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KTU - Please.....

Jimi, once again, is correct. Radio is a business and unless someone can prove that more than the 3,000 club goers in a city are going to listen to their station why on earth would they take a chance playing unfamiliar music. They have a hard enough time getting the "popular" records to research. Imagine going to Coke or Pepsi and say hey guys my friends and I love this new (fill in the blank) flavored soda and I know that if you put it out in every store in America it would be a hit. What kind of response do you think you'd get? Probably the same kind that radio is giving. No research proving a theory equals no weight to said theory. This is all about Dollars & Sense. If it don't make dollars, it don't make sense. Welcome to radio past, present and future.Also, as has previously been well documented, this ain't Europe. Over there the music never left the publics eye and has, as a result, become part of the culture. And for the record, the music is having major problems across the pond as well. A bunch of American DJ's playing Europe in no way equates to commercial radio success here. Why do those same dj's not find the same success in America if their is such a demand here? I'm not talking about selling out some 2,500 person club. Anyone want to guess what the most popular Non-format show on KTU is? Not the weekend mixshows playing club music but Judy Torres' Freestyle show. How could that be if the demand for Club Music on the radio is so big?I can sit here and debate this all day, if I didn't have a job getting those hit dance records noticed, but unless someone wants to start stating some facts and/or research as to why this would work there really isn't anything to debate. I can't really debate with someone that simply states opinion all day. That's the way you feel and that's ok but without factual evidence that presents your side of the case better, I don't see how you'll gain any attention to your cause. I just read this post by MikeO (Energy98) this morning on another message board (I have tried putting the site here but the form keeps changing the name of it, interesting). He has programmed on the net where he can do as he wants and on an FM dance station in Phoenix. He sums this up best when he wrote:"The key to a successful pure dance station is that it has to make money. The only way it can make money is if it plays to the 18-34 (25-44 midday) demo and pulls the numbers. This can't be done by flushing songs that become 'too popular'. You can't have success and be obscure too. There are people(that) like to hear new songs all the time, but they are not enough out there to sustain a radio station."This is from someone that does this everyday and is on the front lines in trying to expose new music.jp
 
lalumia said:
...radio is not interested in helping anything' grow', except their profit margins(and why should they, they're a business,not a fan club)....the music business has always been about survival of the fittest,and dance isn't all that fit these days...pumping 'grooves' and six minute sessions of beeps,belches and squakes are never going to find the audience that radio desires...stick to the internet
Click to expand...
Maybe their (radio's) profit margins would grow if they played those GROOVES!!!If radio is truly about the consumer/listener, they would give people want they want to hear instead of what they (corporate) think they (the listener) wants to hear.
 
I think his point just was that the biggest numbers on KTU don't come from new music during the mix shows, but the free styling show of Judy. Which to me would spell its not what the current radio listeners, may be us fans, but not the masses.
 
