KRTH IS NUMBER ONE, BECAUSE THEY PLAY THE BEST MUSIC !!

[oldies76]

For some reason there is this idea that anyone who was alive when the Beatles had current records... or for the next decade or so... is going to like old Top 40 songs. An awful lot of people never liked those songs, and lots more are tired of them or have moved on since then.

Wrong...

Anyone who was alive in the mid-late 60's (or any era), as mainly teens and young adults will remember and like some, if not most of the "other" top 40 songs, besides the Beatles that were played frequently back then and do enjoy them now when they hear them today on stations like KRTH or WCBS or some golden oldies AM station.

It's like someone who grew up today, with today's hits and will be sick of them years later looking back, yet these were the songs they grew up with. What other music would they listen to the most then...music of the 70's or the 80's, their parents music?

Incredible, the music we grew up with are now today's oldies for today's kids.

 

[calguy]

Why would emulating a format execution style that passed on to that great tuner in the sky decades ago be so attractive today? If I wanted tp hear pukers and pot whippers, I have airchecks of some really good pukers I can pull up on the computer!

You know David they weren't all pukers and pot whippers. In major markets (Ooh remember when major market meant something?) you had the cream of the crop for the most part. People that honed their craft in the small, medium and then large markets before they were ever allowed to crack a mic in a top 10 city. I would give anything to hear these Top 40 professionals on the air here today. I don't know that I would call someone like Big Ron O'Brien or Bobby Ocean a puker or pot whipper. O'Brien was still on the air till he passed on and quite successful too. Ocean still works from time to time in San Francisco and sounds great every time he's on. They could teach these younger jocks a thing or two as well. While modern research and technology has brought parity to radio, it's also robbed it of much of the passion and professionalism that was the norm in the majors back in the "old days"...

Happy belated birthday by the way!

 

[RealityBites]

This is an easy one and ya'll are missing the point.

Why do people tune in to oldies?

To take a break from current life and go back to their youth for 3 minutes.
We think of times with less stress and more hope. It is a fact.
Generally if you hear a song that you haven't heard in years
you go back in time and everything seems to be on pause for those 3 minutes.

Then the song ends, you realize this world is upside down and current music is lame.
And then just when you think you found an oasis, KEARTH plays
Brown Eyed Girl. God help us all.

As a musician who plays out often and has been in bands for 20 years one of my favorite
signs on display at an open mic was:

"No Brown Eyed Girl and No Mustang Sally" See you can have too much of a good thing.



My point is that it isn't the songs, it's the feeling that make oldies special to a lot of folks.

And DE is right K-EARTH is not an easy sell sales wise. I have first hand knowledge of this.
There are zero easy sells in Los Angeles. Happy birthday DE!

 

[airpab]

DE-

C'mon? Sometimes I think you argue just to argue?

Name a station on Mt. Wilson that has a better "overall" signal then KRTH's? KRTH easily covers L.A., OC, The IE, Ventura, Simi Valley with a strong, clear signal. Most of San Diego County and all the way up past Santa Barbara too!
MY1043 maybe?

And for an Oldies/Classic Hits station to be in the Top 10 (let alone Number 1) in a major market, is nothing short of spectacular. It says that this music has a broad appeal, with at least a passive, accepting listenership in the younger crowd. (in the car with Mom or Dad or in stores)

You didn't even address the fact that KRTH is blasting in many local places of business all over SoCal? That fact alone has got to be a factor when selling the station. First, with all of the passive listeners in the store, hearing the music and jingles...and then many of them liking what they hear and possibly even tuning in when they get in their cars?

Is that accounted for in the PPM's?? Probably not, but is it not frosting on the cake for an Ad sell? I'm reasonably sure that the Ad Reps are very aware of this and play it up appropriately when pitching the station or cluster of stations.

And the Top 40 sound is far from a memory. It is a time-tested formula that continues to thrive. When the Jocks are talented and having fun, liking the music and the personalities are allowed to come out, the audience is having fun!!...and that translates in to success and a more active listenership. (Q-105/Tampa, KOOL/PHX, WCBS/NY...etc....All doing very well)....I think we'll see a resurgence in Personality/Jingle/Listener Interactive/Fun driven radio!

Kaye & Co. have succeeded in solidfying KRTH, as being synonomous with SoCal...a fact no one, even you DE, can dispute!

