KRTH 2013 Labor Day Countdown

[ChannelFlipper]

I agree with Super. This has been the most tedious thread since... well, a long time.

Don't get me wrong, I am not pointing any fingers at any individual poster or group of posters, you all have your valid points (well, for the most part anyway). This has been one long discussion between programmers and insiders who want to play whatever drives every last rating point, regardless of how much such programming may cheapen, degrade, and ultimately destroy the overall concept of radio, which I assume we all love and want to see succeed. On the other hand there are those who are holding onto what radio used to be and just can't get that the radio they want has gone the way of the dodo bird for a reason. The truth of course, is somewhere in the middle, but none of us is likely to ever find it. The two sides are going to keep on talking past each other.

I see both sides. The kid in me who grew up with radio, loves not just what it was, but what it could be, and knows what good radio sounds like, hates what the radio business has become and what it has done to the medium I once loved. But my head knows you cannot tell people what to like, and if they are going to like Lil' Wayne, Pink, Cyrus and Gaga (or others who are even worse), I can't make them like what I like instead, so you might as well play what they want to hear - who are we to fight it? I am thankful that my ecclectic, weird, sometimes sophisticated, but sometimes even campy tastes can be satisfied via other mediums and I am not forced to listen to garbage like Kanye just because he is popular. I am not old, but I will never again be in the KIIS/KAMP target demo and will not be listening to that kind of product. But even though I can program my own music, it is not a substitute for good radio. There is no substitute for good radio.

 

[Thomps2525]

If we wanted to complain about other music radio stations---and, out of deference to Mister ChannelFlipper, I don't think we should do that---they all (with the exception of classical) play the same songs over and over and over within their particular format. KRTH plays the same oldies over and over and over. At KIIS and KAMP, it's Roar and Blurred Lines over and over and over. At KLOS and KSWD, it's Free Bird and Hotel California over and over and over. At KHHT, it's Good Times and Ring My Bell over and over and over. KTWV plays Take Five and Midnight Train To Georgia over and over and over. At KKGO, are they ever going to quit playing Chattahoochee and Friends In Low Places?

What we miss is the large playlists of the 1950s and '60s and even the '70s. We miss the daily joy and excitement of hearing a lot of songs we've never heard before. We are dismayed when David and Michael post ratings and surveys that show that the majority of the radio audience in 2013 wants to hear the same songs over and over and over. Mister ChannelFlipper says there is no substitute for good radio. Can any of today's music stations be considered "good" by those of us who remember how much fun radio used to be?

 

[michael hagerty]

What we miss is the large playlists of the 1950s and '60s and even the '70s. We miss the daily joy and excitement of hearing a lot of songs we've never heard before. We are dismayed when David and Michael post ratings and surveys that show that the majority of the radio audience in 2013 wants to hear the same songs over and over and over. Mister ChannelFlipper says there is no substitute for good radio. Can any of today's music stations be considered "good" by those of us who remember how much fun radio used to be?

Selective memory that didn't apply to the mass audience even then, Steve.

KFWB's big list lost to KRLA's shorter one 50 years ago. KHJ was tighter than KRLA and beat them.

On the FM side, KMET's wide-open library got crushed by KLOS, which really was every bit as tight as KHJ, just with album cuts. KMET only came back by being tighter than KLOS. And both got crushed by KROQ, which was tighter than tight.

And that was 30 years ago.

The mass audience has spoken on this time and again. It would be so much easier for broadcasters to stretch out, play whatever sounds good. But unless you can get them all to do it, they'll lose to the tighter, more focused station everytime.

You can blame broadcasters, but it's actually how people use the radio and how they've used it for decades.

 

[Thomps2525]

KRLA's weekly Tune-Dex chart was originally 50 songs. For many weeks in 1960-61, their surveys included little digs regarding all the songs that were still not on KFWB's Fabulous Forty survey. Both stations were playing between 60 and 70 songs back then.

And we can't blame broadcasters---they're merely "giving the public what they [the public] want." It's that darned public that's ruining radio!

 

[oldies76]

What we miss is the large playlists of the 1950s and '60s and even the '70s. We miss the daily joy and excitement of hearing a lot of songs we've never heard before. We are dismayed when David and Michael post ratings and surveys that show that the majority of the radio audience in 2013 wants to hear the same songs over and over and over.

