KTRB/860: Say What?

[Rusty Muck]

A two-tower diplex with KFAX would clearly cost what KTRB has to pay for many truckloads of propane (NOT the Kerosene to which another poster referred; the zoning at the night site prohibits the storage of liquid fuel).

My apologies. Where's Hank Hill and Strickland Propane when you need them?

That still has to be a horrible expenditure. When Pappas selected that site, did it not occur to them that the expense alone carried the risk of total financial ruin? Or were they simply assuming that all of the future ad revenue provided from that potential signal might cancel that expense out? If that was the case, that's horribly myopic. Given that any other site simply didn't (or couldn't) work out to any satisfaction, it just looks totally unnecessary for them to even have considered the 50kW upgrade and move out of Modesto in the first place.

If it wasn't for this situation, any future owner would be certified nuts to move KTRB out of the Bay Area, heck, even back to Modesto! However, I wouldn't buy them if I DIDN'T have that option. Provided Pappas doesn't hand the license back to the FCC for total deletion, of course.

 

[DanStrassberg]

When Pappas selected that site, did it not occur to them that the expense alone carried the risk of total financial ruin?

The rumor that I heard was that the site was selected by a consultant that parted ways with Pappas before the final design for the night site was created. However, Pappas had bought and paid for the real estate before the new (and final) consulting firm was engaged. By the time that outfit was on board, time was running out; the CP was about to expire and the new consultant had to design, build, and proof the site under pressure of the CP being pulled for failure to construct. The whole story of the KTRB move sounds like a horror show from beginning to end (except that the end has not yet arrived although the horror show continues).

 

[Truthiness4DaBray]

When Pappas selected that site, did it not occur to them that the expense alone carried the risk of total financial ruin?

The rumor that I heard was that the site was selected by a consultant that parted ways with Pappas before the final design for the night site was created. However, Pappas had bought and paid for the real estate before the new (and final) consulting firm was engaged. By the time that outfit was on board, time was running out; the CP was about to expire and the new consultant had to design, build, and proof the site under pressure of the CP being pulled for failure to construct. The whole story of the KTRB move sounds like a horror show from beginning to end (except that the end has not yet arrived although the horror show continues).

Who were/are these consultants? - Pete

 

[DanStrassberg]

Who were/are these consultants? - Pete

I'm not at liberty to say; it would not be a good idea either, since I am admittedly repeating rumors. Still, you may be able to figure out who they are. But whether you try or not is up to you. And whatever names, if any, that you turn up, don't expect me to confirm or deny them, because there is no way I could guarantee that I was correct.

 

[Truthiness4DaBray]

Who were/are these consultants? - Pete

I'm not at liberty to say; it would not be a good idea either, since I am admittedly repeating rumors. Still, you may be able to figure out who they are. But whether you try or not is up to you. And whatever names, if any, that you turn up, don't expect me to confirm or deny them, because there is no way I could guarantee that I was correct.

Ah, very telling.

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

Maybe the A's could go back to that small non-comm they were on one year...KALX?

Or preempt Spanish-language programming on one of their old homes, 990...

 

[Madmansam]

Maybe the A's could go back to that small non-comm they were on one year...KALX?

Or preempt Spanish-language programming on one of their old homes, 990...

Or return to The Big 610...err..I mean The Not So Big 1550 KFRC.

 

[Rusty Muck]

Maybe the A's could go back to that small non-comm they were on one year...KALX?

Or preempt Spanish-language programming on one of their old homes, 990...

Or return to The Big 610...err..I mean The Not So Big 1550 KFRC.

Heck, why not KEAR/610?

I kid, but a Family Radio station still would sound infinitely better than having a silent flagship.

 

[HenryOchs]

Maybe the A's could go back to that small non-comm they were on one year...KALX?

Or preempt Spanish-language programming on one of their old homes, 990...

Or return to The Big 610...err..I mean The Not So Big 1550 KFRC.

...or prehaps 98.5 KFOX?

 

[travisl5678]

Putting baseball on any music FM is a bad idea, it is what killed KFRC 106.9 (among other things)

 

[DavidKaye]

Well, I did my study, for whatever it's worth. ND operation at night from the KFAX site would limit KTRB's night power to about 10W--probably enough to be heard beyond the site's property lines, but not a lot further. Looks like a non-starter to me.

Who does KTRB have to protect, Canadian clears, right? A cursory look at the positioning of the KMKY 1310 and KKGN 960 towers would seem to indicate that a pattern similar to what those stations run could work for SF and take enough off the back end to make it workable for the stations to the east and northeast. I'd say that about 100kw ERP would hit SF and about 10kw would go eastward using KKGN's current pattern. Of course I know that there is no correlation between KKGN's and KTRB's signals, but I'm just saying that it looks like it could be done. Or am I wrong?