 

[justpassingthough]

DE-

C'mon? Sometimes I think you argue just to argue?

Name a station on Mt. Wilson that has a better "overall" signal then KRTH's? KRTH easily covers L.A., OC, The IE, Ventura, Simi Valley with a strong, clear signal. Most of San Diego County and all the way up past Santa Barbara too!
MY1043 maybe?

And for an Oldies/Classic Hits station to be in the Top 10 (let alone Number 1) in a major market, is nothing short of spectacular. It says that this music has a broad appeal, with at least a passive, accepting listenership in the younger crowd. (in the car with Mom or Dad or in stores)

You didn't even address the fact that KRTH is blasting in many local places of business all over SoCal? That fact alone has got to be a factor when selling the station. First, with all of the passive listeners in the store, hearing the music and jingles...and then many of them liking what they hear and possibly even tuning in when they get in their cars?

Is that accounted for in the PPM's?? Probably not, but is it not frosting on the cake for an Ad sell? I'm reasonably sure that the Ad Reps are very aware of this and play it up appropriately when pitching the station or cluster of stations.

And the Top 40 sound is far from a memory. It is a time-tested formula that continues to thrive. When the Jocks are talented and having fun, liking the music and the personalities are allowed to come out, the audience is having fun!!...and that translates in to success and a more active listenership. (Q-105/Tampa, KOOL/PHX, WCBS/NY...etc....All doing very well)....I think we'll see a resurgence in Personality/Jingle/Listener Interactive/Fun driven radio!

Kaye & Co. have succeeded in solidfying KRTH, as being synonomous with SoCal...a fact no one, even you DE, can dispute!

When it comes to "KRTH blasting all over the place in SoCal", I think this is a case of selective listening. Background music in most businesses is just that- background. If you hear something you like, you will take note. If you walk into a place that is playing country or hip hop and you don't like these genres, you may not notice, you may cringe. You move on all the same.

Its doubtful that anyone hears KRTH in the store or place of business, and seeks it out. KRTH is a well established station. Its listeners are its listeners, but as David pointed out, there are plenty of people who just plain don't like it. I'm 28, I like a wide variety of music and like some to most of what KRTH plays, but I never listen because I think the presentation is cheesy and sounds old. It doesn't relate to my lifestyle.

Personally, and apparently I am just as valid a random sample as anyone else on this board, I don't hear KRTH playing in a alot of businesses. I started to pay more attention in the past few days as this thread was evolving, and I hear a mix of stations that includes KRTH, KBIG, Jack, KIIS, Power- the list goes on and on.

 

[airpab]

justpassingthrough-

KRTH is Number 1 in L.A. (and by the way, KOLA, where KRTH easily covers, is Numero Uno in the IE) !!

So, for any Oldies station to be in the Top 10 in a major market, indicates that this is a very viable format!

That's essentially what I'm trying to argue!

 

[justpassingthough]

justpassingthrough-

KRTH is Number 1 in L.A. (and by the way, KOLA, where KRTH easily covers, is Numero Uno in the IE) !!

So, for any Oldies station to be in the Top 10 in a major market, indicates that this is a very viable format!

That's essentially what I'm trying to argue!

I don't think anyone is trying to disagree about the viability of this format. Its just that some of the claims on here are rather outrageous, and not based in fact. Any argument is most likely an attempt to improve on what is certainly a viable format.

KRTH is #11 in 25-54, so there is room for improvement. The claims that it a) "plays the best music", b) "plays music that everyone likes" and c)"KRTH is the sound of SoCal" are simply opinion, and are largely not supported by the facts. Thats all some of us are trying to point out.

 

[davideduardo]

Name a station on Mt. Wilson that has a better "overall" signal then KRTH's?

I did quick maps (not Langley Rice ones that take too much time) of the Wilson signals that are 25 kw or more. The difference in the 64 dbu contours between the least of them, KCBS, and the best, KBIG, is a couple of miles. That means that they all cover the LA MSA except for a tiny piece of Orange County south of Laguna Niguel. Those signals are KBIG, KTWV, KRTH, KHHT, KLOS, and KLVE.

KRTH easily covers L.A., OC, The IE, Ventura, Simi Valley with a strong, clear signal.