JohnParker said:
Jimi, once again, is correct. Radio is a business and unless someone can prove that more than the 3,000 club goers in a city are going to listen to their station why on earth would they take a chance playing unfamiliar music. They have a hard enough time getting the "popular" records to research. Imagine going to Coke or Pepsi and say hey guys my friends and I love this new (fill in the blank) flavored soda and I know that if you put it out in every store in America it would be a hit. What kind of response do you think you'd get? Probably the same kind that radio is giving. No research proving a theory equals no weight to said theory. This is all about Dollars & Sense. If it don't make dollars, it don't make sense. Welcome to radio past, present and future.Also, as has previously been well documented, this ain't Europe. Over there the music never left the publics eye and has, as a result, become part of the culture. And for the record, the music is having major problems across the pond as well. A bunch of American DJ's playing Europe in no way equates to commercial radio success here. Why do those same dj's not find the same success in America if their is such a demand here? I'm not talking about selling out some 2,500 person club. Anyone want to guess what the most popular Non-format show on KTU is? Not the weekend mixshows playing club music but Judy Torres' Freestyle show. How could that be if the demand for Club Music on the radio is so big?I can sit here and debate this all day, if I didn't have a job getting those hit dance records noticed, but unless someone wants to start stating some facts and/or research as to why this would work there really isn't anything to debate. I can't really debate with someone that simply states opinion all day. That's the way you feel and that's ok but without factual evidence that presents your side of the case better, I don't see how you'll gain any attention to your cause. I just read this post by MikeO (Energy98) this morning on another message board (I have tried putting the site here but the form keeps changing the name of it, interesting). He has programmed on the net where he can do as he wants and on an FM dance station in Phoenix. He sums this up best when he wrote:"The key to a successful pure dance station is that it has to make money. The only way it can make money is if it plays to the 18-34 (25-44 midday) demo and pulls the numbers. This can't be done by flushing songs that become 'too popular'. You can't have success and be obscure too. There are people(that) like to hear new songs all the time, but they are not enough out there to sustain a radio station."This is from someone that does this everyday and is on the front lines in trying to expose new music.jp
Click to expand...
John, the same thing was said in the late 70's and early 80's about hip-hop music. That you had a few people going to block parties and street dancing didn't equal to commerical success. But the "experts" were wrong and they are wrong once again.You have to have a mogul like Russell Simmons step in and believe in the music. Once that happened hip-hop began to take off.What dance/house music needs is promotion and needs it badly. I mean, you can't even go into a music store like Border's and preview most of the new dance music that they have, but you can sure preview a hundred other artists that you have heard a million times before.You know, I really don't understand about radio sometimes. They say they want to make money, but they don't want to do the grunt work to make it happen. You cannot always play it safe in the business world in order to make a profit. Sometimes risks have to be taken. That is how the best ideas that we have today have arisen. If no one took the risk, then we would have the internet, IPOD, television, RADIO itself, etc. Also, I think a lot of the problem with the promotion of dance/house music is that a lot of corporate execs stereotype it as being twink, drug music and that isn't the case at all. They don't look at the young professionals (who enjoy the music) in their 20's and 30's who work at a Fortune 500 Company and make big money during the day. But they take that same money and spend it at night at the club or for other goods and services.Hip-Hop had the same image problem. But once individuals realized the universal appeal, it was everywhere.
 
hip hop has stars; dance has blips and bleeps....hip hop extends itself to soft drinks,sneakers, films, tv shows and video games;dance extends itself to spilled overpriced cocktails and illegal pharmacuticalship hop 'energizes' the US youth base; at the first sound of a 'deep house groove',that same youth base flees to the bomb shelters...hip hop ,even when it was relegated to corner parties, was still the sound of the 'street;'deep house' has never, and will never be more than a squeakhip hop was forced onto radio and mtv by a devoted fan base who knew every artist and every song; people stumbling out of a 'deep house' club at 4 in the morning have no idea as to who or what they've been listening to(and they obviously couldn't care less, or they'd go tthrough the trouble of finding out,but as it all sounds the same, why bother...)
 
lalumia said:
hip hop has stars; dance has blips and bleeps....hip hop extends itself to soft drinks,sneakers, films, tv shows and video games;dance extends itself to spilled overpriced cocktails and illegal pharmacuticalship hop 'energizes' the US youth base; at the first sound of a 'deep house groove',that same youth base flees to the bomb shelters...hip hop ,even when it was relegated to corner parties, was still the sound of the 'street;'deep house' has never, and will never be more than a squeakhip hop was forced onto radio and mtv by a devoted fan base who knew every artist and every song; people stumbling out of a 'deep house' club at 4 in the morning have no idea as to who or what they've been listening to(and they obviously couldn't care less, or they'd go tthrough the trouble of finding out,but as it all sounds the same, why bother...)
Click to expand...
but we're talking about dance music programmed for radio not 24 hours of deep houses mixes.
 
