KRTH Top 500 Countdown issues

[oldies76]

But there is also a perception by some that the CBS FM of today isnt quite "legit", its not the same station that people remember from a decade ago. KRTH for the most part is.

KRTH of today is nothing like it was in the mid 80's and earlier. Yes, KRTH for the most part has been the same for the past 10 years...same old stuff, nothing really new (except for some 70's and 80's), daily repetition, specialties using a re-arranged regular playlist.

I'll give them kudos for their recent Z to A though, that was more along the lines of an 80's K-Earth or a CBS-FM of today.

You cannot compare the two stations, CBS-FM by far has the music and the specials to make them a full-fledged oldies / classic hits station, something KRTH was, back in 1985.

Jay Coffey really stagnated the station in the 90's, Jhani Kaye has improved it well to a degree or two, but it cannot match Bob Hamilton's approach.

 

[davideduardo]

KRTH does not even have countdowns, they have INFERIOR specialty weekends, which CANNOT compare to CBS-FM by a long shot!
If you bother to compare the two stations over several months time, you'd know what we're talking about. They have true Top 20 countdowns which go by actual chart data, not daily playlists arranged in a different order to simulate a specialty.

We're talking specialty countdowns or weekends, not daily line-ups. You Light Up My Life, a huge #1 hit in 1977, would be featured on a "this week in 1977" feature or the like. Saturday Night's Alright....could be played several times a week AND on a special.

But see, KRTH does not even highlight years or the real top songs. CBS-FM does that and makes it superior to KRTH.

WCBS-FM plays everything KRTH already plays and so much more!! You cannot deny that.

You are missing the overall picture of what numerous posters have told you.

First, program directors are not museum curators. It's not the job of a station to play the songs that once upon a time were hits. Radio stations play songs listeners want to hear today. And that means, no matter what the format is, that most songs from the past are not going to be liked by listeners today.

If you choose, ingenuously, to believe the charts from the 60's, that's all at your own risk. The fact is that the charts were influenced by all sorts of "forces of evil" and really don't reflect much of the reality back then, and certainly have no relevance today. At all. None.

A radio station is an ad medium. It's job is to attract listeners that advertisers want to pay to send messages to. If the audience is not what advertisers want, like being too old, for example, the station will lose money and change, eventually. KRTH is doing a better job of attracting a desirable audience than CBS fm is. And that, in the world of radio, makes it a better station.

The PPM seems to be showing us that specialty shows are not the magnet they seemed to be in the diary. In the diary, we used specialty shows to create benchmarks since benchmarks had a better chance of being remebered when the diary was filled in. In the PPM, we may in fact be seing that specialty shows let the listener down, as they tune in for what they think a station should be doing, but find it is doing something else. It's like finding Tabasco in your catsup bottle. The result is that those deceived listeners don't come back.

KRTH, with less of those oddity shows, and the top songs that listeners want to hear today, wins.

There will always be songs you and I don't hear on the radio but that we like a lot. That's why we had record players in the 50's, cassette players and even 8-Tracks in the 60's and 70's, CD players in the 80's and MP3 players today.

 

[scooty430]

KRTH does not even have countdowns, they have INFERIOR specialty weekends, which CANNOT compare to CBS-FM by a long shot!
If you bother to compare the two stations over several months time, you'd know what we're talking about. They have true Top 20 countdowns which go by actual chart data, not daily playlists arranged in a different order to simulate a specialty.

We're talking specialty countdowns or weekends, not daily line-ups. You Light Up My Life, a huge #1 hit in 1977, would be featured on a "this week in 1977" feature or the like. Saturday Night's Alright....could be played several times a week AND on a special.

But see, KRTH does not even highlight years or the real top songs. CBS-FM does that and makes it superior to KRTH.

WCBS-FM plays everything KRTH already plays and so much more!! You cannot deny that.

You are missing the overall picture of what numerous posters have told you.

First, program directors are not museum curators. It's not the job of a station to play the songs that once upon a time were hits. Radio stations play songs listeners want to hear today. And that means, no matter what the format is, that most songs from the past are not going to be liked by listeners today.

If you choose, ingenuously, to believe the charts from the 60's, that's all at your own risk. The fact is that the charts were influenced by all sorts of "forces of evil" and really don't reflect much of the reality back then, and certainly have no relevance today. At all. None.

A radio station is an ad medium. It's job is to attract listeners that advertisers want to pay to send messages to. If the audience is not what advertisers want, like being too old, for example, the station will lose money and change, eventually. KRTH is doing a better job of attracting a desirable audience than CBS fm is. And that, in the world of radio, makes it a better station.