None of them have what is considered the minimum signal for in home and at work rated listening, 64 dbu, in Ventura County (except for a tiny slice SE of Camarillo... which is in an unrated zone anyway). Similarly, they cover the closer parts of the IE market, but not all of it... and there is a big chunk around Fontana and Ontario that is unrated, too.

Most of San Diego County and all the way up past Santa Barbara too!

Nope, not with a usable signal where 70% of listening takes place... at home or at work.

And for an Oldies/Classic Hits station to be in the Top 10 (let alone Number 1) in a major market, is nothing short of spectacular.

It's 11th in the sales demos, as has been posted by our board's ratings expert, Radioresearcher.

It says that this music has a broad appeal, with at least a passive, accepting listenership in the younger crowd. (in the car with Mom or Dad or in stores)

No, it does not. What happens is that the PPM picks up "forced listening" by parents to a kid's station or by the kids to the parent's station. They don't have to like it to show up in PPM... they just have to hear it.

You didn't even address the fact that KRTH is blasting in many local places of business all over SoCal? That fact alone has got to be a factor when selling the station.

That is a point that sellers would avoid... it means "they didn't listen by choice, so I want to advertise on a station that the listeners want to hear and that they turn up to enjoy."

First, with all of the passive listeners in the store, hearing the music and jingles...and then many of them liking what they hear and possibly even tuning in when they get in their cars?

It does not happen that way. People ignore things they don't like, and have no idea that they were listening. Look for the Coleman study that shows that a big percentage of cume... that comes from passive hearing... is picked up by the PPM yet the person has no idea they were listening to that particular station... because they mentally tuned it out.

Is that accounted for in the PPM's??

Yes. If your ears can hear it, so can the PPM, and it gets counted if the listening is for enough minutes to get credit for a quarter hour.

Probably not, but is it not frosting on the cake for an Ad sell?

Not in LA. Transactional selling is "will you meet my CPP goals?" "Will you give me some remotes and contests?" Touchy feely does not pass agency internal audits or client audits.

I'm reasonably sure that the Ad Reps are very aware of this and play it up appropriately when pitching the station or cluster of stations.

It's likely they avoid that subject like the plague.

And the Top 40 sound is far from a memory. It is a time-tested formula that continues to thrive.

Yes, what share of listening does CHR (today's name for the same thing, thanks to R&R) have today in most markets? Usually it is about 45 points below being even a majority. And even in the 70's, CHR was not even the top format... so its only a piece of the total radio audience that wants to hear those songs again. And again. And again.

Kaye & Co. have succeeded in solidfying KRTH, as being synonomous with SoCal...a fact no one, even you DE, can dispute!

That's just not true. KRTH is synonymous with one lifestyle. The market has probably 60% to 70% of its population made up of people who did not grow up on Top 40 hits... so KLVE or KLAX or KDAY or KOST or KKGO are also reflections of pieces of the SoCal bouillabaisse of ethnicities, origins and lifestyles.

 

[airpab]

justpassingthrough-

Outrageous? Don't know that I'd go that far?

That's what Radio-Info is....a forum to express opinions and facts!

Actually, DE is inferring that this is merely a semi-viable format!

Let me say this, I wouldn't mind being in the Sales Dept for KRTH and it's cluster.

I think, and this is just a "claim"...that there might be more difficult radio sales jobs in the industry!

 

[airpab]

Bottom line.....This format works and works well in SoCal and many other Metro's!

KRTH and KOLA are Number One.....And The Walrus in San Diego, which is relatively new, came out of nowhere with this format...and is in the Top 10!

 

[davideduardo]

Bottom line.....This format works and works well in SoCal and many other Metro's!

As do many other formats. It's part of the fragmentation of radio formats that has been going on since the late 60's.

KRTH and KOLA are Number One.....

Not where it counts... sales demos. As I have said before, there is a reason Arbitron gives away the 6+ and 12+ numbers: they have absolutely no value.

KOLA does well in the IE, but it's not at #1... in the sales demos. Of course, the IE is a market where 65% of the listening is to out of market signals...

And The Walrus in San Diego, which is relatively new, came out of nowhere with this format...and is in the Top 10!

But not in the top 10 where it counts.

