KRTH 101 Classic Hits

[oldies76]

Checking out the K-Earth 101 playlist log and they have really improved of late. I am surprised on some of their selections, but it shows that Jhani Kaye is willing to venture a bit into the "vault" and play some good gems from the past, some of which I believe have not been played in a long time!

For a Friday, some songs noted today from the log:

11:04am "Let the Music Play" - Shannon (1984)
11:23am "Up Up and Away" - Fifth Dimension (1967)
12:06pm "Love Will Find A Way" - Pablo Cruise (1978)
12:26pm "Disco Lady" - Johnnie Taylor (1976)
12:33pm "Wildflower" - Skylark (1973)
12:48pm "Denise" - Randy & the Rainbows (1963)
1:39pm "Do You Really Want to Hurt Me" - Culture Club (1983)
2:05pm "So In To You" - Atlanta Rhythm Section (1977)
3:07pm "Afternoon Delight" - Starland Vocal Band (1976)
3:47pm "Fingertips" - Stevie Wonder (1963)
5:23pm "Show and Tell" - Al Wilson (1974)
6:40pm "Why Can't We Live Together" - Timmy Thomas (1973)
6:52pm "Bette Davis Eyes" - Kim Carnes (1981)
8:10pm "Together" - Tierra (1980)
8:52pm "Strawberry Letter #23" - Brothers Johnson (1977)

Also noted that KRTH is still throwing out 3-5 1960's songs every hour, some of them pre-1964's.
Even though these 60's songs are the common KRTH classics always heard, it goes to show that this music is still testing well, even into 2013! Hope the trend continues. All we need now are some true in-depth specialty weekends.

 

[RIN3GUY]

KRTH really is a great station, oldies. I wish KJMK here in Joplin Mo. would take a lesson from them. KRTH runs circles around most every other station I have ever encountered for both quality and variety. I haven't heard any Eric Carmen or Raspberries yet (or Bay City Rollers), but otherwise I would have no complaints at all if their playlist were on our local station. It would be a vast improvement! Here are my 10 best suggestions of respectable to major '70s hits for KRTH (& KJMK) to add to their lists:

1. Whatever Gets You Thru the Night - John Lennon & Elton John
2. SOS - ABBA
3. Games People Play - Spinners
4. You Made Me Believe in Magic - Bay City Rollers
5. She Did It - Eric Carmen & the Beach Boys
6. Gettin' Ready For Love - Diana Ross
7. Bad Time - Grand Funk
8. Love Or Let Me Be Lonely - Friends of Distinction
9. Wham Bam - Silver
10. You & Me - Alice Cooper

 

[oldies76]

RIN3GUY,

I believe I've heard "Go All The Way" on KRTH before, but it would be nice to hear more Eric Carmen or that other great "lost hit" by the Raspberries "I Wanna Be With You". I don't believe any station you mentioned would play "All By Myself", just too emotional of a song.

Also the Friends of Distinction hit has been on KRTH before, along with their other gem "Grazing in the Grass" from 1969.

KRTH is a great station. I believe their specials are still "short-handed", meaning just a few songs per hour that actually relate to the theme, instead of all of them. Unfortunately KRTH left a bad impression in the 90's with their ultra-tight playlists and highly repetitive music and left me no choice but to look elsewhere. KRTH has improved of late. In fact I am hearing "Duke Of Earl" as I type! Another pre-'64 gem.

Nothing will ever top the KRTH of the early to mid 80's though, that time was so special...it's what got me into the music along with their timeless specials back then.

 

[michael hagerty]

Jhani's no slouch. And KRTH is doing exactly the right stuff for Los Angeles in 2013.

 

[davideduardo]

Jhani's no slouch. And KRTH is doing exactly the right stuff for Los Angeles in 2013.

But I don't think he has done enough.

Considering that the station was around 8th last May, and is now 12th in 25-54, they obviously have not moved fast enough to make the station more relevant to the sales demos.

When the Class A Spanish language classic hits station beats them by about a 30% margin, it's obvious that they are going to have to work on the format going into this year. Sister KTWV, down at 22nd, is in even more dire straits, so look for that one to be the subject of the most immediate attention, but KRTH needs some refocusing too.

 

[davideduardo]

KRTH really is a great station, oldies. I wish KJMK here in Joplin Mo. would take a lesson from them. .

And what could KRTH show KJMK? How to go from 3rd in 25-54 (where KJMK ranked in the Fall book) to 12th (where KRTH currently is)?

