KRTH Top 500 Countdown issues

[scooty430]

But mostly, the problem is broadcasters' goals. They do not want a core of loyal, satisfied listeners. They have zero interest in creating great art or innovation. They want a product bland enough not to offend anyone, and familiar enough to attract lots of people, 15 minutes at a time, a few times a week.

Result: boring, stagnant radio.

Ahem.

I've been in radio for close to 33 years, for more than a few as a Program Director. I AM interested in creating great art AND generating a core of loyal satisfied listeners. I've spent my LIFE working on these things, as well as creating radio that is successful financially. I could have been a Doctor or a lawyer, but I chose to pass on the big bucks to work in the area I LOVE.

Who the bleep are YOU and what the bleep have YOU done to make great radio? Anything? Bueller?

As Bart Simpson would say, eat my shorts.

I'm a listener, that's who I am.

And clearly you do not care what I, or any of the other millions of dissatisfied listeners think. You are too busy patting yourself on the back.

Again, I invite you and any other radio people to get online and type a few phrases into Google like "Radio sucks" or "Who listens to radio anymore" or anything along those lines.

Then you will see what we all think.

Close, but no cigar.

You made a false blanket assertion. And even YOU don't believe it. I just saw where you were saying nice things about Boston's Classical station.

When you (or anyone) make blanket assertions about the motives of others, you're just BOUND to run into trouble.

But you're right about me not caring about YOUR opinion. Because I also read where you were lamenting the absence of the Chipmunks at Christmas time...

Which proves you have no taste, and you're out of the demo.

I'm not out of the demo - squarely in it!

And taste is a pretty subjective thing. Even David would agree on that one!

Believe me, I am the ONLY defender of radio amongst my friends and family, so I am still here, and not disparaging everything. There are still great things to be found:

KUSC in LA
The KLOS A to Z
CBS-FM's Top 20 Countdown
WLNG
KFOG's 10@10
Some of the programs on the just canceled Indie.
Airtalk on KPCC

....just to name a few.

But, overall, the picture for radio is bleak, and there is little innovation or creativity happening. The average person has moved away, and radio has largely lost its relevance. If you do not see that, you are simply not looking.

Read the article from Wired. It states the scenario quite well, though it had false hopes for Indie. (It was written a few years ago.)

 

[Zeb Norris]

But mostly, the problem is broadcasters' goals. They do not want a core of loyal, satisfied listeners. They have zero interest in creating great art or innovation. They want a product bland enough not to offend anyone, and familiar enough to attract lots of people, 15 minutes at a time, a few times a week.

Result: boring, stagnant radio.

Ahem.

I've been in radio for close to 33 years, for more than a few as a Program Director. I AM interested in creating great art AND generating a core of loyal satisfied listeners. I've spent my LIFE working on these things, as well as creating radio that is successful financially. I could have been a Doctor or a lawyer, but I chose to pass on the big bucks to work in the area I LOVE.

Who the bleep are YOU and what the bleep have YOU done to make great radio? Anything? Bueller?

As Bart Simpson would say, eat my shorts.

I'm a listener, that's who I am.

And clearly you do not care what I, or any of the other millions of dissatisfied listeners think. You are too busy patting yourself on the back.

Again, I invite you and any other radio people to get online and type a few phrases into Google like "Radio sucks" or "Who listens to radio anymore" or anything along those lines.

Then you will see what we all think.

Close, but no cigar.

You made a false blanket assertion. And even YOU don't believe it. I just saw where you were saying nice things about Boston's Classical station.

When you (or anyone) make blanket assertions about the motives of others, you're just BOUND to run into trouble.

But you're right about me not caring about YOUR opinion. Because I also read where you were lamenting the absence of the Chipmunks at Christmas time...

Which proves you have no taste, and you're out of the demo.

I'm not out of the demo - squarely in it!

And taste is a pretty subjective thing. Even David would agree on that one!