We had very large playlists on K-Earth in the 80's, until Mr. Phillips destroyed that philosophy later in the decade. It has never been the same since. Have always been in favor of larger playlists with far less repetition. But I have to tell you one thing, the fact that if you hear a station for only 15 minutes a day, you are unlikely to hear these repetitions as often as you think. That is a valid point that Mr. Hagerty and David recently brought up. Now if you do hear KRTH for 3 hours a day straight, every day, then you're more than likely to hear the same songs more frequently. It makes sense Radio Rewind, now that I have thought about it.

 

[Thomps2525]

And I agree. If you listen for three hours a day to any station in almost any music format, you'll get sick of the repetition. Michael listened to KRTH much less often than I did so he didn't get sick of the songs that I got sick of.

I remember in the early 1970s when KRTH played Torquay by the Fireballs, Lucky Ladybug by Billy & Lillie, Just To Be With You by the Passions, So Tough by the Casuals, Got A Match? by the Daddy-O's, Mexican Hat Rock by the Applejacks, and hundreds of other low-charting songs. Hey, Rick Thomas---if KRTH can still play Tequila, then why can't KRTH re-add Mexican Hat Rock? Think about it.

 

[michael hagerty]

KRLA's weekly Tune-Dex chart was originally 50 songs. For many weeks in 1960-61, their surveys included little digs regarding all the songs that were still not on KFWB's Fabulous Forty survey. Both stations were playing between 60 and 70 songs back then.
/QUOTE]

And KRLA lost to KFWB until 1963...when KRLA went to 40 records.

And two years later, along comes KHJ with 30 and....boom! In six months, from a station that had "loser" written all over it for a decade.

After Ron Jacobs left, Ted Atkins took a chainsaw to KHJ's oldies library (part of it was to give KHJ-FM some exclusivity on older songs).

Currents, recurrents and Goldens, KHJ was under 600 songs all told from 1971 on.

Gerry Petersen, who programmed KHJ in 1974, had a formula: 30 currents, 50 recurrents, 100 Goldens. That's 180 songs total.

In 1974.

He took the station from a 5.4 to a 6.3, partially reversing a six-year slide.

 

[michael hagerty]

We had very large playlists on K-Earth in the 80's, until Mr. Phillips destroyed that philosophy later in the decade. It has never been the same since. Have always been in favor of larger playlists with far less repetition. But I have to tell you one thing, the fact that if you hear a station for only 15 minutes a day, you are unlikely to hear these repetitions as often as you think. That is a valid point that Mr. Hagerty and David recently brought up. Now if you do hear KRTH for 3 hours a day straight, every day, then you're more than likely to hear the same songs more frequently. It makes sense Radio Rewind, now that I have thought about it.

Yep. And while Mike Phillips destroyed a philosophy, he saved a radio station and forced a competitor (KCBS-FM) to change format in a year.

 

[Thomps2525]

KODJ/KCBS-FM had Don Steele, Charlie Tuna, Rich Fields, Tonya Campos, Dean Goss, Humble Harve, Paul Freeman, Machine Gun Kelly and a larger playlist than that of KRTH---Maybe I Know, California Nights and Let's Lock The Door are three songs I remember that were played only on KODJ. The station also advertised on billboards and distributed promotional folders to record stores. I really expected that the station that had jingles declaring "Your new number one, KODJ" would eventually beat KRTH in the ratings. It didn't. It became ARROW 93, "All Rock & Roll Oldies by White people." (I added that last part myself because the station didn't use the "W" in their slogan. It was an accurate description.)

 

[michael hagerty]

KODJ/KCBS-FM had Don Steele, Charlie Tuna, Rich Fields, Tonya Campos, Dean Goss, Humble Harve, Paul Freeman, Machine Gun Kelly and a larger playlist than that of KRTH---Maybe I Know, California Nights and Let's Lock The Door are three songs I remember that were played only on KODJ. The station also advertised on billboards and distributed promotional folders to record stores. I really expected that the station that had jingles declaring "Your new number one, KODJ" would eventually beat KRTH in the ratings. It didn't. It became ARROW 93, "All Rock & Roll Oldies by White people." (I added that last part myself because the station didn't use the "W" in their slogan. It was an accurate description.)

Yeah, KODJ/CBS-FM never did terribly well. 1.9-1.9-1.7-2.0 from 1989 to 1992. But if you look at KRTH pre-Mike Phillips, it's not pretty either. The first year back as oldies (1986) got them a 3.8 (up from a 2.9 in their last year of AC), but the next year was flat at a 3.8 and then it went 3.5-2.9-1.9. Phillips came in, tightened everything and got a 3.8 before bringing in Drake, Morgan and Steele, at which point it went to a 4.0.