The PPM seems to be showing us that specialty shows are not the magnet they seemed to be in the diary. In the diary, we used specialty shows to create benchmarks since benchmarks had a better chance of being remebered when the diary was filled in. In the PPM, we may in fact be seing that specialty shows let the listener down, as they tune in for what they think a station should be doing, but find it is doing something else. It's like finding Tabasco in your catsup bottle. The result is that those deceived listeners don't come back.

KRTH, with less of those oddity shows, and the top songs that listeners want to hear today, wins.

There will always be songs you and I don't hear on the radio but that we like a lot. That's why we had record players in the 50's, cassette players and even 8-Tracks in the 60's and 70's, CD players in the 80's and MP3 players today.

What I had heard regarding specialty programming, at least in NY, was that it was doing better in PPM. Hence, they repeated the two-week A to Z promotion only three months after it was first done. Then, they did ANOTHER A to Z, but with Christmas songs.

This weekend, they are doing four days of Drake's "History of Rock and Roll."

As for KRTH, they did their own A to Z, which was very out of character, only a couple months ago.

And one of the original A to Z stations, KLOS, is doing their annual A to Z as we speak. This must be the sixth or seventh year they've done it.

These stations would not keep repeating these special events if they were not getting results.

 

[scooty430]

Considering how many stations there are in NYC, to be #11 in the "desired demo" seems pretty good to me. Not every station can be #1.

First, there are only about 26 "viable" stations in NYC, meaning they are genuine players with signals able to cover the metro. Some are AM, too.

When agencies buy, they don't buy every station. They buy a few deep in each market (if it is a multi station buy) and they study reach, the collective number of people who will hear the ad on several stations. Stations are selected to provide the greatest reach for the buy, and this is done by eliminating stations that don't add to reach.

So 11th in the core demo is likely out of a lot of buys, as they seldom go 11 or 12 deep overall. And since CBS-FM does not do well in 18-34 and 25-34, it may not fit on all buys that want the lower end, which is where consumers are less brand-loyal and more prone to trying different or new products.

On the other hand, NYC is the second biggest market for radio advertising, so there is a lot of money, even now, and the mid range stations do much better than they would do in Indianapolis, Birmingham or Denver.

By this logic, any station below #10 should just fold its tent.

 

[scooty430]

I love people who survey "me and all my friends" and think stations should program based on that.

Sure. Instead, base it on a handful of rubes who are willing to hang out at the local Ramada Inn and do music testing in exchange for cheap coffee and stale donuts. Or, base it on the 10 guys in the market who are willing to strap a monitoring device to their side for pocket change, and also happen to listen to KRTH.

Do you see any fan sites and web pages for KRTH? Go ahead and google 'I Love KRTH' or "Radio is awesome" and see what you get. Then try "Radio sucks" or "I never listen to the radio anymore."

Now think of the passion KFWB, KHJ, KMET, or KROQ inspired. People truly did love those stations. They'd put a bumper sticker on their car, or wear a shirt with the station's logo. Do you see that anymore? Look at all the tributes for WABC online, a station gone since 1982.

Radio has lost its audience's love.

 

[davideduardo]

Sure. Instead, base it on a handful of rubes who are willing to hang out at the local Ramada Inn and do music testing in exchange for cheap coffee and stale donuts.

If the test is done in group fashion, the location is likely a Wyndham or Embassy Suites, a buffet is served at "break time" and the incentive can be as high as $150 for two hours.

And there is a growing trend towards testing on an appointment basis, at the listener's convenience or to recruiting respondants to do the test online.

Or, base it on the 10 guys in the market who are willing to strap a monitoring device to their side for pocket change, and also happen to listen to KRTH.

The PPM is a ratings device, and not used to score songs.

The reason most people no longer put any stickers on a care is that a long time ago, bumpers ceased being made of chrome...

Your lack of knowedge about bumpers is only exceeded by your lack of knowledge of research and ratings methodology, an enormous void and vacuum.

 

[davideduardo]

By this logic, any station below #10 should just fold its tent.

No, but it should not be claimed as wildly successful, as you continue to do about CBS FM

 

[davideduardo]

What I had heard regarding specialty programming, at least in NY, was that it was doing better in PPM.

Unlike you, some of us have access to the PPM data, and have tried removing specialty shows from the schedule and found that it works, particularly if the specialty is not closely related to the core format.

A weak long feature or doing Christmas tunes is not a specialty show. And the last two weeks of NYC PPM data were not kind to WCBS FM, so the Christmas thing bombed.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

If the test is done in group fashion, the location is likely a Wyndham or Embassy Suites, a buffet is served at "break time" and the incentive can be as high as $150 for two hours.

And there is a growing trend towards testing on an appointment basis, at the listener's convenience or to recruiting respondants to do the test online.