Believe me, I am the ONLY defender of radio amongst my friends and family, so I am still here, and not disparaging everything. There are still great things to be found:

KUSC in LA
The KLOS A to Z
CBS-FM's Top 20 Countdown
WLNG
KFOG's 10@10
Some of the programs on the just canceled Indie.
Airtalk on KPCC

....just to name a few.

But, overall, the picture for radio is bleak, and there is little innovation or creativity happening. The average person has moved away, and radio has largely lost its relevance. If you do not see that, you are simply not looking.

Read the article from Wired. It states the scenario quite well, though it had false hopes for Indie. (It was written a few years ago.)

I refer you to your initial statement about broadcasters' goals.

While it may be true of some, it is factually not applicable to all broadcasters.

So do you stand by it, or do you want to modify it?

 

[scooty430]

But mostly, the problem is broadcasters' goals. They do not want a core of loyal, satisfied listeners. They have zero interest in creating great art or innovation. They want a product bland enough not to offend anyone, and familiar enough to attract lots of people, 15 minutes at a time, a few times a week.

Result: boring, stagnant radio.

Ahem.

I've been in radio for close to 33 years, for more than a few as a Program Director. I AM interested in creating great art AND generating a core of loyal satisfied listeners. I've spent my LIFE working on these things, as well as creating radio that is successful financially. I could have been a Doctor or a lawyer, but I chose to pass on the big bucks to work in the area I LOVE.

Who the bleep are YOU and what the bleep have YOU done to make great radio? Anything? Bueller?

As Bart Simpson would say, eat my shorts.

I'm a listener, that's who I am.

And clearly you do not care what I, or any of the other millions of dissatisfied listeners think. You are too busy patting yourself on the back.

Again, I invite you and any other radio people to get online and type a few phrases into Google like "Radio sucks" or "Who listens to radio anymore" or anything along those lines.

Then you will see what we all think.

Close, but no cigar.

You made a false blanket assertion. And even YOU don't believe it. I just saw where you were saying nice things about Boston's Classical station.

When you (or anyone) make blanket assertions about the motives of others, you're just BOUND to run into trouble.

But you're right about me not caring about YOUR opinion. Because I also read where you were lamenting the absence of the Chipmunks at Christmas time...

Which proves you have no taste, and you're out of the demo.

I'm not out of the demo - squarely in it!

And taste is a pretty subjective thing. Even David would agree on that one!

Believe me, I am the ONLY defender of radio amongst my friends and family, so I am still here, and not disparaging everything. There are still great things to be found:

KUSC in LA
The KLOS A to Z
CBS-FM's Top 20 Countdown
WLNG
KFOG's 10@10
Some of the programs on the just canceled Indie.
Airtalk on KPCC

....just to name a few.

But, overall, the picture for radio is bleak, and there is little innovation or creativity happening. The average person has moved away, and radio has largely lost its relevance. If you do not see that, you are simply not looking.

Read the article from Wired. It states the scenario quite well, though it had false hopes for Indie. (It was written a few years ago.)

I refer you to your initial statement about broadcasters' goals.

While it may be true of some, it is factually not applicable to all broadcasters.

So do you stand by it, or do you want to modify it?

I can clarify it, if you like.

I do think there are broadcasters who got into broadcasting for the love of it.

Some have managed to keep producing something wonderful.

Others have compromised. Take Rita Wilde on KLOS. Clearly, she's a rock fan, and would probably love to play all kinds of interesting music. I've heard her two hour plus U2 compilation of B-sides that she sneaks onto the station Sunday nights, and even seen her in the front rows at U2 concrerts. She picks the A to Z herself and it's amazing; it displays a deep knowledge for rock, and an uncanny sense of what songs would be great to pick off the shelves for undusting. She's probably a really nice person, too.

But the reality is she programs a station that for almost a decade ran the same 300-400 (by her own count) tired rock songs into the ground. It's now up to maybe 700, but still way too small to be listenable, especially to those of us that grew up with the station.