KJMK is one of the better performing stations of its type. KRTH is not.

 

[RIN3GUY]

KRTH really is a great station, oldies. I wish KJMK here in Joplin Mo. would take a lesson from them.

And what could KRTH show KJMK? How to go from 3rd in 25-54 (where KJMK ranked in the Fall book) to 12th (where KRTH currently is)?
KJMK is one of the better performing stations of its type. KRTH is not.

David,
Being #12 in a mega-market like L.A. has to be close to the equivalent of being #3 in a much smaller market like Joplin, Mo. KRTH's playlist is clearly FAR superior to KJMK's and every other "zombie" station I know. KRTH has a wide enough variety to prevent my ears from getting numb after just a few days. Here's what KJMK listeners are saying about their playlist on their Facebook page:

Shawn Moore
this is my favorite station but why do you play the same songs over and over?
Yesterday at 9:54am

You, Carol Bagwell Roll and Cindy Ford Kruse like this.

Les Rinehart -- Shawn, They do this because the national radio industry tells them that this is what we want. I have spent a lot of time trying to convince them that we DON'T. But they believe we want them to repeat their playlist every 36 hours and that if we don't hear all of our favorites burned to a crisp at least 4-5 times a week then we will tune out or switch stations. Crazy, huh?
16 hours ago · 1 Like

Carol Bagwell Roll -- I fully agree,Shawn & Les.. like the station, but the repetition is bad...."like "Bad LeRoy Brown","Sister Goldenhair","Margaritaville", & "American Pie" all good songs, but they have been played to death!
17 hours ago · 4 Likes

That's it, in a nutshell. What current listeners are telling the station right now should hold a lot more weight than what some potential listeners told a goofy testing company six months ago to get a free lunch!

 

[michael hagerty]

KRTH really is a great station, oldies. I wish KJMK here in Joplin Mo. would take a lesson from them.

And what could KRTH show KJMK? How to go from 3rd in 25-54 (where KJMK ranked in the Fall book) to 12th (where KRTH currently is)?
KJMK is one of the better performing stations of its type. KRTH is not.

David,
Being #12 in a mega-market like L.A. has to be close to the equivalent of being #3 in a much smaller market like Joplin, Mo. KRTH's playlist is clearly FAR superior to KJMK's and every other "zombie" station I know. KRTH has a wide enough variety to prevent my ears from getting numb after just a few days. Here's what KJMK listeners are saying about their playlist on their Facebook page:

Shawn Moore
this is my favorite station but why do you play the same songs over and over?
Unlike · · Yesterday at 9:54am

You, Carol Bagwell Roll and Cindy Ford Kruse like this.

Les Rinehart -- Shawn, They do this because the national radio industry tells them that is what we want. I have spent a lot of time trying to convince them that we DON'T. But they believe we want them to repeat their playlist every 36 hours and that if we don't hear all of our favorites burned to a crisp at least 4-5 times a week then we will tune out or switch stations. Crazy, huh?
16 hours ago · Edited · 1 Like

Carol Bagwell Roll -- I fully agree,Shawn & Les.. like the station, but the repetition is bad...."like "Bad LeRoy Brown","Sister Goldenhair","Margaritaville", & "American Pie" all good songs, but they have been played to death!
17 hours ago · Unlike · 4 Likes

What current listeners are telling the station right now should hold a lot more weight than what some potential listeners told a goofy testing company six months ago to get a free lunch!

David will correct me if I'm wrong, but if an ad agency only buys 25-54 10 stations deep, KRTH doesn't get the buy. Top 3 is a slam dunk.

As for what their listeners are telling them right now, that's three people, one of them appears to be you, and your comment includes assumptions that may or may not be true. As I said a month or so ago, if they've got the kind of promo budget you suggested, they may have in fact spent the bucks for statistically significant research.

And the goofy testing company/free lunch thing...c'mon. It's been explained time and again how thorough and statistically sound the right companies are.

 

[RIN3GUY]

David will correct me if I'm wrong, but if an ad agency only buys 25-54 10 stations deep, KRTH doesn't get the buy. Top 3 is a slam dunk.

As for what their listeners are telling them right now, that's three people, one of them appears to be you, and your comment includes assumptions that may or may not be true. As I said a month or so ago, if they've got the kind of promo budget you suggested, they may have in fact spent the bucks for statistically significant research.

And the goofy testing company/free lunch thing...c'mon. It's been explained time and again how thorough and statistically sound the right companies are.