Classic Hits is a nice viable format. It's a bit of a hard sell, due to the very old leaning 45-54 intensive demos, but certainly among the 10 or 12 best format options in the markets mentioned. But this format is not "America's favorite format" by a long shot.

 

[davideduardo]

Actually, DE is inferring that this is merely a semi-viable format!

It's certainly viable in most markets, but not anywhere near the top of the list.

Let me say this, I wouldn't mind being in the Sales Dept for KRTH and it's cluster.

I would mind, a lot. And I've been a sales manager, owner and general manager... all of which require selling to be job 1. Selling a music format / station where half the listeners are over 55, and then most of the rest are packed in 45-54 is not that easy a task. News / Talk AM's have the same issue... but they make up for the disadvantage of demos by running 50% or more inventory than a music station, so they sell for less and make good money.

I think, and this is just a "claim"...that there might be more difficult radio sales jobs in the industry!

But, to use LA or San Diego as examples, there are 10 to 15 stations I'd rather sell for.

 

[surfdude]

David - come on, this isn't a sales seminar or research class. When this thread started it was about
K-Earth being the most listened to station 6+ in LA. Making it, when the thread started, the MOST LISTENED
TO STATION according to the only large scale research available.

99% of us aren't ad reps in the market, so we don't care about "sales demos".

Owners who make the decision to air K-Earth in their stores speaks volumes about the station's mass appeal.

Anecdotal note: everytime I fly into LAX, the rental car shuttle van, no matter which company, has it
on 101.1. K-Earth, more than any other station in LA, offers some of the history and magic that Hollywood and the music biz represents to visitors and citizens.

Happy Birthday David - you're now older thean K-Earth's target demo.

 

[radioray]

"99% of us aren't ad reps in the market, so we don't care about "sales demos"."

I'm sorry but you seem to be saying "cmon David, stop bringing reality into these discussions, stop being so serious". Sorry, but I would hope this board would be for radio fans but also for real professionals to explain why stuff happens.

I am actually someone who disagrees with David a lot (I still think a good sales effort and trained team can overcome to SOME extent demo problem, I know a station that overcame this problem by featuring an old Rolls Royce which they painted gold and then was called the "Rock and ROLLS" and took buyers around town, they got a lot of sales contracts out of that...). I also think DE is too conservative with his 300 songs playlists (yeah, I know he has some Jack type stations with over 1000 but he has also repeatedly stated for oldies station that negative numbers appear after 300-400 songs on music tests).

But I disagree with your viewpoint about his responses to this thread, sorry.

 

[RealityBites]

I guess you could say I'm a newcomer of sorts to this site. However I've spent several years in the business.....
on both sides. I made my career in sales, but I'm a radio guy through and through. When I first starting reading and posting here
I did think DE was a bit over the top. After many months of reading his posts, I've come to respect him very much. He knows one heck of a lot regarding radio. He also knows both sides. I don't always agree with him, but more often than not I do. When it comes to engineering or towers or
watts (I thought it was a bald guard from Seattle Supersonics) I know nothing. When it comes to music I know a lot. I've been a writer performer etc.
And yes I totally understand 'one hit wonders' and the impact of American Idol. So guess what? I actually learn stuff from some of you guys.
I also do not challenge what I do not know.

But sales is my area and I do have a ton of experience. I surely won't tell you how to bounce a signal off well anything and
you can't tell me selling K-EARTH is easy. For all the reasons DE listed above. Remember Hollywood Hamilton? I can't tell you how many
endorsements I sold for him. HH was a great guy to work with, but results were always hit and miss because it's RADIO!!! That's why having an experienced
sales person is so important. You guys deal with ratings and we sales guys deal with client expectations. Wanna trade sides sometime?

Both have insane methodology at times....LOL

And lastly, although I'm a musician I do consider myself a sales guy. As with you engineer types I couldn't imagine what you do, frankly I find it fascinating.
and I do love learning stuff on this board.

However Radio couldn't exist without sales. You also have no idea how hard it is to sell radio and get continuous results for your clients. All the DJ's here feel like they are disposable these days and could loose their job at any moment. Sales is just as bad if not worse.

Do you have any idea how many sales people lost millions on Tiger Woods? Those deals were done, in the bank. Now they are all getting pulled back.
That is a real harsh reality of sales. Please give us a little respect.