Sure, nobody is TRYING to create bad radio. But the desire to grab those casual, drive-by listeners, and to never, never offend anyone, has led to the most vanilla, dull stuff being aired.

Thus, commerce for the most part is transcending art.

 

[Zeb Norris]

So you don't stand by it, but you lack the cohones to say so.

Got it.

Carry on...

 

[scooty430]

So you don't stand by it, but you lack the cohones to say so.

Got it.

Carry on...

Huh?

You're missing the forest for the trees.

Overall, "radio is not concerned with aesthetics, it is concerned with selling advertising."

Said just a few posts above by one of your own.

 

[davideduardo]

But do you need a small playlist to evoke that feel? Nah. I argue you can get that "feel" just as easily on WLNG with 10,000 titles as you can on K-Earth. Both use jingles and old music to evoke pleasant memories. But 'LNG plays the big faves likes My Girl AND stuff you maybe missed, or forgot about. (And yes, often you hear a song that makes you groan, but another song is on its way, and that groan-inducing song will not be back for weeks, or months.)

I wondered when you would drag out WLNG.

Paul Sidney is a great local broadcaster, and WLNG is a great community station in a very small market (#268 nationally) where total radio revenue is approximately equal to that of nearby New York City's 22nd rated station. Now, there is nothing wrong with small markets, but I use the billing disparity to show that the WLNG situation is not the same as that of WCBS FM or KRTH and is, thus, irrelevant.

WLNG can do reports on the civic club meetings, announce lost pets and all the other things small town radio can do. They are a small community station, and the music is likely considered fill, not the main attraction, which is giving a small "town" its voice and life in the shadow of the big city nearby. Unfortunately, two-thirds of radio listening in the market is to out of market stations... you make your conclusions.

In any case, a Class A FM in a market of such small size is a silly and irrelevant base for comparison with major market stations in very different competitive situations and with very different community compositions and interests.

 

[davideduardo]

Read the article from Wired. It states the scenario quite well, though it had false hopes for Indie. (It was written a few years ago.)

They are / were off on lots more than mis-predicting Indie, but their assessment of that station typifies their head-in-the-clouds view of radio.

Print journalists seldom "get" radio. First, many writers have a greater familiarity with their personal tastes and nearly no familiarity with broad taste groups in any city or even the whole country. Second, many members of the print media are in competition with radio, so they tend to have overall negative feelings about the medium.

The Wired article simply has no grasp on reality. Nothing new... I can drag out articles from the 40's where print media opined that The Lone Ranger and The Green Hornet fomented violence among youth and made people loose touch with reality!

So much for print articles that purport to analyze radio.

 

[oldies76]

Ahem.

I've been in radio for close to 33 years, for more than a few as a Program Director. I AM interested in creating great art AND generating a core of loyal satisfied listeners. I've spent my LIFE working on these things, as well as creating radio that is successful financially. I could have been a Doctor or a lawyer, but I chose to pass on the big bucks to work in the area I LOVE.

Who the bleep are YOU and what the bleep have YOU done to make great radio? Anything? Bueller?

As Bart Simpson would say, eat my shorts.

Look at KRTH now and look at KRTH during the Bob Hamilton era..which would you prefer TODAY to support Scooty430 points about broadcasting and music? You cannot create a core of loyal listeners with daily to weekly repetitiveness of 500 overplayed songs (today's KRTH) with nothing NEW to create programming variety and to sound FRESH to your listeners. Seriously, who wants boring and stagnant radio? I sure wouldn't either. Compare the programming methods of CBS-FM in NYC and KRTH. Two huge differences many times over and the fact that CBS-FM caters more to the upper half of the 25-54 demo, with REAL weekend features that relate to what they (and we) grew up with.

