KRTH 2013 Labor Day Countdown

[michael hagerty]

I very seldom listen to KRTH anymore. I get off work at 3:30 and sometimes when I get in my car I'll turn on KRTH just to see what they're playing. Many times I've heard Brown Eyed Girl, Mrs. Robinson or California Dreamin' at 3:30. I've been told that each song has a rotation that prevents it from airing at the same time on two different days in the same month. That may be true. If it is, and considering that I don't listen often, then it's just coincidence that I so often hear one of those three songs at 3:30. But it is no coincidence that I immediately switch to another station.

Michael mentioned KRTH's "variety" and "eras covered." So where are the instrumental hits and the doo-wop hits and the modern-rock hits and the new-wave hits and the MOR hits and the AC hits and the 1950s hits and the 1990s hits and the 2000s hits? "Variety"? Pfffttt!!!

Well, let's just see what you'd have heard if you listened from 3:30 to 3:50 every weekday so far in August....

8/1:

Al Green: You Ought To Be With Me
Beatles: Nowhere Man
Miracles: Love Machine
Jim Croce: You Don't Mess Around With Jim

8/2:

Bruce Springsteen: Dancing In The Dark'
Earth, Wind & Fire: Sing A Song
Beach Boys: Good Vibrations
Jackson 5: The Love You Save

8/5:

Steve Miller Band: Jet Airliner
Diana Ross & The Supremes: Baby Love
Santana: Oye Como Va
Billy Joel: You May Be Right


8/6:

Huey Lewis & The News: The Power Of Love
Elton John: Bennie and the Jets
Mary Wells: My Guy
Bob Seger: Night Moves


8/7:

Mr. Mister: Broken Wings
Doobie Brothers: Black Water
Marvin Gaye: How Sweet It Is (To Be Loved By You)
Elton John: Rocket Man


8/8:

Rufus: Ain't Nobody
Chicago: Feelin' Stronger Every Day
Diana Ross & The Supremes: Someday We'll Be Together

8/9:

Kool & The Gang: Fresh
Wild Cherry: Play That Funky Music
Four Tops: Reach Out, I'll Be There
Carly Simon: You're So Vain
Hall & Oates: You Make My Dreams

8/12:

Martha & The Vandellas: Nowhere To Run
Stealers' Wheel: Stuck In The Middle With You
Lionel Richie: All Night Long


8/13:

Eddie Money: Take Me Home Tonight
David Bowie: Changes
Aretha Franklin: Respect
Toto: Hold The Line
Kool & The Gang: Celebration


8/14:

Police: Every Little Thing She Does Is Magic
Doors: Touch Me
Billy Joel: Piano Man


8/15:

Diana Ross & The Supremes: I Hear A Symphony
John Mellencamp: Small Town
Bill Withers: Lean On Me
Sprial Starecase: More Today Than Yesterday


8/16:

Michael Jackson: Beat It
Rod Stewart: Tonight's The Night
Mamas & Papas: Monday, Monday
Manfred Mann's Earth Band: Blinded By The Light


8/19:

War: Summer
Pat Benatar: We Belong
Chicago: If You Leave Me Now
Smokey Robinson & The Miracles: I Second That Emotion


8/20:

Chic: Le Freak
Journey: Open Arms
Stevie Wonder: Isn't She Lovely
Monkees: I'm A Believer


Yeah, Steve....that repetition is BRUTAL.

 

[oldies76]

Every weekend KRTH plays the same songs that they play every day of the week, just in a slightly different order. Wouldn't it be fun to have a '60s Instrumental Weekend and have every other song be a...well...a '60s instrumental? Rick Thomas? Do you dare?

Returning to REAL specialty weekends is all I've been asking since the 80's! That what weekends should be for anyways, to show off what the station is really all about. I can understand the M-F programming standards, but come on, weekends......just got to loosen it up a bit.

The specialty should begin at noon on Friday and end late Sunday or Monday (if it's a holiday). They've done it before, they can do it again for old time's sake.

60's instrumentals would be nice, but you may have to include the 50's, 70's and 80's to avoid repetition. Heck, I'd even include "Lily Was Here".

 

[oldies76]

Yeah, Steve....that repetition is BRUTAL.

Mr. Hagerty, I believe Steve is referencing the entire KRTH library as a whole to be repetitious. And the casual listener will not listen from 3:30 to 3:50pm (an example) everyday, like clockwork. Times will vary everyday, depending on your commute and other life factors. I never listen at the same times everyday. If you vary your listening times throughout the week, you're more likely to hear songs repeated daily. And the other point is that eventually the casual listener will have exhausted most times of the week (over a long period of time) and will have gotten really familiar with KRTH's library and that's when the complaints on repetition and how limited it's library really is and the wish for better variety. Everybody I've spoken too has said the same thing: Wishing that their own favorites or other songs by the familiar artist were played. That's what it comes to in the long run.

