

Other than Brinker, I wouldn't dare put any of the names you mentioned on a liberal talker. To call them independents as though they occupy the middle ground between right and left is misleading. Doyle and Dobbs are more like conservative outliers. Anyone who entertains "birther" theories and rants about "Obamacare" isn't an "independent". About the only issue progressives might agree with Dobbs on is trade -- and then only some progressives of the Thom Hartmann/ labor-friendly stripe. That's an issue that divides both sides of the aisle.

Libertarians like Doyle are outliers on economic issues -- actually placing them ideologically farther away from liberals than mainstream conservatives are. The equivalent would be calling Mike Malloy an "independent" because he's farther out there than most liberal hosts. Imagine the response if KFYI or KTAR tried that one! Again, the only reason KPHX is on the air is the dedication of its core -- why drive them away, which is what you would do running Dobbs or Doyle.

If you want to draw conservative listeners in, one way to do it is to have a "conservatives only" call-in day (perhaps Saturday when the other stations are in infomercials and specialty shows) and invite right-wing callers in for the hosts to bat down their talking points. Conservatives will listen to see if a caller can ding the host, and liberals will listen for the host to slam 'em down. The late Bob Lassiter, of Tampa, Miami, and Chicago, was a master at this kind of radio.

I appreciate your comments about KGO and KIRO but both are a mixed bag ideologically and both are facing challenges.

 

[smedge2006]

Why do liberal stations usually not include Alan Colmes?

The same reason few conservative stations clear Joe Scarborough's radio show. Both are perceived as "traitors" because they are on the "other side's" cable network. Colmes more so, because he allowed himself to be Hannity's punching bag for 12 years. One viewpoint I've heard from liberals is that they're tired of a strident, down-the-line conservative being paired with a watered-down, centrist leaning "liberal" and having that represent the whole spectrum of debate in America. The lefty has to collapse and compromise, the conservative doesn't. If they hear the liberal talk station they've sweated blood and tears to support doing that, they'll leave. Pure and simple.

KGO has problems with aging demos. KIRO is certainly far from Number 1 after moving to FM. It's not even in the top 10. You know this because you posted over there. One of its problems is from doing what you suggest for struggling liberal talkers -- picking up more conservative hosts.

The argument that "liberal talk can't work in a conservative town" is ultimately as silly as arguing that conservative talk can't succeed in New York or San Francisco. Liberals living in such an environment would feel besieged and happy to have a retreat from the constant badgering.

Satellite dishes hooked up to transmitters and automation won't find much of an audience no matter what their ideological slant. Conservative talk launched in the 80's from a base of locally-programmed stations and found it's A-list stars organically. Liberal talk needs more local hours and more local hosts to find its breakout stars.

The argument that one must "kiss up" to conservatives to draw them as listeners is also suspect. Offering them the chance to "knock his block off" is one way to get them without

Lou Dobbs is not exactly moving the needle on ANY of the stations he's on.

See the discussion on Randi Rhodes on the N/T board. She appears to be moving toward the center and is losing some of the affiliates who stuck with her through thick and thin including the Nova M collapse.

The all-liberal format needs a better signal to garner KFYI-style numbers. If that's not in the offing, find ways to make money with the available signal and hope for better opportunities as stations come on the market.

 

[Bill Drake]

Let's pass on DE's sterling analysis because as usual he is orbiting another realm.

Liberal talk radio has been a disaster since its launch in Phoenix. Thom Hartmann has repeatedly stated what it takes to make liberal talk work - putting mouth breathers like Lou KKK Dobbs on to "balance" things out is NOT a solution. Same for Alan Colmes. How any reasoned thinking person could sit next to Sean Vanity for all those years without punching him out speaks miles about Colmes' credentials as a so-called "progressive."

If the format could stay on a decent signal for a reasonable length of time then it might have a chance.

1190 would have been just fine, as would 1100 or even 1230. At this point, even 1060 would be better than 1480 which is the garbage dump of AM frequencies. KPHX throws all of its daytime signal away from the city. And nights; well I never have figured that out. Unless they are using coat hangars for ground wires. It's so entertaining to try listening a scant 11 miles from their Durango Curve Suite and have to deal with a border blaster from old Mexico on 1470 and the Korean talk on 1480 from So. Cal.

With very few exceptions, liberal talk radio across the nation gets the crappiest signals. Plus it does take a little initiative (that concept died out of radio about 20 years ago) to do something new rather than just following the herd.