When KRTH did the TOP 500 countdown earlier this month, it was just the TOP 500 songs they already play, in a different sequence. When CBS-FM does their countdowns, they relate to actual chart data, which correctly ranks the songs, as we remembered them, for example, this week in 1977.

Remember, the younger ages of the 25-54, did not grow up with the 60's and 70's, so to them, they could care a bit less about what songs are missing from these playlists. For us over 35, 40 or older, we know what hits existed and can figure out very quickly when certain songs are not played or repeated too many times.

 

[davideduardo]

Remember, the younger ages of the 25-54, did not grow up with the 60's and 70's, so to them, they could care a bit less about what songs are missing from these playlists. For us over 35, 40 or older, we know what hits existed and can figure out very quickly when certain songs are not played or repeated too many times.

Those younger ages will not listen to any station that plays mostly music from an era before they achieved awarness. The few exceptions don't invalidate this position. Oldies is 55, even 60, and over; most listeners are not of interest to advertisers in larger markets. Classic Hits is 40 to 60, with the bulk of the audience falling in sales demos.

No matter how many songs a station plays, some are better than others for today's listeners. Some are not played because they are poison to listening. People do not miss songs they do not like.

 

[Zeb Norris]

Ahem.

I've been in radio for close to 33 years, for more than a few as a Program Director. I AM interested in creating great art AND generating a core of loyal satisfied listeners. I've spent my LIFE working on these things, as well as creating radio that is successful financially. I could have been a Doctor or a lawyer, but I chose to pass on the big bucks to work in the area I LOVE.

Who the bleep are YOU and what the bleep have YOU done to make great radio? Anything? Bueller?

As Bart Simpson would say, eat my shorts.

Look at KRTH now and look at KRTH during the Bob Hamilton era..which would you prefer TODAY to support Scooty430 points about broadcasting and music? You cannot create a core of loyal listeners with daily to weekly repetitiveness of 500 overplayed songs (today's KRTH) with nothing NEW to create programming variety and to sound FRESH to your listeners. Seriously, who wants boring and stagnant radio? I sure wouldn't either. Compare the programming methods of CBS-FM in NYC and KRTH. Two huge differences many times over and the fact that CBS-FM caters more to the upper half of the 25-54 demo, with REAL weekend features that relate to what they (and we) grew up with.

When KRTH did the TOP 500 countdown earlier this month, it was just the TOP 500 songs they already play, in a different sequence. When CBS-FM does their countdowns, they relate to actual chart data, which correctly ranks the songs, as we remembered them, for example, this week in 1977.

Remember, the younger ages of the 25-54, did not grow up with the 60's and 70's, so to them, they could care a bit less about what songs are missing from these playlists. For us over 35, 40 or older, we know what hits existed and can figure out very quickly when certain songs are not played or repeated too many times.

KRTH is 3rd in the market. That's a large audience. And they seem to be pretty loyal, as the station's drop off when KOST went all Christmas didn't have a huge impact on their ranker. So it seems you CAN generate a large and loyal audience on 500 songs.

By the way, KRTH ranks higher in their market than WCBS in theirs.

As to paying attention to the charts of the day; that's a great way to lose. "The Ballad Of the Green Beret" was a #1 chart tune in it's day. If I was programming an Oldies station I wouldn't TOUCH that song outside of specialty programming. And according to Billboard, the #1 song of the 1960's wasn't "Hey Jude" (that's #2), it was "Theme From a Summer Place" by Percy Faith and his Orchestra. Not an entirely horrible song, but not something a good programmer would make his top played song on an Oldies station, not even his top song in a countdown.

Is it art? Well, probably not. But is any Oldies station art? I tend to think not. I'm a AAA programmer, so I hope there's the chance that I can create something at least akin to art. I recognize that what I do now is very different from what I did as a DJ at a Freeform station in 1976. But radio isn't the only thing that's changed since then, as is evident wherever you look.