 

[DanStrassberg]

Who does KTRB have to protect, Canadian clears, right? A cursory look at the positioning of the KMKY 1310 and KKGN 960 towers would seem to indicate that a pattern similar to what those stations run could work for SF and take enough off the back end to make it workable for the stations to the east and northeast. I'd say that about 100kw ERP would hit SF and about 10kw would go eastward using KKGN's current pattern. Of course I know that there is no correlation between KKGN's and KTRB's signals, but I'm just saying that it looks like it could be done. Or am I wrong?

I believe that CJBC is one of the lesser of KTRB's worries. AFAIK, the main ones are KPAM and XEMO. Based on KGO's protection of WGY, which is about 300 miles farther from SF than Toronto is, and KFAX's protection of WTAM, which is maybe 100 miles closer to SF than Toronto is, I'd say that 500W from a two-tower array comprising KFAX towers 1 and 2 or 3 and 4, is likely to be about all that would be allowed. I haven't looked at other Bay area AM sites as an alternative. Also, I am pretty sure that using all four of KFAX's towers would gain essentially nothing; the two additional towers are not in the right places to do KTRB any good.

Determining what protection of CJBC would actually be required is a little tricky, though. You can't use as a limit the radiation from KTRB's licensed night site because that protection appears to be WAY more than adequate. But KTRB is not required to protect CJBC on US soil. The protection requirements apply only to areas on Canadian soil where CJBC delivers a 0.5 mV/m 50% skywave signal.

The reason I investigated the KFAX site is that KTRB already uses it as its 50 kW ND day site. If you've followed this entire thread, you know that my first question was what power KTRB would be likely to be allowed operating ND at night from that site. The answer to that was ~10W, which I deemed to be not useful. The use of two of KFAX's towers to form a DA that would produce a figure-eight pattern with its main lobe toward the west-southwest and a minor lobe to the east-northeast produced a much better result. 500W would send a signal equivalent to a bit more than 1 kW ND over the west side of the Bay and signal equivalent to a tad more than 500W ND toward Toronto. Radiation toward KPAM could be essentially fully suppressed, whereas radiation toward XEMO ought to be held within the limits produced by the licensed (50-kW) night operation. I doubt that the 500W night power could deliver an NIF signal to 80% of the population of San Francisco (IIRC, KTRB's NIF is 8.<something> mV/m), but I'm counting on the CoL-coverage requirements not applying to an auxiliary site. I do not know for sure that the FCC allows such non-conforming auxiliary coverage, but it seems reasonable.

 

[DanStrassberg]

Who does KTRB have to protect, Canadian clears, right? A cursory look at the positioning of the KMKY 1310 and KKGN 960 towers would seem to indicate that a pattern similar to what those stations run could work for SF and take enough off the back end to make it workable for the stations to the east and northeast. I'd say that about 100kw ERP would hit SF and about 10kw would go eastward using KKGN's current pattern. Of course I know that there is no correlation between KKGN's and KTRB's signals, but I'm just saying that it looks like it could be done. Or am I wrong?

KKGN looks more promising than KMKY. And though the orientation of the 1310 towers would be better for KTRB than that of the 960 towers, the 1310 tower spacing and height are not nearly as appropriate as those of the 960 towers. The azimuth of 960's line of towers is 280 degrees true. KPAM is at 358 degrees. If the pattern had a radiation maximum at 280 and a minimum at 358, the width of the major lobe would be 2*(358-280) or 156 degrees. Radiation would have to be suppressed over a 204-degree arc from 358 degrees to 202 degrees. From a technical standpoint, it absolutely appears workable--probably with 5 kW. But the cost would surely be greater than that of adding low-power auxiliary night service from the KFAX site, because KTRB is already using the KFAX site. And given that KTRB's format (Savage) competes at least somewhat with KNEW's and KNEW is co-owned with KKGN, there is the possible further complication of CCU not being willing to host a KTRB night facility. I think it's questionable whether Pappas could find the funds for the less expensive of these two approaches, never mind the more expensive approach--although the diplex with KKGN certainly appears technically superior.

 

[DaveBayArea]

Anyone know what happened to the old 990 site in Collinsville? I often wondered why KTRB didn't try to go there.

 

[BossRadioDJ]

Anyone know what happened to the old 990 site in Collinsville? I often wondered why KTRB didn't try to go there.

Because I think KSFO still may have designs on that site for 50kW operation...

 

[DavidKaye]

[....]
possible further complication of CCU not being willing to host a KTRB night facility. I think it's questionable whether Pappas could find the funds for the less expensive of these two approaches, never mind the more expensive approach--although the diplex with KKGN certainly appears technically superior.

My impression was that all's fair in love and broadcasting. Witness that KRON 4 and KPIX 5 used the same analog antenna on Sutro for decades. KFOG 104.5 and KKSF 103.7 use the same antenna, as well (or at least last time I checked). Given that stations change format (and thus potential marketplaces) from time to time, I wouldn't think that CCU would prefer getting rent from KTRB over the concern about competition. Heck, KFRC and KSFO were co-located at a point when they were in direct competition, too.