Hamp said:
JohnParker said:
Jimi, once again, is correct. Radio is a business and unless someone can prove that more than the 3,000 club goers in a city are going to listen to their station why on earth would they take a chance playing unfamiliar music. They have a hard enough time getting the "popular" records to research. Imagine going to Coke or Pepsi and say hey guys my friends and I love this new (fill in the blank) flavored soda and I know that if you put it out in every store in America it would be a hit. What kind of response do you think you'd get? Probably the same kind that radio is giving. No research proving a theory equals no weight to said theory. This is all about Dollars & Sense. If it don't make dollars, it don't make sense. Welcome to radio past, present and future.Also, as has previously been well documented, this ain't Europe. Over there the music never left the publics eye and has, as a result, become part of the culture. And for the record, the music is having major problems across the pond as well. A bunch of American DJ's playing Europe in no way equates to commercial radio success here. Why do those same dj's not find the same success in America if their is such a demand here? I'm not talking about selling out some 2,500 person club. Anyone want to guess what the most popular Non-format show on KTU is? Not the weekend mixshows playing club music but Judy Torres' Freestyle show. How could that be if the demand for Club Music on the radio is so big?I can sit here and debate this all day, if I didn't have a job getting those hit dance records noticed, but unless someone wants to start stating some facts and/or research as to why this would work there really isn't anything to debate. I can't really debate with someone that simply states opinion all day. That's the way you feel and that's ok but without factual evidence that presents your side of the case better, I don't see how you'll gain any attention to your cause. I just read this post by MikeO (Energy98) this morning on another message board (I have tried putting the site here but the form keeps changing the name of it, interesting). He has programmed on the net where he can do as he wants and on an FM dance station in Phoenix. He sums this up best when he wrote:"The key to a successful pure dance station is that it has to make money. The only way it can make money is if it plays to the 18-34 (25-44 midday) demo and pulls the numbers. This can't be done by flushing songs that become 'too popular'. You can't have success and be obscure too. There are people(that) like to hear new songs all the time, but they are not enough out there to sustain a radio station."This is from someone that does this everyday and is on the front lines in trying to expose new music.jp
Click to expand...
John, the same thing was said in the late 70's and early 80's about hip-hop music. That you had a few people going to block parties and street dancing didn't equal to commerical success. But the "experts" were wrong and they are wrong once again.You have to have a mogul like Russell Simmons step in and believe in the music. Once that happened hip-hop began to take off.What dance/house music needs is promotion and needs it badly. I mean, you can't even go into a music store like Border's and preview most of the new dance music that they have, but you can sure preview a hundred other artists that you have heard a million times before.You know, I really don't understand about radio sometimes. They say they want to make money, but they don't want to do the grunt work to make it happen. You cannot always play it safe in the business world in order to make a profit. Sometimes risks have to be taken. That is how the best ideas that we have today have arisen. If no one took the risk, then we would have the internet, IPOD, television, RADIO itself, etc. Also, I think a lot of the problem with the promotion of dance/house music is that a lot of corporate execs stereotype it as being twink, drug music and that isn't the case at all. They don't look at the young professionals (who enjoy the music) in their 20's and 30's who work at a Fortune 500 Company and make big money during the day. But they take that same money and spend it at night at the club or for other goods and services.Hip-Hop had the same image problem. But once individuals realized the universal appeal, it was everywhere.
Click to expand...
You're right. Nobody in radio takes a chance hence the stagnant airwaves. Radio once upon a time was formatted to serve the listening public and service the community. This is no longer the case as they claim it's all about making money but the fact is that radio is not a very lucrative business which is one of the reasons I got out of it.Maybe if they adjusted their mentallity a tad they could actually make it much more lucrative.Radio just simply isn't creative anymore. Maybe if they had some enterpreneurs to venture into unchartered territory instead of shaking in their boots about putting on an "unsafe" song they would actually make more money.
 