As a AAA Programmer, I DO sympathize with the desire to hear more than 500 songs on repeat. But I also understand how that works for a large audience. And so I get a bit pissed off when people who don't have their careers on the line make blanket statements about how ALL of us programmers are a bunch of hacks who don't give a crap about music etc etc etc. YOU try getting a gig as a PD and then report back to me about how your 5,000 song station is great art and has great cash flow.

If you can do it, I'll eat my words and apply for a gig.

 

[calguy]

You're telling it EXACTLY like it is, bravo!

 

[evalmaster]

But do you need a small playlist to evoke that feel? Nah. I argue you can get that "feel" just as easily on WLNG with 10,000 titles as you can on K-Earth. Both use jingles and old music to evoke pleasant memories. But 'LNG plays the big faves likes My Girl AND stuff you maybe missed, or forgot about. (And yes, often you hear a song that makes you groan, but another song is on its way, and that groan-inducing song will not be back for weeks, or months.)

I wondered when you would drag out WLNG.

Paul Sidney is a great local broadcaster, and WLNG is a great community station in a very small market (#268 nationally) where total radio revenue is approximately equal to that of nearby New York City's 22nd rated station. Now, there is nothing wrong with small markets, but I use the billing disparity to show that the WLNG situation is not the same as that of WCBS FM or KRTH and is, thus, irrelevant.

WLNG can do reports on the civic club meetings, announce lost pets and all the other things small town radio can do. They are a small community station, and the music is likely considered fill, not the main attraction, which is giving a small "town" its voice and life in the shadow of the big city nearby. Unfortunately, two-thirds of radio listening in the market is to out of market stations... you make your conclusions.

In any case, a Class A FM in a market of such small size is a silly and irrelevant base for comparison with major market stations in very different competitive situations and with very different community compositions and interests.

I think we have to separate two elements of WLNG for this discussion. It is fun to hear the mix of songs that WLNG plays. I would listen to a KRTH or Walrus with that broad of a mix. The local element (civic clubs, missing pets, swap shop, etc) is not a necessity for a larger market station. Of course good personalities like WLNG has do help make the station what it is.
I have listened to WLNG over the air on Long Island and when the skip made it to costal NJ and something is "missing" on the stream. I dont know if its the lack of the hourly newscast or a little bit of the less than perfect reception.

I havent heard the ad for the local cesspool service lately. I dont believe I have ever heard an ad for something like that anywhere else. Its a true WLNG classic.

BTW, ENOUGH OF "MY GIRL."

 

[scooty430]

But do you need a small playlist to evoke that feel? Nah. I argue you can get that "feel" just as easily on WLNG with 10,000 titles as you can on K-Earth. Both use jingles and old music to evoke pleasant memories. But 'LNG plays the big faves likes My Girl AND stuff you maybe missed, or forgot about. (And yes, often you hear a song that makes you groan, but another song is on its way, and that groan-inducing song will not be back for weeks, or months.)

I wondered when you would drag out WLNG.

Paul Sidney is a great local broadcaster, and WLNG is a great community station in a very small market (#268 nationally) where total radio revenue is approximately equal to that of nearby New York City's 22nd rated station. Now, there is nothing wrong with small markets, but I use the billing disparity to show that the WLNG situation is not the same as that of WCBS FM or KRTH and is, thus, irrelevant.

WLNG can do reports on the civic club meetings, announce lost pets and all the other things small town radio can do. They are a small community station, and the music is likely considered fill, not the main attraction, which is giving a small "town" its voice and life in the shadow of the big city nearby. Unfortunately, two-thirds of radio listening in the market is to out of market stations... you make your conclusions.

In any case, a Class A FM in a market of such small size is a silly and irrelevant base for comparison with major market stations in very different competitive situations and with very different community compositions and interests.

The point of WLNG was that it sounds nostalgic, yet has a big playlist. All of these points you bring up are true, but it wasn't what we were talking about.