 

[oldies76]

Well, let's just see what you'd have heard if you listened from 3:30 to 3:50 every weekday so far in August....

And if you noticed, the station is still skewing in favor of the 60's and/ or early 70's as one or two cuts in every 20 minute stretch. Great news I suppose, for the 55+ listeners!
That's really the music (repetitious or not) that K-Earth is really known for, like a legacy.

 

[michael hagerty]

Yeah, Steve....that repetition is BRUTAL.

Mr. Hagerty, I believe Steve is referencing the entire KRTH library as a whole to be repetitious. And the casual listener will not listen from 3:30 to 3:50pm (an example) everyday, like clockwork. Times will vary everyday, depending on your commute and other life factors. I never listen at the same times everyday. If you vary your listening times throughout the week, you're more likely to hear songs repeated daily. And the other point is that eventually the casual listener will have exhausted most times of the week (over a long period of time) and will have gotten really familiar with KRTH's library and that's when the complaints on repetition and how limited it's library really is and the wish for better variety. Everybody I've spoken too has said the same thing: Wishing that their own favorites or other songs by the familiar artist were played. That's what it comes to in the long run.

First of all, people are creatures of habit.

Second, that was 55 songs in three weeks (with no repeat), listening a bit longer than average (I believe David told us the typical tune-in is 12 minutes). It'd take a while to hear the other 795, wouldn't it?

And when the repeats come, the typical listener will only know that it's been a while since they heard it...because...it has.

 

[oldies76]

First of all, people are creatures of habit.

Second, that was 55 songs in three weeks (with no repeat), listening a bit longer than average (I believe David told us the typical tune-in is 12 minutes). It'd take a while to hear the other 795, wouldn't it?

And when the repeats come, the typical listener will only know that it's been a while since they heard it...because...it has.

First, the casual listener does not listen like clockwork. They'll listen to the radio whenever they see fit, and those times will vary. Besides the typical commute for many freeway commuters in L.A. (and we're talking hundred of thousands of drivers daily on EACH freeway or major boulevard) is more than 12-20 minutes. If your commute takes 1-2 hours each way, then that exposes the listener to many more songs, risking the repetition factor on a weekly basis.

Secondly, over time the average listener will know the KRTH library and will eventually realize what's been played too much or what hasn't been played (their wish list). Within the 800 songs a station rotates, many different songs will repeat before all 800 are eventually exhausted. Some will be played more frequently than others, some only once a week or two.

The KRTH countdown begins in 10 days......

 

[michael hagerty]

First of all, people are creatures of habit.

Second, that was 55 songs in three weeks (with no repeat), listening a bit longer than average (I believe David told us the typical tune-in is 12 minutes). It'd take a while to hear the other 795, wouldn't it?

And when the repeats come, the typical listener will only know that it's been a while since they heard it...because...it has.

First, the casual listener does not listen like clockwork. They'll listen to the radio whenever they see fit, and those times will vary. Besides the typical commute for many freeway commuters in L.A. (and we're talking hundred of thousands of drivers daily on EACH freeway or major boulevard) is more than 12-20 minutes. If your commute takes 1-2 hours each way, then that exposes the listener to many more songs, risking the repetition factor on a weekly basis.
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Secondly, over time the average listener will know the KRTH library and will eventually realize what's been played too much or what hasn't been played (their wish list). Within the 800 songs a station rotates, many different songs will repeat before all 800 are eventually exhausted. Some will be played more frequently than others, some only once a week or two.

The KRTH countdown begins in 10 days......

But radio runs on the typical listener. KRTH is one of between 6 and 9 choices, and even with an hour or longer commute, they're spending 12 minutes at a shot with each. Or 8 minutes less than I gave Steve. 60 minutes at the wheel is likely to be spent with 5 stations....a little KRTH, a bit of KOST, a maybe some KKGO, a taste of NPR and maybe a little KIIS.

Even if they do four 12-minute tune-ins a day, that's 12 songs a day...weekday listening that's 240 songs in a month, which means a shade under four months before you'd have heard everything on the playlist and that's without repeats, which would only stretch it out further.

If typical listeners behaved differently, they might get tired. If your aunt had different private parts, she'd be your uncle. But they don't and she isn't.

No matter which way you turn it, it comes down to well-documented behavior and usage of the medium. Which is why it works.