Michael,
If ad agencies are dumb enough to buy 10 stations deep in tiny markets like Joplin, on the low end they may have an audience of a few dozen instead of KRTH's audience, which I'm sure is in the multiplied thousands.

If you will look at the "Likes," you will see that no less than 8 listeners echoed the same thought in just 17 hours' time. Factor that out for a statistical sample, would you?

Sorry, but the convolutions I have seen on music testing-generated playlists just does not convince me of the infallibility of their results. Can it be used as an indicator of some local preferences, perhaps to a degree yes, but even then I would still have to take it with a grain of salt, meaning common sense and musical sanity.

 

[michael hagerty]

David will correct me if I'm wrong, but if an ad agency only buys 25-54 10 stations deep, KRTH doesn't get the buy. Top 3 is a slam dunk.

As for what their listeners are telling them right now, that's three people, one of them appears to be you, and your comment includes assumptions that may or may not be true. As I said a month or so ago, if they've got the kind of promo budget you suggested, they may have in fact spent the bucks for statistically significant research.

And the goofy testing company/free lunch thing...c'mon. It's been explained time and again how thorough and statistically sound the right companies are.

Michael,
If ad agencies are dumb enough to buy 10 stations deep in tiny markets like Joplin, on the low end they may have an audience of a few dozen instead of KRTH's audience, which I'm sure is in the multiplied thousands.

If you will look at the "Likes," you will see that no less than 8 listeners echoed the same thought in just 17 hours' time. Factor that out for a statistical sample, would you?

Sorry, but the convolutions I have seen on music testing-generated playlists just does not convince me of the infallibility of their results. Can it be used as an indicator of some local preferences, perhaps to a degree yes, but even then I would still have to take it with a grain of salt, meaning common sense and musical sanity.

No, the agencies won't buy top 10 in Joplin. They will buy top 3.

8 people is impressive? Joplin's small but not that small.

 

[oldies76]

As for what their listeners are telling them right now, that's three people

And that's three people that happened to post a comment. Most people don't bother to complain and comment on websites. I am 110% positive that there are many, many more listeners that are tired of the same ole same ole, just as the ones RIN3GUY posted, but don't bother to post their opinions.

Ever been given one of those surveys at a retail store that mentions a discount or a chance of a prize on your next visit if you phone in and complete a survey?? VERY few people actually do that, less than 3 for every hundred handed out. I should know since I currently work retail. Most people just don't bother voicing opinions and that goes for complaints on station playlists.

They just let it ride, satisfied or not.

 

[michael hagerty]

As for what their listeners are telling them right now, that's three people

And that's three people that happened to post a comment. Most people don't bother to complain and comment on websites. I am 110% positive that there are many, many more listeners that are tired of the same ole same ole, just as the ones RIN3GUY posted, but don't bother to post their opinions.

Ever been given one of those surveys at a retail store that mentions a discount or a chance of a prize on your next visit if you phone in and complete a survey?? VERY few people actually do that, less than 3 for every hundred handed out. I should know since I currently work retail. Most people just don't bother voicing opinions and that goes for complaints on station playlists.

They just let it ride, satisfied or not.

As we've discussed before, active listeners (people who comment) are about 6% of your audience, max. Listen to them and you may be alienating the 94% who won't say a word...they'll either listen or leave.

 

[oldies76]

Some more gems played today (so far) on KRTH: These stand out more vs. the more frequent ones played daily.

7:49am "Call Me" - Chris Montez (1966)
8:34am "Love's Theme" - Love Unlimited Orchestra (1974)
9:55am "Afternoon Delight" - Starland Vocal Band (1976) That's twice in two days!!
10:31am "Heartbreak Hotel" - Elvis Presley (1956)
12:34pm "What You Won't Do For Love" - Bobby Caldwell (1979)
3:02pm "Walking in Rhythm" - Blackbyrds (1975)
3:52pm "Want Ads" - Honey Cone (1971)

And KRTH still digging into the 50's (heck even if it's just one song!)

 

[davideduardo]

David,
Being #12 in a mega-market like L.A. has to be close to the equivalent of being #3 in a much smaller market like Joplin, Mo. !

For agency business, 12th in LA means you get on some of the buys but not all of them. The ones that want some balance in the older end of the 25-54 will buy KRTH, others won't.

A buy may be 3 or 4 deep, 5 to 10 deep or even as deep as 10 to 12 in a key demo. But a lot of buys, while in 25-54 overall, are actually 25-44 Hispanic females or 25-54 men or some such. The stations with broad, centered numbers will tend to get on everything, while the ones that are on the old side will not.