 

[davideduardo]

The point of WLNG was that it sounds nostalgic, yet has a big playlist. All of these points you bring up are true, but it wasn't what we were talking about.

And my point is that a station without what WLNG puts between the songs would not have many listeners, as the music is way to broad and deep. It's fill, between the real WLNG, which is the community voice of the East End .

 

[scooty430]

Ahem.

I've been in radio for close to 33 years, for more than a few as a Program Director. I AM interested in creating great art AND generating a core of loyal satisfied listeners. I've spent my LIFE working on these things, as well as creating radio that is successful financially. I could have been a Doctor or a lawyer, but I chose to pass on the big bucks to work in the area I LOVE.

Who the bleep are YOU and what the bleep have YOU done to make great radio? Anything? Bueller?

As Bart Simpson would say, eat my shorts.

Look at KRTH now and look at KRTH during the Bob Hamilton era..which would you prefer TODAY to support Scooty430 points about broadcasting and music? You cannot create a core of loyal listeners with daily to weekly repetitiveness of 500 overplayed songs (today's KRTH) with nothing NEW to create programming variety and to sound FRESH to your listeners. Seriously, who wants boring and stagnant radio? I sure wouldn't either. Compare the programming methods of CBS-FM in NYC and KRTH. Two huge differences many times over and the fact that CBS-FM caters more to the upper half of the 25-54 demo, with REAL weekend features that relate to what they (and we) grew up with.

When KRTH did the TOP 500 countdown earlier this month, it was just the TOP 500 songs they already play, in a different sequence. When CBS-FM does their countdowns, they relate to actual chart data, which correctly ranks the songs, as we remembered them, for example, this week in 1977.

Remember, the younger ages of the 25-54, did not grow up with the 60's and 70's, so to them, they could care a bit less about what songs are missing from these playlists. For us over 35, 40 or older, we know what hits existed and can figure out very quickly when certain songs are not played or repeated too many times.

KRTH is 3rd in the market. That's a large audience. And they seem to be pretty loyal, as the station's drop off when KOST went all Christmas didn't have a huge impact on their ranker. So it seems you CAN generate a large and loyal audience on 500 songs.

By the way, KRTH ranks higher in their market than WCBS in theirs.

As to paying attention to the charts of the day; that's a great way to lose. "The Ballad Of the Green Beret" was a #1 chart tune in it's day. If I was programming an Oldies station I wouldn't TOUCH that song outside of specialty programming. And according to Billboard, the #1 song of the 1960's wasn't "Hey Jude" (that's #2), it was "Theme From a Summer Place" by Percy Faith and his Orchestra. Not an entirely horrible song, but not something a good programmer would make his top played song on an Oldies station, not even his top song in a countdown.

Is it art? Well, probably not. But is any Oldies station art? I tend to think not. I'm a AAA programmer, so I hope there's the chance that I can create something at least akin to art. I recognize that what I do now is very different from what I did as a DJ at a Freeform station in 1976. But radio isn't the only thing that's changed since then, as is evident wherever you look.

As a AAA Programmer, I DO sympathize with the desire to hear more than 500 songs on repeat. But I also understand how that works for a large audience. And so I get a bit pissed off when people who don't have their careers on the line make blanket statements about how ALL of us programmers are a bunch of hacks who don't give a crap about music etc etc etc. YOU try getting a gig as a PD and then report back to me about how your 5,000 song station is great art and has great cash flow.

If you can do it, I'll eat my words and apply for a gig.

Fair enough. You raise good points, none of which I can really disagree with.

You have to admit that the "let's play 300 songs for twenty years" is a recipe for doom. Eventually, the audience burns out.

For K-Earth, they were really starting to sink a few years ago in the ratings with their deadly dull list of 250 burnt to a crisp songs. What saved them? Expanding the playlist. They added in an entire decade, and also jumped from 300 songs in the list to about 700. They also began toying with a few specials where they actually played 1000 or even 2000 songs.