The irony is that on air "talent" sometimes looked down at sales people or took them for granted.. They make good money, socialize etc. But it is a very hard job. I wonder how many DJ's had to give back their cars after the endorsement deal went tits up back in late 2008. Kinda look at it those sales folk a bit different now huh?

The biggest irony of all is that Radio has shown lately it needs advertising badly but DJ's and program directors? Not so much. Automation is working for the suits. At least for a while......

 

[davideduardo]

David - come on, this isn't a sales seminar or research class.

Without sales, no commercial format would exist. And when we wonder about the future of smooth jazz or why we don't have a pure 60's based or nostalgia format in LA, we are seeing the effects of sales potential.

12+ numbers are irrelevant when it comes to building or maintaining a station. Even "research," which is just a name for "finding out what listeners feel," is based on keeping a station format viable economically.

 

[davideduardo]

I guess you could say I'm a newcomer of sorts to this site. However I've spent several years in the business.....
on both sides.

Please, please, keep posting and sharing your experience and opinions.

This is a great post, with lots of thinking points for veterans and wannabees alike. The Tiger Woods analogy is terrific, and anyone who has worked with a big morning talent knows that endorsements are like a beautiful castle... but with a moat complete with alligators surrounding it!

 

[cyberdad]

I guess you could say I'm a newcomer of sorts to this site. However I've spent several years in the business.....
on both sides.

Fabulous post. Your experiences, thoughts, opinions, and observations pretty much mirror my own. Save for the fact that I'm not a musician, and my interest in the engineering side of things. I'm also a fan of David's posts and of K-Earth (although as a member of an "undesirable demo", I'm a little more partial to K-Earth HD-2 product)!

Sadly, but honestly, I found your comment about radio needing sales more than it needs deejays and PD's particularly astute. As for the Tiger Woods stuff....didn't affect me personally, but I've been through numerous variations of that. (The most bizzare of which was losing a campaign once because a shark died!).

Heres another one for you. Media salespeople frequently have a reputation akin to used car hustlers when it comes to honesty and integrity. Indeed there'll always be a few sleazeballs out there who are an embarrassment to the industry. Yet I defy anyone to tell me a line of work where one gets lied to as frequently! Getting jerked around by the customers and by corporate management goes with the territory.

I'm not complaining. I love it! Its been good to me and my family for more than three decades. But creating a need for an intangible product is challenging. Explaining how your product can provide benefit to someone who doesn't grasp how advertising works, separating perception from reality in the mind of the person across the desk hung up on his/her misconceptions, educating 23-year old assistant associate media buyers, etc., etc. can be tough stuff. You can do everything exactly right....and have exactly the right product....and still not get the order.

A little tension between "church and state" is normal, and can even be healthy. But I have deep respect and appreciation for those who produce the product that I sell. They have veto power over sales. Technically, I could overrule them if I wanted to. 99% of the time I don't, because I've seen too many successful media outlets ruined by sales types.

Everyone understands that the customers (audience and advertisers) are the reasons we all have our jobs.

 

[oldies76]

I also think DE is too conservative with his 300 songs playlists (yeah, I know he has some Jack type stations with over 1000 but he has also repeatedly stated for oldies station that negative numbers appear after 300-400 songs on music tests).

Ultra conservative....oldies and classic hits stations are not even close to this "300" song level anymore...look at CBS-FM, look at KOOL 105.1, or the Walrus, or AM oldies 950 out of Denver, WLNG..etc.. Even KRTH is above this level, still too low for my tastes, but higher than it was before Kaye took over in '05.

D.E. it's 2010 now, not 1995...classic hits stations are beyond this limitation (ultra-tight playlists) that you are trying to impose. It does not work anymore, not now and never again. Listeners want choices, not boredom.

 

[Element9]

Good take from the sales perspective. Once worked for a tough ass but fair GM who protected programming at all costs but would always remind the jocks "nobody gets paid until we sell a few commercials." Jocks of course responded, "nobody gets paid until the commercials are produced." The "separation of church and state" analogy to sales and programming hit the nail squarely on the head. One of my favorite PDs had a healthy respect for sales people and also would tell his jocks, "everybody's a sales person in this business... when you're on the air, you're selling yourself and the station." Especially these days, it might be wise to remember that live, local jocks can be one of the station's greatest assets as on-air sales reps.