Thanks but I don't need the "this is the way Hip Hop started" speech. I was there. ;)Even have some hardware on the walls to prove it.I was at the company (and it wasn't Russell's) that put Hip-Hop on the map at Radio and while you'd think the circumstances are the similar, they aren't really. Hip Hop was all about making a dollar (being commercial) and giving people something to be entertained by. Hip Hop was so big on the streets that you couldn't avoid it. Club music is made primarily with the thought of pleasing some people in a club and is nowhere to be found on the streets in the major US cities I've been in. Dance music needs to be more entertaining. Dance Music needs better song writers. Dance music needs to put a lot of things in order before we can go marching on radio demanding they hand over the airwaves.Then you have the hardcore dance fans that when a track starts to get played at radio, you'd think they were being tortured. "Oh, my god their playing that track to death", "They've ruined that song for me". These are all paraphrases of things that I've heard people say when a dance song got on the radio. The people that support this music in the clubs don't currently have the numbers to get a radio station to go this route in any major market in this country. Is it right? Is it wrong? I'm not gonna judge, I just know what is and isn't.People think that this is drug music in the same way people think that Hip Hop is about shooting people. For the most part the generalizations aren't true on either side. They are just side effects of some of the people that participate in the respective scenes. Are all bankers really fat and rich? Not really. But some are. No offense to any bankers out there. :)The fact remains that this is about $$$. Executives are going to promote what sells as that effects their livelyhood. Radio is going to play what the demos that they are going after want to hear as that is what effects their bottom line. All of these companies have to answer to Wall Street. They put on the air the product that is going to maximize their numbers. This isn't new. They put a lot of money into researching what it is that people want to hear. They follow trends when they believe they are at a point of becoming mainstream. If not for MySpace does Cascada become a huge hit? Probably not. It's the same song but it was that "Research" that showed radio that people wanted to hear it. So they went with it and look what happened. Professional athletes just don't show up in the pro's. They need to show on a lower level that they belong. Pretty much the same thing with songs. Radio is simply put, trying not to walk on the thin ice. They are looking for solid evidence that a song will work. Give it to them and you have a shot.People throw around the "Dance Music doesn't get promoted" phrase a lot. But never have any real examples (much like the examples of all of this music dance radio should be playing). I can't speak for other labels. I can only speak to the job we do here and it's second to none. As for doing things different at radio, taking chances, etc, they are "Big Business". They do research and they put plans in motion to gain the results that they are looking for. If the research they do showed that they need to play more dance they would. It doesn't so they don't. You can debate that all you want but it won't change what's happening today. Again, it may be right or it maybe wrong but unless you have 100 million dollars to buy a station in NYC that's the way of the world. You can learn to play by their rules, it's their ball after all, or you can be bitter about it. Life's too short to be bitter. Change comes slowly and a little at a time. For those that don't know, I make my living in Dance Music. It's my job to find the hits and then get them to be hits. I've had the last 3 Top 10 Hot 100 Dance Singles in this country. Cascada, DHT and DJ Sammy. I know Dance Radio, I know Pop Radio and I have a pretty good grasp of the business that surrounds it.I'm going to take leave from this thread now unless there are some new factual stuff to talk about as I kinda feel we're going in circles here.Thank god for lunch hours....jp
 