How long did KFYI languish in the dung heap before the dead enders flocked to it like flies to -- you know what... And even now I see the mighty 550 is slipping down the ladder. About time. How long can the same ten talking points be barked out 24/7? Oh yes; I forgot about their audience.....

There's a fundamental psychological difference between conservative and liberal listeners (and their brains). Conservatives need to be told every minute of every day what to think and who to hate. It's a fundamental fact of their existence.

I would direct anyone to look at the statistics regarding the so-called "red" states versus "blue" states. The "red" states are essentially all welfare states, meaning they get more money from the government than they contribute in revenue. The red states also all hover at he bottom in all quality of life issues. This is not a political statement; it is a statement of fact.

And it would not be proper to fail to mention that Mike Newcomb and his crew (of one?) are not radio people. Burying Ed Schultz at 9:00PM so we can hear the good doctor's feeble attempt at playing talk jock has to be the mistake of the new Era. Especially when Newcomb is in repeats over and over and over.....

I give KPHX six more months before it goes back to the “Lounge Sound.”

Of course someone here already posted that the whole AM band should be flushed and restarted. It’s so congested now (and this was at the broadcaster’s request) that essentially all radio is local radio. Pretty bad when I can’t get a decent night signal from KFI (gotta hear Art Bell rattling on from his own padded cell) because of all the 250 watt stations operating on the same frequency.

 

[DrAkbar]

How long did KFYI languish in the dung heap before the dead enders flocked to it like flies to -- you know what... And even now I see the mighty 550 is slipping down the ladder. About time. How long can the same ten talking points be barked out 24/7?

KFWhyEye has never been on a dung heap since they started in 1995 on 9~Ten. The audience erosion has been in 25-54 due to KT'R being on FM. Nurse Jeff and I've advised the Clear Channel suits to get off Ancient Modulation and take over 95~Five for the past three years. You can tell how much influence we've had

I give KPHX six more months before it goes back to the “Lounge Sound.”

Brad "Martini" Chambers can't afford the rent. Let's face it, Progressive radio as done on 14~Eighty wouldn't have much more of an audience even if it was on 8~Sixty, 9~Ten, 9~Sixty, 10~Ten, 11~ Hundred, 11~Ninety, 12~Thirty or any another AM with a better signal.

 

[DrAkbar]

KFWhyEye has never been on a dung heap since they started in 1995 on 9~Ten.

Ooops...make that 1985.

 

[johndavis]

How long did KFYI languish in the dung heap before the dead enders flocked to it like flies to -- you know what... And even now I see the mighty 550 is slipping down the ladder. About time. How long can the same ten talking points be barked out 24/7?

KFWhyEye has never been on a dung heap since they started in 1995 on 9~Ten. The audience erosion has been in 25-54 due to KT'R being on FM. Nurse Jeff and I've advised the Clear Channel suits to get off Ancient Modulation and take over 95~Five for the past three years. You can tell how much influence we've had

I don't recall Mickie Padorr, Jack Cole, Tom Leykis, Bob Mohan, John Dayl, or even Barry Young making much headway against KTAR back in the day. As I recall, the station didn't really take off until they plucked an obscure talk show named "The Rush Limbaugh Show" from KAMJ where nobody listened to it and stuck it in middays on the big 910 right before he blew up nationwide. Before that, KFYI's only identity was being the "other" news/talk station.

But let's face it, you could move 550 to 95.5 tomorrow (or this afternoon if the VistaMax crashes again and does it for you) and you'd still bleed 25-54 with the current lineup. It needs more than a new frequency, it needs modernization.

So, do you keep running a NAC format that may not be the cash cow it once was but costs virtually nothing to run or do you spend the money necessary to do FM talk well and try to find something else on 550 that would at least match KYOT's billing?

There's your answer.

 

[DrAkbar]

I don't recall Mickie Padorr, Jack Cole, Tom Leykis, Bob Mohan, John Dayl, or even Barry Young making much headway against KTAR back in the day. As I recall, the station didn't really take off until they plucked an obscure talk show named "The Rush Limbaugh Show" from KAMJ where nobody listened to it and stuck it in middays on the big 910 right before he blew up nationwide. Before that, KFYI's only identity was being the "other" news/talk station.