 

[davideduardo]

Besides the typical commute for many freeway commuters in L.A. (and we're talking hundred of thousands of drivers daily on EACH freeway or major boulevard) is more than 12-20 minutes.

Per the ACS from the Census Bureau, the 2012 commute times in LA averaged 28.3 minutes, down from 28.8 minutes in 2000.

... and commute times are quite regular, just as the time people arrive and leave work are regular.

... and only 1/3 of radio listening is in the car anyway, so commute time is not the most significant issue in calculating rotations of songs.

If your commute takes 1-2 hours each way, then that exposes the listener to many more songs, risking the repetition factor on a weekly basis.

With real commute times being much, much less, then the average person hears about 5 songs each way. 10 a day, or 50 a week. Or about two months between average repetitions.

Within the 800 songs a station rotates, many different songs will repeat before all 800 are eventually exhausted. Some will be played more frequently than others, some only once a week or two.

So the songs most people love to hear will be heard while commuting perhaps aver 3 to 4 weeks.

 

[michael hagerty]

With real commute times being much, much less, then the average person hears about 5 songs each way. 10 a day, or 50 a week. Or about two months between average repetitions.

Within the 800 songs a station rotates, many different songs will repeat before all 800 are eventually exhausted. Some will be played more frequently than others, some only once a week or two.

So the songs most people love to hear will be heard while commuting perhaps aver 3 to 4 weeks.

And that's with them spending the entire commute with the same station every day...which the typical listener doesn't.

 

[oldies76]

And that's with them spending the entire commute with the same station every day...which the typical listener doesn't.

And the goal of radio stations is to keep the listener, not losing them to other stations? Ratings?

So people change stations, just to change stations during a commute or are they really tired of certain songs they hear every so often, causing them to change stations?

Traffic reports / news I can understand, but music should not be an issue....that corner is getting a tad closer guys.

Catch ya tomorrow, it's getting late here near the Rockies.

 

[michael hagerty]

Michael mentioned KRTH's "variety" and "eras covered." So where are the instrumental hits and the doo-wop hits and the modern-rock hits and the new-wave hits and the MOR hits and the AC hits and the 1950s hits and the 1990s hits and the 2000s hits? "Variety"? Pfffttt!!!

It's called knowing your audience. Instrumental hits have been out of vogue for a while now, though I'll bet KRTH still spins "Classical Gas"...because it still tests well even with a demo that doesn't remember it from when it was new.

The last person who thought their might be money in doo-wop hits was Humble Harve, who bought time on KIEV (now KRLA) and then tried to sell ads to make the money back. Ask him how that went.

Modern rock and new wave hits are making their way into the KRTH mix.

MOR hits and AC hits were only hits when new if they were also Top 40 hits. Records that only charted MOR or AC were turntable hits. You know...stiffs. And given that MOR morohed into AC 40 years ago, you're talking about music for 80 year olds when what you want is 40 year olds. Jhani Kaye's original target KOST listener is 70 now.

1950's hits? Bob Seger sang the line "now sweet 16's turned 31" in 1976. Which makes sweet 16 68 now. And Seger's girl was sweet 16 in 1961, so we're looking at 70-somethings.

And 90s hits and 2000s hits? We'll get there. But you don't do stuff capriciously with a station like KRTH, because, for the most part, other than a demographic issue they need to address...it works.

 

[michael hagerty]

And that's with them spending the entire commute with the same station every day...which the typical listener doesn't.

And the goal of radio stations is to keep the listener, not losing them to other stations? Ratings?

So people change stations, just to change stations during a commute or are they really tired of certain songs they hear every so often, causing them to change stations?

Traffic reports / news I can understand, but music should not be an issue....that corner is getting a tad closer guys.

Catch ya tomorrow, it's getting late here near the Rockies.

The goal of radio stations is to keep a relatively constant level of listeners within the sales demo in any given 15-minute period, knowing that the average listener behaves a certain way.

Yes, they change stations, not "just to change stations" and not because of fatigue, but because they have other stations they enjoy listening to as well. Is that really that difficult to understand?

Mom gets her Michael Jackson-Santana-Journey fix from KRTH, checks in to see who Ryan Seacrest has on his KIIS-FM show today, gets in the mood for some Katy Perry-Daft Punk-Robin Thicke on My104.3, checks the news on KCRW and grabs a little Country on KKGO. And she still hasn't gotten to her Old School on Hot92.3, some more modern Classic Hits with attitude on Jack, mellower soul-jazz on The Wave, she can kick back a bit with KOST and Kevin & Bean on KROQ still crack her up after all these years.

Dad? He listens to KRTH a few minutes a day, too. And Jack, KLOS, The Sound, Alt 98.7, KROQ and he might even venture over to AM for ESPN 710 or Bill Handel on KFI.