Now let's look at the other station in town that does this: KLOS. KLOS perhaps attracts an OK demo of middle aged men, but their overall numbers get lower and lower. They've been playing the same songs for too long. It's just boring.

Eventually, KLOS will have to do something. They just won't be able to keep playing those same 500 titles forever.

What's been an interesting new entry? JACK. With 2000 titles (according to the PD) or 1000 (according to David Eduardo's search of Mediabase), they got huge ratings at first, and are still chugging along.

So here's the basic point: This "play the safe songs" approach makes sense in the short-term to get a huge number of people who will at least tune in a few times a week. But in the long-term, it makes people disenchanted and bored with radio. And this is why people, especially young people, are spending their time on youtube, Pandora, itunes, Last.fm, MySpace, AIM, and all kinds of other places. It's interactive, it's fresh, it's individual, and it's not boring.

A lot of otherwise talented people, perhaps yourself included, are caught up in this radio culture and pressure from above to do certain things.

 

[scooty430]

The point of WLNG was that it sounds nostalgic, yet has a big playlist. All of these points you bring up are true, but it wasn't what we were talking about.

And my point is that a station without what WLNG puts between the songs would not have many listeners, as the music is way to broad and deep. It's fill, between the real WLNG, which is the community voice of the East End .

While 'LNG's playlist, which basically is any charting song, is perhaps too deep to be a top 10 station, they could easily be a wonderful niche station in a big market.

And though CBS-FM or K-Earth could probably not get away with a 10,000 song playlist, and giving spins to Green Beret and Ringo (Ringo is probably their #1 song) they certainly could play wayyyyy more than a paltry 800 songs. There is no competition!

K-Earth in particular could do a much better job with the specialty shows and weekends.

But again, the point is not ratings. The point was the sound of nostalgia. And what I am trying to tell you is that hearing the same songs over and over makes them LESS nostalgic, not more. They lose their power to evoke a certain time, because they've been heard in so many other life situations.

 

[oldies76]

K-Earth in particular could do a much better job with the specialty shows and weekends.

But again, the point is not ratings. The point was the sound of nostalgia. And what I am trying to tell you is that hearing the same songs over and over makes them LESS nostalgic, not more. They lose their power to evoke a certain time, because they've been heard in so many other life situations.

An oldies / classic hits station needs to have a "nostalgic feel" to it. It's music we all grew up with, whether in the 25-54 or the 55+ demos. On KRTH, the lady jingles and legal ID's are great and is a start, but the music choices should reflect the nostalgia more and to do that, the playlist would have to expand and more revelant specials for the period would have to be added.

WLNG is a perfect example of nostalgia, also KDZA 1350. WCBS has excellent specials and countdowns to reflect on what was popular back in the day.

A great example would be an all 70's or 60's weekend, with a few news-clips from that time thrown in, a few memorable sport outcomes or even a few commercials from the time, as a show. And the 60's & 70's music would be the whole enchilada, not just the 300 you'd otherwise play daily.

 

[surfdude]

These discussions are fun, and everybody makes logical points.

The TRUTH is - the bigger the playlist of Oldies, the older the audience.

The smaller the playlist of anthems and big familiar hits, the better chance of getting some
35-50 year olds to listen. These people know and like RESPECT, MY GIRL, BROWN EYED GIRL,
and GET DOWN TONIGHT.

If you go deep, they go away because the songs are unfamiliar. And, yes even 45-54 year olds
are the YOUNG end for Oldies.

So, the only chance an Oldies station has for revenue, is to have a tight list to garner a large enough chunk of 35 to 54 year olds to compete.

I programmed my first Oldies station in 1991, that's 18 years ago. The playlist has gone from 2000 titles to
about 600. And, ratings back this up. Believe me, I'd love to play 2000, but every time we go to a bigger list, the ratings go down.

K-EARTH has done a masterful job evolving.

 

[scooty430]

These discussions are fun, and everybody makes logical points.