KFWhyEye has always been a thorn in the rear end of KT'R. When Rush came along in the early 90's, that was the turning point for passionate talk radio (KFWhyEye) vs topic driven toaster talk (KT'R). While KFWhyEye won a number of ratings battles at 9~Ten, it was their move to the much better Ancient Modulation frequency of 5~Fifty that saw them really take off. (a bunch of inept GM's and PD's at KT'R didn't hurt matters!) And up until PPM, KFWhyEye beat KT'R-FM in the money demos.

But let's face it, you could move 550 to 95.5 tomorrow (or this afternoon if the VistaMax crashes again and does it for you) and you'd still bleed 25-54 with the current lineup. It needs more than a new frequency, it needs modernization.

Bet they'd do better in 25-54 even without "modernizing" the line-up!

So, do you keep running a NAC format that may not be the cash cow it once was but costs virtually nothing to run or do you spend the money necessary to do FM talk well and try to find something else on 550 that would at least match KYOT's billing?

The future of NAC in a PPM market does not look good. KFWhyEye can out bill KYOT on FM, but can't duplicate the revenue of both 5~Fifty and 95~Five. And that's why Clear Channel will keep KFWhyEye on Ancient Modulation as long as they can. The Buckeye Boyz think it's a losing strategy.


Back To Topic: can you hear KPHX where you are??

 

[flashman1]

Back To Topic: can you hear KPHX where you are??
[/quote]

Nope, O Imam of Ancient Modulation. Guess I either have to a) move to South Phoenix or b) join their investor's club I have the over on their latest demise on the end of February.

 

[johndavis]

The future of NAC in a PPM market does not look good. KFWhyEye can out bill KYOT on FM, but can't duplicate the revenue of both 5~Fifty and 95~Five. And that's why Clear Channel will keep KFWhyEye on Ancient Modulation as long as they can. The Buckeye Boyz think it's a losing strategy.

If your debt ratios look like those at Clear Channel, Citadel, Cumulus, or Radio One (just to name a few) long term strategy won't do you any good if you can't survive the short term.

 

[michael hagerty]

How long did KFYI languish in the dung heap before the dead enders flocked to it like flies to -- you know what... And even now I see the mighty 550 is slipping down the ladder. About time. How long can the same ten talking points be barked out 24/7?

KFWhyEye has never been on a dung heap since they started in 1995 on 9~Ten. The audience erosion has been in 25-54 due to KT'R being on FM. Nurse Jeff and I've advised the Clear Channel suits to get off Ancient Modulation and take over 95~Five for the past three years. You can tell how much influence we've had

I don't recall Mickie Padorr, Jack Cole, Tom Leykis, Bob Mohan, John Dayl, or even Barry Young making much headway against KTAR back in the day. As I recall, the station didn't really take off until they plucked an obscure talk show named "The Rush Limbaugh Show" from KAMJ where nobody listened to it and stuck it in middays on the big 910 right before he blew up nationwide. Before that, KFYI's only identity was being the "other" news/talk station.

Incredibly, someone online archived those columns I wrote for the now-defunct Radio-Digest.com 9 and 10 years ago. The spring, 2000 Arbitrons (12+) show KTAR #2 with a 5.9 and KFYI 7th with a 4.5.

BUT...in the winter '99/'00 book, it was KTAR with a 4.8 and KFYI with a 4.5.

An unbylined Arizona Republic piece about the Winter '97/'98 book has 'FYI beating KTAR 4.7 to 4.0.

 

[johndavis]

Incredibly, someone online archived those columns I wrote for the now-defunct Radio-Digest.com 9 and 10 years ago. The spring, 2000 Arbitrons (12+) show KTAR #2 with a 5.9 and KFYI 7th with a 4.5.

BUT...in the winter '99/'00 book, it was KTAR with a 4.8 and KFYI with a 4.5.

An unbylined Arizona Republic piece about the Winter '97/'98 book has 'FYI beating KTAR 4.7 to 4.0.

Sounds about right. Mid to late 80's, KFYI trailed, badly, and went through a ton of hosts. The station flipped ideological positions a couple of times. For awhile it was the anti-Mecham station (remember when Ev accused KFYI of trying to listen in to his conversations with his lawyer duing the impeachment? Never mind it was the processing.) Then it became "Mecham country" and Ev got his own show for a week.

Around 1991 it started getting interesting, and by the late 90's they were neck & neck if not beating KTAR outright consistently. But KFYI took a few years to find its way.