Lengthy listening is not typical listener behavior in this day and age. It's a decided minority. So you tailor your station so that when they tune in they hear the strongest possible songs and you structure your rotations so that the greatest number of people hear them often enough to satisfy them without apparent repetition.

Go back and look at that list of what KRTH's played from 3:30-3:50 every day this month. Whether they're to your taste or not, there's not a clunker in the bunch. And whatever 20 minutes I had chosen, that wouldn't change. It's that consistency that gives KRTH its power..

 

[davideduardo]

And the goal of radio stations is to keep the listener, not losing them to other stations? Ratings?

The goal of a commercial station is to attract as many listeners as possible for as long a cumulative time, daily and weekly, as possible

With data available today, we know that people station hop.

Some do so according to mood, using a single station for generally short intervals. They change stations, perhaps using one for much of a day, and then use another on a different day. Or they have one station they tune to first in the car, and another they prefer at home or at work.

Others are frequent station hoppers, changing whenever they hear commercials, a song they don't like or even if some element like traffic, news, sports or an un-favorite DJ comes on. They may bounce around every few minutes, although that behaviour is more typical of teens and young adult men.

So people change stations, just to change stations during a commute or are they really tired of certain songs they hear every so often, causing them to change stations?

Fortunately, the PPM tells us when each panelist changes station. That information can be linked to the exact program element on the air... and the biggest single reason for change other than turning off the radio (such as when arriving home or to work) is: a bad, low testing, widely disliked song. The second reason is commercials, but to a much lesser degree.

In the diary days, the average person listened (depending on the market) around 2 1/2 hours a day. The precision of the PPM shows that people actually were listening closer to 1:45 to 2 hours a day... the difference being in the way the diary measured rounded as opposed to exact times.

When listeners hear "weak" songs not only do they listen less to a station, they come back less often.

 

[Thomps2525]

Okay, so KRTH isn't playing the same songs at the same time of day every day. It just seems like it. Twenty years ago I defined KRTH's format as "Songs we all got sick of when we were in high school." Today I can use the same slogan. When KSUR had a 1950s-60s oldies format (2004-05), I heard hundreds of songs that KRTH was not playing, and John Regan hosted a Sunday afternoon doo-wop show that featured more songs that KRTH was not playing. I made quite a few airchecks and I'm glad I did. Several days ago KRTH played Dickey Lee's Laurie and that was the first "Oh wow" song that I've heard on KRTH in many many years. With that one exception, I don't hear anything on KRTH that I haven't already heard several thousand times. I know I'm not part of KRTH's "core audience." KRTH's core audience inexplicably likes hearing songs that they've already heard several thousand times. When I listened to KSUR, I'd think things such as "Oh wow, Little Boy Sad by Johnny Burnette---I haven't heard that for 40 years!" When I listen to KRTH, I think such things as "Good God, they're playing Brown Eyed Girl again? I am so sick of that song!" And then: <Click>

 

[michael hagerty]

Okay, so KRTH isn't playing the same songs at the same time of day every day. It just seems like it. Twenty years ago I defined KRTH's format as "Songs we all got sick of when we were in high school." Today I can use the same slogan.

Not sure how, given that we've proved they don't do what you thought they did and if that were true, you would have to have spent more than 20 years in high school, but carry on.

When KSUR had a 1950s-60s oldies format (2004-05), I heard hundreds of songs that KRTH was not playing, and John Regan hosted a Sunday afternoon doo-wop show that featured more songs that KRTH was not playing. I made quite a few airchecks and I'm glad I did. Several days ago KRTH played Dickey Lee's Laurie and that was the first "Oh wow" song that I've heard on KRTH in many many years. With that one exception, I don't hear anything on KRTH that I haven't already heard several thousand times. I know I'm not part of KRTH's "core audience." KRTH's core audience inexplicably likes hearing songs that they've already heard several thousand times. When I listened to KSUR, I'd think things such as "Oh wow, Little Boy Sad by Johnny Burnette---I haven't heard that for 40 years!" When I listen to KRTH, I think such things as "Good God, they're playing Brown Eyed Girl again? I am so sick of that song!" And then: <Click>

The fact that KSUR had that format for a year might tell you something about its viability.

The fact that you continue to hammer on "Brown Eyed Girl" (which you'll notice wasn't one of the songs that you would have heard if you'd listened for 20 minutes at 3:30 every weekday afternoon so far this month...) tells me something.

By the way, this afternoon, you missed:

Yes: Owner Of A Lonely Heart
Frankie Valli: Grease
J.J. Jackson: But It's Alright
Paul McCartney: Maybe I'm Amazed.