JohnParker said:
Thanks but I don't need the "this is the way Hip Hop started" speech. I was there. ;)Even have some hardware on the walls to prove it.I was at the company (and it wasn't Russell's) that put Hip-Hop on the map at Radio and while you'd think the circumstances are the similar, they aren't really. Hip Hop was all about making a dollar (being commercial) and giving people something to be entertained by. Hip Hop was so big on the streets that you couldn't avoid it. Club music is made primarily with the thought of pleasing some people in a club and is nowhere to be found on the streets in the major US cities I've been in. Dance music needs to be more entertaining. Dance Music needs better song writers. Dance music needs to put a lot of things in order before we can go marching on radio demanding they hand over the airwaves.Then you have the hardcore dance fans that when a track starts to get played at radio, you'd think they were being tortured. "Oh, my god their playing that track to death", "They've ruined that song for me". These are all paraphrases of things that I've heard people say when a dance song got on the radio. The people that support this music in the clubs don't currently have the numbers to get a radio station to go this route in any major market in this country. Is it right? Is it wrong? I'm not gonna judge, I just know what is and isn't.People think that this is drug music in the same way people think that Hip Hop is about shooting people. For the most part the generalizations aren't true on either side. They are just side effects of some of the people that participate in the respective scenes. Are all bankers really fat and rich? Not really. But some are. No offense to any bankers out there. :)The fact remains that this is about $$$. Executives are going to promote what sells as that effects their livelyhood. Radio is going to play what the demos that they are going after want to hear as that is what effects their bottom line. All of these companies have to answer to Wall Street. They put on the air the product that is going to maximize their numbers. This isn't new. They put a lot of money into researching what it is that people want to hear. They follow trends when they believe they are at a point of becoming mainstream. If not for MySpace does Cascada become a huge hit? Probably not. It's the same song but it was that "Research" that showed radio that people wanted to hear it. So they went with it and look what happened. Professional athletes just don't show up in the pro's. They need to show on a lower level that they belong. Pretty much the same thing with songs. Radio is simply put, trying not to walk on the thin ice. They are looking for solid evidence that a song will work. Give it to them and you have a shot.People throw around the "Dance Music doesn't get promoted" phrase a lot. But never have any real examples (much like the examples of all of this music dance radio should be playing). I can't speak for other labels. I can only speak to the job we do here and it's second to none. As for doing things different at radio, taking chances, etc, they are "Big Business". They do research and they put plans in motion to gain the results that they are looking for. If the research they do showed that they need to play more dance they would. It doesn't so they don't. You can debate that all you want but it won't change what's happening today. Again, it may be right or it maybe wrong but unless you have 100 million dollars to buy a station in NYC that's the way of the world. You can learn to play by their rules, it's their ball after all, or you can be bitter about it. Life's too short to be bitter. Change comes slowly and a little at a time. For those that don't know, I make my living in Dance Music. It's my job to find the hits and then get them to be hits. I've had the last 3 Top 10 Hot 100 Dance Singles in this country. Cascada, DHT and DJ Sammy. I know Dance Radio, I know Pop Radio and I have a pretty good grasp of the business that surrounds it.I'm going to take leave from this thread now unless there are some new factual stuff to talk about as I kinda feel we're going in circles here.Thank god for lunch hours....jp
Click to expand...
I'm sorry but it seems more like you have a job demoting dance music rather than promoting it.With all due respect, it may be this kind of negative attitude and why it won't work that keeps radio and music as stagnant as it is. I hear what you're saying and you have valid points but it would be more beneficial to the music and radio to be creative and find positive ploys and niches inwhich to promote it be it in your head or on a radio board rather than posting to the world how it will never work why it won't work and how smart the execs. are that have no sense of creativity.Boring attitude=boring music and definitely boring radio! :)
 
Pretty big assumption from someone that doesn't know me.I speak in fact and not nonesense. What I said is the way it is in the real world whether you choose to accept it or not is up to you.Do you believe that we broke down the walls at Top 40 for our acts by thinking inside the box?Please...jp
 
JP is the ONLY person who has single handedly kept a 'face' for new dance records alive in the mainstream, which is the only place that counts....with crybaby proponents like you,attempting to attack someone like jp,this provides one additional reason as to why 'dance' is in the (well deserved) dumps based on it's current output and 'stars'....
 
JohnParker said:
Pretty big assumption from someone that doesn't know me.I speak in fact and not nonesense. What I said is the way it is in the real world whether you choose to accept it or not is up to you.Do you believe that we broke down the walls at Top 40 for our acts by thinking inside the box?Please...jp
Click to expand...
perhaps not although I'm not sure who "we" is but you can bet "they" are thinking exclusively inside the box in today's market!
 
the "we" he refers to is Robbins Records; you've been skipping too much school,you've got A LOT of homework to do!
 
lalumia said:
the "we" he refers to is Robbins Records; you've been skipping too much school,you've got A LOT of homework to do!
Click to expand...
thanks for the info.oh yea, you're the one that was sure MIX 102.7 was going to top the ratings.
 