In Joplin, a decent agency buy will certainly take into account reach and frequency, and that makes them have to buy 3, 4 even 5 stations. Since pricing is based on delivery, there is no reason not to go after the spectrum... a country station, a rock station, a CHR, a classic hits station, maybe an adult hits station.

In LA, buys may be more complicated as they have to look at the 43% of the market that is Hispanic and, in the sales demos, the 25% that does not listen in English.

 

[davideduardo]

As we've discussed before, active listeners (people who comment) are about 6% of your audience, max. Listen to them and you may be alienating the 94% who won't say a word...they'll either listen or leave.

In a gold based station, it's even less than 5% to 6%. These are listeners who come for the music and the mood... the flow and the blend... not the individual songs. If the flow is right, they stay. If it is disrupted by stiffs or needless jock chatter, they do not.

 

[davideduardo]

If ad agencies are dumb enough to buy 10 stations deep in tiny markets like Joplin, on the low end they may have an audience of a few dozen instead of KRTH's audience, which I'm sure is in the multiplied thousands.

The #8 commercial station in the Joplin TSA averages 4,900 AQH listeners ; for KRTH it is about 35,000. I'll bet KRTH's rates are more than 7 times higher than those of the Joplin station, too.

But the point is that, with a cume of 60 thousand in a market the size of Joplin, even the #8 station is a good buy.

If you will look at the "Likes," you will see that no less than 8 listeners echoed the same thought in just 17 hours' time. Factor that out for a statistical sample, would you?

There is, generally, no such thing as a statistical sample of people who self-recruit.

Sorry, but the convolutions I have seen on music testing-generated playlists just does not convince me of the infallibility of their results.

When properly designed, recruited, conducted and implemented, an AMT is virtually fooolproof.

Not all tests qualify as "good" tests but it is generally the fault of the station and its staff when things go wrong... the methodology is sound, proven tens of thousands of times over, and gets demonstrable ratings results.

 

[davideduardo]

What current listeners are telling the station right now should hold a lot more weight than what some potential listeners told a goofy testing company six months ago to get a free lunch!

You are "awfulizing" the testing of music by distortion of the facts.

Yes, people who attend tests often get a snack, sandwich or light buffet plus refreshments. But they also get an incentive.

The incentive often depends on the part of the country and the format. One format on Long Island requires a $150 payment for one evening and about 2 hours. In a smaller, easy-to-drive market, the incentive may be around $60 at the low end.

A double night test can pay $125 to $200 per person as incentive.

And that is if the person qualifies... a long process for which recruiters are paid another $75 to $125 per validated respondent on average.

And, of course, the research companies are not "goofy". That's an insult to the really qualified people who run them and work with them.

 

[RIN3GUY]

And, of course, the research companies are not "goofy". That's an insult to the really qualified people who run them and work with them.

I predicate my "goofy" assessment not on the professionals themselves but just to describe the frequently skewed playlists that are derived from the results that this kind of information produces. What might they recommend when hundreds of songs have ambiguous or borderline results? Or barely above their cutoff, or just a hair below their cutoff? Next is the "treadmill" straitjacket playlist recommendation, circulating most qualifying songs equally, every 36 hours or so, inducing exasperation in their most loyal listeners. Also there are the supposed wishes of the alleged silent 94% vs. the more responsive 6%, a very questionable statistic which probably originated pre-Facebook. I have yet to meet one person who upon inquiry indicates that they favor this kind of approach.

I know we have been over most of this before, and I don't expect more rehashed explanations. I simply don't buy them, and I know that the other voices of reason on this board don't either. I believe they are flawed premises which are based on mostly false assumptions. But what KRTH is doing is not only good for L.A. right now, but it would also "play in Peoria." If a small subset comprised of local music testers fails to express sufficient appreciation for songs that are otherwise widely accepted as staples, that does not necessarily mean that the local listening community as a whole will also fail to do so.

 

[michael hagerty]

And, of course, the research companies are not "goofy". That's an insult to the really qualified people who run them and work with them.