I wouldn't mind getting that $150 8)

On a side note, last spring Mazda and one of their engineering company partners contacted me to test my Turbo Miata's engine. They had my car for about 5 days, did the testing, returned it to me filled with gas, washed, and a $150 check to me. While they had my car, they loaned me a new Mazda6 also filled with gas.

Now as "to recruiting respondants to do the test online", I experienced that and it was really well thought out and thorough. KPRi the AAA station in San Diego (I'm in their 'Listeners' Club') sent me 9 separate music tests of AAA/rock songs each consisting of 100 song clips. Almost every single track tested I was familiar enough with. For each track, I had to check if I knew the song or not; whether I liked it or not (liked a lot, liked a little, neutral, disliked it, hated it); and whether I was burned out on it (for example some songs that I liked I checked that I was tired of hearing it). 900 songs in all tested in a two or three week period. They conducted the test a few months ago.

Now I admit that I was not a regular listener online (over the air signal is not strong enough even though they moved the XMTR to Mt Soledad) because their playlist used to be too safe for me. So I recently checked out their playlist and they seem to have tweaked it positively for more diversity, they cut back on a lot of the classic rock tracks they used to play. Mayyyybe the tests they conducted were a factor.

 

[davideduardo]

I wouldn't mind getting that $150 8)

In all truthfullness, only a few places require incentives like that. The average is probably around $75... with the young end requiring less, as, of course, to a 19 year old $50 may be more appealing than to a 45 year old.

Your experience with KPRI is interesting. I would guess they tested a listener club group and a random group of AAA partisans (recruited by asking if the person "liked music by artists like...." with a set of core artists). That you heard a change indicates that stations do listen to the listeners, despite what many here would like to think.

How did you get the songs to listen to? Did they direct you to a website? Was there a password? How much demographic and lifestyle info did they ask you? The area of online testing is relatively new, and it's fun to hear how others are doing it.

Your Miata experience is interesting. I was asked to attend a focus group for a car company a few years back... I'm in Glendale and they wanted me on the West Side at 5 PM. They offered $200, but I don't think they realized that nobody who drove their cars was going to put up with 5 PM traffic to Santa Monica for that rate. I didn't go, even though I participate in nearly every research project I am recruited for to learn methods and tricks.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Your Miata experience is interesting. I was asked to attend a focus group for a car company a few years back... I'm in Glendale and they wanted me on the West Side at 5 PM. They offered $200, but I don't think they realized that nobody who drove their cars was going to put up with 5 PM traffic to Santa Monica for that rate. I didn't go, even though I participate in nearly every research project I am recruited for to learn methods and tricks.

I forgot to mention, David, that Mazda made it easy--- They came to my office in Brea and picked up my car and left me with the replacement car. They also had offered to make the exchange at my residence, but picking it up at my office worked for my schedule. THAT is the way that should work, right?

Your experience with KPRI is interesting. I would guess they tested a listener club group and a random group of AAA partisans (recruited by asking if the person "liked music by artists like...." with a set of core artists). That you heard a change indicates that stations do listen to the listeners, despite what many here would like to think.

How did you get the songs to listen to? Did they direct you to a website? Was there a password? How much demographic and lifestyle info did they ask you? The area of online testing is relatively new, and it's fun to hear how others are doing it.

I got an e-mail directing me to a link-- The site I was directed to was an outside company, can't recall the name right now, but I checked the company's parent website, looks like they've worked with various radio stations of different formats doing these online surveys. Once on the site, they asked for my email address and my name and my home address IIRC and that was it. It then went to a site using a Quicktime player to access the clips. They even made you update your version of Quicktime before proceeding...It was simple though. Other than male or female, no other demographic or lifestyle info was asked for, maybe because they already had an idea of that due to the format's typical listener. Each test of 100 clips took about 20 minutes or so, many I didn't even have to hear the whole way. (Each full clip was maybe 20 seconds) I remember most if not all the clips were older than the typical re-current IOW the "gold" library. All in all, it was fun, I felt I had a voice, and I think I'm not alone in having input in shaping the station's playlist to a small extent. I wish more stations would take advantage of the technology available to them today. Sure it costs a lot, but if their #s improve, then it might be worth it for them. Cheers 8)

 

[briancraig]

David, you'd have to admit that today's stations don't generate the same kind of passion or listener loyalty as in the past.

Those who listen to KIIS or KROQ or KYSR today don't have the same feelings about the station as those who loved KHJ in the 1960s or KMET in the 1970s or the KROQ of the 1980s.

I understand that lifestyles and entertainment choices for listeners especially younger ones have changed since the days of Boss Radio and this might not matter one bit in terms of the bottom line, but you have to admit it is true.