Again, Archie Bell and The Drells tell us everything we need to know about programming philosophy.

 

[Thomps2525]

Programmers can't stop dancing? Or maybe you mean the other Archie Bell song.

Radio columnist Richard Wagoner is still waiting for someone from KRTH to talk to him about how the annual Top 300/500 votes are tabulated. I have a feeling that nobody will say anything. A few years ago KRTH played the exact same countdown two years in a row. And several years ago, KRTH ran a promo that began with Charlie Van Dyke saying, "Here is song #201 on the Top 300." A song snippet was played and then Charlie said, "Here is song #101." Another song snippet played and then Charlie said, "Here is song number one." After a very brief silence, Charlie said, "Ah-ah-ah, you don't think we'll reveal that one, do you? Be listening at 3 pm Friday when we begin counting down the Top 300." The promo aired early in the week. Apparently the list had been completed even though listeners still had several more days in which to vote. I agree with Richard: Maybe a few votes are tabulated but, for the most part, the countdowns are likely the result of guesswork.

 

[michael hagerty]

Programmers can't stop dancing? Or maybe you mean the other Archie Bell song.

Radio columnist Richard Wagoner is still waiting for someone from KRTH to talk to him about how the annual Top 300/500 votes are tabulated. I have a feeling that nobody will say anything. A few years ago KRTH played the exact same countdown two years in a row. And several years ago, KRTH ran a promo that began with Charlie Van Dyke saying, "Here is song #201 on the Top 300." A song snippet was played and then Charlie said, "Here is song #101." Another song snippet played and then Charlie said, "Here is song number one." After a very brief silence, Charlie said, "Ah-ah-ah, you don't think we'll reveal that one, do you? Be listening at 3 pm Friday when we begin counting down the Top 300." The promo aired early in the week. Apparently the list had been completed even though listeners still had several more days in which to vote. I agree with Richard: Maybe a few votes are tabulated but, for the most part, the countdowns are likely the result of guesswork.

Again, the 2011 and 2012 KRTH countdowns didn't take votes nor suggest that they were taking them.

CBS-FM in New York's countdown this year made it clear they only took votes for the Top 30...and those were votes on songs that CBS-FM put in front of the audience online. Again, they were open about it.

So, I have to come back to what KRTH said it was doing, the fact that CBS' stations have not, to my knowledge, lied at any time about how countdowns were put together and that, given the mechanics of the survey KRTH did, it would be way more trouble to make up a list or part of one than it would to simply let the software spit out the rankings. And given some of the surprises on that list, both in terms of songs and rankings, I'm going with innocent until proven guilty. KRTH says they took the votes, and I've seen nothing other than skepticism without basis that says otherwise.

 

[Thomps2525]

Thank you for your deposition, Perry Mason.

Maybe instead of advertising "the greatest hits on earth," KRTH should be honest and say that they play only some of the greatest hits on earth. Of course their marketing department would never go for that.

 

[michael hagerty]

Thank you for your deposition, Perry Mason.

Maybe instead of advertising "the greatest hits on earth," KRTH should be honest and say that they play only some of the greatest hits on earth. Of course their marketing department would never go for that.

Ah, but Mr. Burger (the D.A. who always went up against Perry Mason, Hamilton Burger......oh, God. I just got the joke. 53 years since I first watched that show...and I just got the joke)....

The ones they don't play don't test well and thus aren't hits anymore.

 

[semoochie]

Are you going for "ham melt on burger"? I never thought of it before. It could just be a coincidence.

 

[michael hagerty]

Are you going for "ham melt on burger"? I never thought of it before. It could just be a coincidence.

Actually, I was just going for "Ham Burger".

Which is what Perry usually turned him into every week.

 

[davideduardo]

Maybe a few votes are tabulated but, for the most part, the countdowns are likely the result of guesswork.

With online software, votes can be tabulated on an ongoing basis as they come in. Software can even take into account misspellings and different ways of naming a song or artist via lookup tables.

The truth is that all they need to do is tabulate a thousand or so random votes to get the entire list. Most things like that will begin to replicate after 400 to 500 votes, even down to the bottom-rung songs.

What you will always get is consensus on a few hundred songs, and then lessening votes for the rest. By the time you get to song 400 and below, you will just have a big mass of songs with a small fraction of one percent of the votes. So really, song 380 and song 490 are at about the same score.

