KTRB 860

[DavidKaye]

Keep in mind that the process to establish this station goes back more than a decade, with procedures started to move KTRB's 860 channel from Modesto to San Francisco.

And there was this "thing" about being of Greek ancestry and not being able to buy a station in SF during the heyday of radio. Apparently the Pappas brothers held a grudge about this and planned to move into SF as a "we'll show you" gesture. At least, that's how the story goes.

But there is still the thing about the site. Nothing could be so poor. Anybody who knows anything about medium wave propagation knows that you find the LOWEST site you can, near water if you can, and with a clear ground path toward the target market. You don't put it in the hills where the signal is basically being pumped into a hillside. Look at the site (marked as "A"); there's almost 15 miles of hills and mountains between the Sunol site and the flatland of the bay. And one of the Bay Area's highest peaks, Mission Peak is directly in the way! Here's URL to the map: http://goo.gl/maps/OAMsB

 

[chris319]

After seeing the satellite view of the site, I like my KFAX idea even better. Don't build the Sunol site and go to a watt and a half nights from KFAX or off the air altogether at night if need be.

KGO may have been billing $40 million at the time but that's part of the problem. There was no way they were going to compete against KGO even during good times, not to mention KCBS and KNBR, though in their minds they may have thought 860 was going to be the next KGO.

710 AM in L.A. comes to mind as a site which is blocked from the metro by (the Hollywood) hills but that site is on the flat floor of the San Fernando valley, unlike the 860 site which is up in the hills.

 

[davideduardo]

KGO may have been billing $40 million at the time but that's part of the problem. There was no way they were going to compete against KGO even during good times, not to mention KCBS and KNBR, though in their minds they may have thought 860 was going to be the next KGO.

There were quite a few AM's billing very considerable money at the time the KTRB plan was conceived. KSFO was doing over $10 million at the turn of the decade, and even the pre-50 kw 1050 was in the $8 million range. There was no reason to think that a decent signaled low-frequency AM could not at least bring in $5 million to $6 million.

710 AM in L.A. comes to mind as a site which is blocked from the metro by (the Hollywood) hills but that site is on the flat floor of the San Fernando valley, unlike the 860 site which is up in the hills.

Being on higher ground is not per se a disadvantage. I have worked with or built plenty of facilities which were on higher terrain in areas "overlooking" a major market... ranging in power from 1 kw to 100 kw and they worked just as well as other facilities in those markets. The signal depends on site, path and the conductivity in the service market, not just the site. While a footwet or lowland site may have advantages, many stations with severe protection requirements have to locate far from the market so they can shoot the signal over that market in a direction that protects the dominant facility.

740 in LA moved from Santa Catalina to the hills between Hemet and Anaheim... far enough east of the market to shoot 50 kw over the desired area and still protect San Diego and San Francisco. The signal works.... and it is in a more obstructed, irregular, low ground conductivity than I believe 830 has to deal with.

830, also in the LA area, went to 50 kw some years ago and they did so by backing way east as well. Given their protection requirements, and even the fact that the transmitter is on the "other" side of the faultline, the signal is effective for the intended coverage area. Yet the site is in the desert, among mountains, and remote to the market. AM is not line of sight.

Radio history is littered with stories of sites that looked great on paper, but which just did not talk when built.

 

[chris319]

Any idea what KCBS or KNBR bill either then or now?

My point in bringing up 710 was to illustrate that it gets out perfectly well despite being terrain blocked from the main metro by the Hollywood hills. Don't know what the conductivity is there, but the valley floor does give it a nice ground plane.

1540 L.A. is another hilltop AM with an OK signal.

 

[davideduardo]

Any idea what KCBS or KNBR bill either then or now?

Both bill around $25 million per year now (although KCBS is partly an FM today).

In 1998, KCBS did about $32 million and KNBR did $35 million.

My point in bringing up 710 was to illustrate that it gets out perfectly well despite being terrain blocked from the main metro by the Hollywood hills. Don't know what the conductivity is there, but the valley floor does give it a nice ground plane.

Hills don't necessarily block AM signals, as the 740 and 830 examples show.

If you look at the distances, the San Fernando Valley location of KSPN is about the same distance from the center of LA as other sites like KTNQ-1020 and KTKN-1150. I believe that the SFV location was chosen as it allowed the station to be located north of most of the existing market population when it was built... a major concern as the night directional protects Seattle among others. Like many sites, it was chosen as it was the only one that worked given the directionality required.

 

[chris319]

<< Hills don't necessarily block AM signals >>

Precisely my point! 710 makes it just fine over the Hollywood hills into the metro. Was that not clear from my posts?

 

[davideduardo]

<< Hills don't necessarily block AM signals >>

Precisely my point! 710 makes it just fine over the Hollywood hills into the metro. Was that not clear from my posts?

OK, then why the criticism of 830 locating in a hilly region?

 

[davideduardo]

Any idea what KCBS or KNBR bill either then or now?

1540 L.A. is another hilltop AM with an OK signal.

??? 1540 is an absolutely dreadful signal. Part of the issue is the high dial position, another part is the directionality and still another is the design of the site. But to say it is an OK signal is a definite stretch.

KMPC-1540's 10 mV/m signal misses the San Fernando Valley, the Santa Clarita area, the eastern part of the San Gabriel Valley, Long Beach and all of Orange County; it covers barely 5 million persons in a market of 13 million. That's why it could no longer compete in English 30 years ago, and in Spanish 15 years ago.

 

[chris319]

OK, then why the criticism of 830 locating in a hilly region?

You should pose that question to the person who made the criticism.

 

[SFStatic]

Re the 'thing' about Greek ancestry...I'm a little fuzzy, as it's been about 20 years, but wasn't one of the other families besides the Snells that owned KEEN/KBAY a Greek family from SF? I believe they were in the restaurant business.