The TRUTH is - the bigger the playlist of Oldies, the older the audience.

The smaller the playlist of anthems and big familiar hits, the better chance of getting some
35-50 year olds to listen. These people know and like RESPECT, MY GIRL, BROWN EYED GIRL,
and GET DOWN TONIGHT.

If you go deep, they go away because the songs are unfamiliar. And, yes even 45-54 year olds
are the YOUNG end for Oldies.

So, the only chance an Oldies station has for revenue, is to have a tight list to garner a large enough chunk of 35 to 54 year olds to compete.

I programmed my first Oldies station in 1991, that's 18 years ago. The playlist has gone from 2000 titles to
about 600. And, ratings back this up. Believe me, I'd love to play 2000, but every time we go to a bigger list, the ratings go down.

K-EARTH has done a masterful job evolving.

I think you have hit on exactly why we hear THOSE oldies so much. The younger audience knows them. Heck, I wasn't alive when Brown Eyed Girl was new, but it's very familiar. Yet if I listen to an XM or CBS countdown from 1967, (I think it's 67, right?) even just the top 10, I'll often hear songs I've never heard.

This shows that K-Earth is in fact NOT offering nostalgia. They are offering familiarity. They are treating oldies as currents. Anyone actually feeling nostalgia when they hear an oldie is really too old for the advertisers. (Which is a silly shame in this day and age, but that's another topic.)

What I would argue is that if K-Earth and CBS-FM put in some OTHER oldies, young people would begin to learn about them, and maybe eventually like them. This is how all the kids (like myself) growing up in the 80s learned about what is now called "classic rock," but was then just called rock. We were hearing old Zep, Floyd, Beatles, etc on the radio, and we enjoyed it. (And they went deep back then, by the way.)

 

[scooty430]

K-Earth in particular could do a much better job with the specialty shows and weekends.

But again, the point is not ratings. The point was the sound of nostalgia. And what I am trying to tell you is that hearing the same songs over and over makes them LESS nostalgic, not more. They lose their power to evoke a certain time, because they've been heard in so many other life situations.

An oldies / classic hits station needs to have a "nostalgic feel" to it. It's music we all grew up with, whether in the 25-54 or the 55+ demos. On KRTH, the lady jingles and legal ID's are great and is a start, but the music choices should reflect the nostalgia more and to do that, the playlist would have to expand and more revelant specials for the period would have to be added.

WLNG is a perfect example of nostalgia, also KDZA 1350. WCBS has excellent specials and countdowns to reflect on what was popular back in the day.

A great example would be an all 70's or 60's weekend, with a few news-clips from that time thrown in, a few memorable sport outcomes or even a few commercials from the time, as a show. And the 60's & 70's music would be the whole enchilada, not just the 300 you'd otherwise play daily.

Agreed. Fun ways to really make it nostalgic might be:

- Go a month where each day you play only songs from a particular year. Start in 54 and end in 84.
- Have a show where you do only songs from one year (for example, KFOG's 10@10, which, by the way, goes very deep and is so popular they made their HD2 channel wall-to-wall 10@10)
- Replay airchecks from a certain day using old jingles and news reports.
- Do a weekend where each hour you do music from this month. For example, 10am you do January 54, then 11am January 55.... Or mix them up.
- Do all the #1s in order. Or all the #2s. Or the 1s, then the 2s.
- Do a "summer song" weekend where you recreate each summer, the way it really sounded at the time, hour by hour.

But again, nostalgia isn't their goal. Sure would be fun, though! And since the A to Z still seems popular, maybe when that runs out of steam they'll try some new ideas....

Here is my favorite idea that isn't so much nostalgia but just fun/educational: The #100 weekend. All songs charting at a peak of 100. Just from a curiosity standpoint it would be really interesting! (Please don't tell me this is a ratings killer - duh, I know that!)

Maybe Bob Shannon can do this on his Behind the Hits some week.