I predicate my "goofy" assessment not on the professionals themselves but just to describe the frequently skewed playlists that are derived from the results that this kind of information produces. What might they recommend when hundreds of songs have ambiguous or borderline results? Or barely above their cutoff, or just a hair below their cutoff? Next is the "treadmill" straitjacket playlist recommendation, circulating most qualifying songs equally, every 36 hours or so, inducing exasperation in their most loyal listeners. Also there are the supposed wishes of the alleged silent 94% vs. the more responsive 6%, a very questionable statistic which probably originated pre-Facebook. I have yet to meet one person who upon inquiry indicates that they favor this kind of approach.

I know we have been over most of this before, and I don't expect more rehashed explanations. I simply don't buy them, and I know that the other voices of reason on this board don't either. I believe they are flawed premises which are based on mostly false assumptions. But what KRTH is doing is not only good for L.A. right now, but it would also "play in Peoria." If a small subset comprised of local music testers fails to express sufficient appreciation for songs that are otherwise widely accepted as staples, that does not necessarily mean that the local listening community as a whole will also fail to do so.

Even if there was any evidence to suggest that Facebook somehow turns passives into actives, the KJMK Facebook page tells a totally different story:

2,354 likes.

Not counting your posts suggesting songs you hope won't be overlooked, there have been TWO listener posts in the past 60 days complaining about repetition. One on January 5 from a high school student (who seems to be a fan but was ticked off that he heard Frampton's "Show Me The Way" 10 times in two days...if that really happened, he's got a right to be ticked) that three other people (yourself included) either liked or commented on, and one like of Carol Bagwell Roll's comment from Jan Williams....

....and the one you quoted from Shawn Moore yesterday that three people (including yourself) either liked or commented on. Shawn Moore liked your comment, so that's duplication. You and Shawn Moore are two of the four people who liked Carol's comment, so there are only two there. You and Carol Bagwell Roll are in both, so that's...

9 people.

One of them in high school, not exactly the target demo.

Out of 2,354 who like the page.

In 60 days.

Two months.

Meantime, the stations that do the "goofy" research that you don't buy are delivering generally consistent ratings. Meaning they're not screwing it up and not ticking off large segments of their audience.

 

[davideduardo]

And, of course, the research companies are not "goofy". That's an insult to the really qualified people who run them and work with them.

I predicate my "goofy" assessment not on the professionals themselves but just to describe the frequently skewed playlists that are derived from the results that this kind of information produces. What might they recommend when hundreds of songs have ambiguous or borderline results?

The research company does not "recommend" anything. It is the radio station and its program staff that makes the final decisions on how to implement a test.

Generally, the results are not in any way ambiguous.

A station will look at scores lined up with columns based on all respondents, heavy listeners, P2's, younger half, older half, male, female, as well as any clusters that factor analysis has produced. This way it is easy to see which songs have good positives across the board, and which have major "holes" or defects.

Or barely above their cutoff, or just a hair below their cutoff?

Stations know that scores are not absolutes... there is a margin of error.

But generally, even around the cutoff point, usually in the 70 or higher raw score range, it is easy to find the songs that are playable in that range because, even then, they have few pockets of strong negatives.

Next is the "treadmill" straitjacket playlist recommendation, circulating most qualifying songs equally, every 36 hours or so, inducing exasperation in their most loyal listeners.

Actually, the highest scoring songs will become powers, rotating the fastest. The second group will rotate more slowly, and a third and maybe fourth will rotate even slower.

Finally, the borderline songs will be used as fill for hours with less commercials than usual or in case of a "short run" song total in the hour.

I know we have been over most of this before, and I don't expect more rehashed explanations. I simply don't buy them, and I know that the other voices of reason on this board don't either.

How, in good conscience, can you call "voices of reason" a small group of people who are either oldies fanatics or chart fanatics, all of whom ignore the thousands of music tests and perceptual projects as well as the overwhelming volume of ratings data that proves that deep, extended playlists do not do well?

But what KRTH is doing is not only good for L.A. right now, but it would also "play in Peoria."

Here is considerable proof that you are not paying attention to facts. The fact here is that KRTH is down four or five rank positions in 25-54 since the middle of last year. As ratings fall, revenues fall. And as revenues fall, programming is adjusted or changed.

If a small subset comprised of local music testers fails to express sufficient appreciation for songs that are otherwise widely accepted as staples, that does not necessarily mean that the local listening community as a whole will also fail to do so.

Here is your biggest error.

The people at a music test are not a "subset" but a proportional and representative sample. The collective opinion of 100 music testers projects very faithfully into the entirety of the listenership of a station.

... just as the Arbitron sample is a small but mirror image of an entire market, accurate enough for advertisers to use the data to spend $15 billion a year on radio advertising.