 

[Thomps2525]

I made a mistake and neither David nor Michael caught it. I'm shocked at the two of them. Shocked! On September 4, I said that both the KRTH countdown and the WCBS-FM countdown included only two pre-1964 songs. Actually, KRTH had three: Louie Louie, Do You Love Me and Stand By Me. And yes, the Kingsmen were indeed singing the lyrics exactly as Richard Berry wrote them. I have Berry's original recording. Instead of wasting so much time investigating the supposed "dirty lyrics," the FBI should have just compared the Kingsmen's Louie Louie to the original. In an Esquire magazine interview, Berry even said they sang the song exactly as written! Unfortunately, when one person tells another what he thinks the "dirty words" are, that's what the other person will "hear."

http://www.songlyrics.com/the-kingsmen/louie-louie-lyrics/

 

[mighty met]

Hello.

Jumping into this discussion.

I have heard over the years that most listener countdowns are fake. KRTH's most certainly is.

One that did not seem to be, back in the day, was CBS-FMs. Too many oddball songs in there. One year a song called "Tracy" was #18. All kinds of wacky choices.

CBS-FM also used to do authentic surveys based on charts. Great listening. The #1 song would be the one that spent the most weeks on the chart / sold the most. AT THE TIME. They did this both for weekly surveys (here's a countdown from this month in 1972) and for year-end countdowns. Which is why "A Summer Place" would be #1 for 60s and "You Light Up My Life" would be #1 for 1970s. (Or at least up there.) For the listener surveys, it would of course be Earth Angel or In the Still of the Night. That was the tradition.

CBS also had, quite recently, a deep A to Z week-long event with maybe 2000 songs, 50s to early 80s. Everything from Blueberry Hill to Rapper's Delight. KRTH did their own shorter version with about 1500 songs - did it twice. This was under Khaye's reign.

Throw us a few bones like this, and you can play Brown Eyed Girl and Don't Stop Believing weekdays.

For those bored to tears, may I suggest 60s on 6 on XM. Fantastic countdown done every week, based on charts. Loaded with historical info, facts about the songs and artists... They play the good, the bad, and the ugly. You can listen to it On Demand on their website. Their regular format is more controlled, but still infinitely more interesting than terrestrial radio. Loads of stations to sample too in all kinds of genres.

And for great radio locally, turn to:

KCSN. Especially mornings with Nic Harcourt, and Saturday night with Mr. Shovel (used to be on Indie103 with Jonsey.)
KLOS Sunday nights - Bob Coburn's show
KPCC Not music, but great local programming like Offramp and Larry Mantle's show.

Great radio is around, but you have to dig....

 

[oldies76]

Jumping into this discussion.

I have heard over the years that most listener countdowns are fake. KRTH's most certainly is.

One that did not seem to be, back in the day, was CBS-FMs. Too many oddball songs in there. One year a song called "Tracy" was #18. All kinds of wacky choices.

CBS-FM also used to do authentic surveys based on charts. Great listening. The #1 song would be the one that spent the most weeks on the chart / sold the most. AT THE TIME. They did this both for weekly surveys (here's a countdown from this month in 1972) and for year-end countdowns. Which is why "A Summer Place" would be #1 for 60s and "You Light Up My Life" would be #1 for 1970s. (Or at least up there.) For the listener surveys, it would of course be Earth Angel or In the Still of the Night. That was the tradition.

CBS also had, quite recently, a deep A to Z week-long event with maybe 2000 songs, 50s to early 80s. Everything from Blueberry Hill to Rapper's Delight. KRTH did their own shorter version with about 1500 songs - did it twice. This was under Khaye's reign.

Great radio is around, but you have to dig....

Yes they did...I have the printouts of the 2008 A to Z from CBS-FM and it's huge and very thorough.

Been also a tad skeptical about KRTH's top 500 countdowns. Yeah, there's probably some listener input in there (especially top 20), but the rest of it is questionable. How conveniently that there were not two 60's songs back to back anywhere and during a good portion of the countdown, there was never more than 1 or 2 per hour, just like their rotation today, post countdown. It's leaning as a introduction to their new PD Rick Thomas on reducing the 60's (which they are doing now) and filling that space in with more of the same 70's and spotty 80's music.

Great radio is around yes, but it's mainly in small markets, on AM and on the internet.

Want to do a good countdown from your own station, utilize your own radio station surveys and sort that music out and rank them according to popularity. It was your own listener base that bought the records, requested the songs and ultimately based on public popularity, ranked them as airplay. But that's wishful thinking in 2013, but heck WOGL sure had the right idea this year!