 

[oldies76]

A week long feature or doing Christmas tunes is not a specialty show. And the last two weeks of NYC PPM data were not kind to WCBS FM, so the Christmas thing bombed.

Anything besides the regular rotation or deviating from it, is a specialty. It's something special. An A to Z, that lasts one day or 1 month, or a top 20 feature, or even the Top Party songs of all-time..etc.. is a specialty.

Even KRTH's "Parade of Hits" is a specialty, in their minds anyways.

Christmas music is special programming, it's not what you hear everyday.

 

[oldies76]

And the last two weeks of NYC PPM data were not kind to WCBS FM, so the Christmas thing bombed.

Not too many people really want to hear Christmas music 24/7 for a month, or even two solid weeks prior to Christmas, there's too much repetition. So the Christmas programming probably bombed on many other stations across the country, besides WCBS.

 

[cyberdad]

KRTH of today is nothing like it was in the mid 80's and earlier.

(Puts on "oldies fan" hat)

.....Yeah, but there's always the KRTH Classics HD channel.  I listen to it from time to time online, and it sounds great through my stereo, boombox, or walkman via FM modulator.  It has a little of the flavor of how KRTH sounded in the 80s. 

But personally, I find that the "Classic" version is a "shell" that gets rather hard to take after a while.  Instead of music that's been overplayed for 20-30 years, you get mostly music that's been overplayed for 40-50 years.  

The current version of K-Earth OTA is a much easier listen for me.  K-Earth today no longer has precisely the type of music I'd prefer....but hey...when I'm in So-Cal on business two or three times a year, I find myself putting it on in the rental car and leaving it on all day without tuning it out.  Usually its a well-done balance of energy and fun. IMHO, a superior execution of the format than CBS has been doing lately in NYC or elsewhere.









b

 

[davideduardo]

Not too many people really want to hear Christmas music 24/7 for a month, or even two solid weeks prior to Christmas, there's too much repetition. So the Christmas programming probably bombed on many other stations across the country, besides WCBS.

Yeah, like KOST in LA, going from 4's pre-Christmas programming to a 6 and a 7 in the first two weeks of Christmas music. Or KVIL in Dallas which went from a 4 to a 7.5 in the first two weeks of Christmas music. Or WLTW in NY that went from a 5 to a 7 in the first two weeks of the Christmas music.

In general, the ACs that did Christmas 100% went up significantly, while other formats attempting to do it, like KOST and WCBS, did not do well.

Lots of folks want all-Christmas, but they want the AC version, and nothing else.

From the results of the last 8 years, we know that this is not too much repetition and that it gets hefty increases.

 

[davideduardo]

Anything besides the regular rotation or deviating from it, is a specialty. It's something special. An A to Z, that lasts one day or 1 month, or a top 20 feature, or even the Top Party songs of all-time..etc.. is a specialty.

No, it's not. It's a feature weekend or a "special" but not a "specialty show."

You are trying to tell folks in radio what the radio terms of the trade are? That's funny, in a sick sort of way.

To a listener, the Surfin' Weekend is not a specialty show or a feature... it is just the Surfin' Weekend.

Even KRTH's "Parade of Hits" is a specialty, in their minds anyways.

Nah, it's just the Parade of Hits. Listeners don't put radio features in categories... they just listen.

 

[scooty430]

Sure. Instead, base it on a handful of rubes who are willing to hang out at the local Ramada Inn and do music testing in exchange for cheap coffee and stale donuts.

If the test is done in group fashion, the location is likely a Wyndham or Embassy Suites, a buffet is served at "break time" and the incentive can be as high as $150 for two hours.

And there is a growing trend towards testing on an appointment basis, at the listener's convenience or to recruiting respondants to do the test online.

Or, base it on the 10 guys in the market who are willing to strap a monitoring device to their side for pocket change, and also happen to listen to KRTH.

The PPM is a ratings device, and not used to score songs.

The reason most people no longer put any stickers on a care is that a long time ago, bumpers ceased being made of chrome...

Your lack of knowedge about bumpers is only exceeded by your lack of knowledge of research and ratings methodology, an enormous void and vacuum.

I guess all those Obama stickers I am seeing on cars are a mirage!

 

[scooty430]

The K-Earth 50s HD Stream is even less listenable than the actual station, because you are right: it is a really small playlist. It's also automated, which is a turnoff.

They should at least let Charlie Tuna do his own show where he picks the music, maybe on a Sunday morning or Sunday night. They could call it a "specialty show," a "special," a "special show," or "something special."

 

[davideduardo]

I guess all those Obama stickers I am seeing on cars are a mirage!

I don't think anyone, except maybe you, has seen fewer political stickers in this year's campaign than any time in recent memory.