59 records. Three weeks on the nose. No repeats. No "Brown Eyed Girl".

 

[oldies76]

In the diary days, the average person listened (depending on the market) around 2 1/2 hours a day.

That sounds about right....I could not even think of turning K-Earth off, when the number one weekend was held over Labor Day, so long ago. I believe I went 30 hours+ consecutively one year (1987?) hearing the entire special without leaving my house!! Yes, it was tiring, but it was well-worth it at the time.

Today, I could not listen to KRTH for more than one hour straight, even if I tried to. There's nothing attractive for long-term listening anymore.

 

[oldies76]

The fact that you continue to hammer on "Brown Eyed Girl" (which you'll notice wasn't one of the songs that you would have heard if you'd listened for 20 minutes at 3:30 every weekday afternoon so far this month...) tells me something.

By the way, this afternoon, you missed:

Yes: Owner Of A Lonely Heart
Frankie Valli: Grease
J.J. Jackson: But It's Alright
Paul McCartney: Maybe I'm Amazed.

59 records. Three weeks on the nose. No repeats. No "Brown Eyed Girl".

"Brown Eyed Girl" will be played eventually in that slot. But only 59 records? That leaves about 740. Bet you that some of those first 59 will repeat before the first 300 are aired in that slot.

 

[michael hagerty]

The fact that you continue to hammer on "Brown Eyed Girl" (which you'll notice wasn't one of the songs that you would have heard if you'd listened for 20 minutes at 3:30 every weekday afternoon so far this month...) tells me something.

By the way, this afternoon, you missed:

Yes: Owner Of A Lonely Heart
Frankie Valli: Grease
J.J. Jackson: But It's Alright
Paul McCartney: Maybe I'm Amazed.

59 records. Three weeks on the nose. No repeats. No "Brown Eyed Girl".

"Brown Eyed Girl" will be played eventually in that slot. But only 59 records? That leaves about 740. Bet you that some of those first 59 will repeat before the first 300 are aired in that slot.

Eventually, yes. And it should be. It still tests well enough to be on the KRTH playlist.

Of course some of them will repeat. Those are in power rotation. You know that.

You also know that it will be a long time before a typical listener will hear all of them, if they ever do. And that the perception will be that it's been ages, or at least acceptably long, since the last play.

 

[davideduardo]

In the diary days, the average person listened (depending on the market) around 2 1/2 hours a day.

That sounds about right....I could not even think of turning K-Earth off, when the number one weekend was held over Labor Day, so long ago. I believe I went 30 hours+ consecutively one year (1987?) hearing the entire special without leaving my house!! Yes, it was tiring, but it was well-worth it at the time.

Please re-read. The average person reported in their diary that they listened to all radio something like 2.5 hours a day. That is still the number in the (smaller) diary markets today, in fact.

The roughly 18 or so hours a week were spent listening to an average of three radio stations, and a typical station got about an hour a day of listening.

The PPM showed three things:

• People rounded listening times up so it seemed they listened more than really true. This is because people wrote down listening "from 9 to 10 AM" instead of "from 9:07 AM to 9:27 AM and then from 9:43 AM to 9:52 AM" which is what they really did
• People did not register interruptions in listening, such as coffee breaks or taking the kids to the bus stop
• People did not tend to write down the secondary stations they used, since they did not always remember that listening

So, using any of the markets that transitioned to the PPM, the last diary book might have shown listening of 19 hours a week by the average person, the first PPM book showed it to be 40% less. Not because of song burn out, not because of commercials, but because electronic measurement is more precise than memory dumps done a few times a week.

 

[Thomps2525]

Mister oldies76, I'm not a typical listener. In fact I almost never listen to KRTH anymore. I can't get excited about hearing songs I've already heard thousands of times. Most of the songs on KRTH are songs I got sick of hearing when they were originally on the charts and being played several times a day.

Michael, I "hammer" on Brown Eyed Girl because I'm more sick of that song than any other song in the history of recorded music. If you ever go to the '60s discussions a certain satellite radio fan site, you'll see that there are many others who hate that song as much as I do.

As for KSUR's short-lived 1950s-60s oldies format, Saul Levine seldom sticks with any format on 1260 for very long; He's tried AC, MOR, talk, news, jazz, country, show tunes, standards, classical and all-Beatles as well as the "Retro" and "Shuffle" formats. I wish he had stayed with the '50s-60s oldies format---today he'd have no competition at all. By the way, KSUR gave very little airplay to the songs that were being played to death on KRTH. I could listen all day and not hear Happy Together or Pretty Woman or Brown Eyed Girl even once.