Well its gonna gain a lot more listeners when KTU makes the format tweak. I guess we will be able to get refunds for the Beatstock tickets. Being a huge freestyle fan what i liked most about freestyle back in the day was that the music was very clubby and danceable yet the lyrics spoke of love and everyday life. The songs where more popish then pure after hours club music and thats what made it parts of peoples house. Another factor is the music ktu does play in its mixes are for the most part lame. I always wondered what it would be like if ktu had like a two hour all new dance music show what the ratings would be.
 
JohnParker said:
Thanks but I don't need the "this is the way Hip Hop started" speech. I was there. ;)Even have some hardware on the walls to prove it.I was at the company (and it wasn't Russell's) that put Hip-Hop on the map at Radio and while you'd think the circumstances are the similar, they aren't really. Hip Hop was all about making a dollar (being commercial) and giving people something to be entertained by. Hip Hop was so big on the streets that you couldn't avoid it. Club music is made primarily with the thought of pleasing some people in a club and is nowhere to be found on the streets in the major US cities I've been in. Dance music needs to be more entertaining. Dance Music needs better song writers. Dance music needs to put a lot of things in order before we can go marching on radio demanding they hand over the airwaves.Then you have the hardcore dance fans that when a track starts to get played at radio, you'd think they were being tortured. "Oh, my god their playing that track to death", "They've ruined that song for me". These are all paraphrases of things that I've heard people say when a dance song got on the radio. The people that support this music in the clubs don't currently have the numbers to get a radio station to go this route in any major market in this country. Is it right? Is it wrong? I'm not gonna judge, I just know what is and isn't.People think that this is drug music in the same way people think that Hip Hop is about shooting people. For the most part the generalizations aren't true on either side. They are just side effects of some of the people that participate in the respective scenes. Are all bankers really fat and rich? Not really. But some are. No offense to any bankers out there. :)The fact remains that this is about $$$. Executives are going to promote what sells as that effects their livelyhood. Radio is going to play what the demos that they are going after want to hear as that is what effects their bottom line. All of these companies have to answer to Wall Street. They put on the air the product that is going to maximize their numbers. This isn't new. They put a lot of money into researching what it is that people want to hear. They follow trends when they believe they are at a point of becoming mainstream. If not for MySpace does Cascada become a huge hit? Probably not. It's the same song but it was that "Research" that showed radio that people wanted to hear it. So they went with it and look what happened. Professional athletes just don't show up in the pro's. They need to show on a lower level that they belong. Pretty much the same thing with songs. Radio is simply put, trying not to walk on the thin ice. They are looking for solid evidence that a song will work. Give it to them and you have a shot.People throw around the "Dance Music doesn't get promoted" phrase a lot. But never have any real examples (much like the examples of all of this music dance radio should be playing). I can't speak for other labels. I can only speak to the job we do here and it's second to none. As for doing things different at radio, taking chances, etc, they are "Big Business". They do research and they put plans in motion to gain the results that they are looking for. If the research they do showed that they need to play more dance they would. It doesn't so they don't. You can debate that all you want but it won't change what's happening today. Again, it may be right or it maybe wrong but unless you have 100 million dollars to buy a station in NYC that's the way of the world. You can learn to play by their rules, it's their ball after all, or you can be bitter about it. Life's too short to be bitter. Change comes slowly and a little at a time. For those that don't know, I make my living in Dance Music. It's my job to find the hits and then get them to be hits. I've had the last 3 Top 10 Hot 100 Dance Singles in this country. Cascada, DHT and DJ Sammy. I know Dance Radio, I know Pop Radio and I have a pretty good grasp of the business that surrounds it.I'm going to take leave from this thread now unless there are some new factual stuff to talk about as I kinda feel we're going in circles here.Thank god for lunch hours....jp
Click to expand...
You MAY have been there physically when Hip-Hop started, but not emotionally.You keep saying that Hip-Hop was started from the beginning to make money, that isn't necessarily true. If that were the case, than the major labels would have been on the bandwagon from the jump.As far as promotion of dance/house music goes, there ISN'T enough of it. I can give you a few examples of dance songs that had underground flavor, but enough appeal to the mainstream, but were never promoted. I am going back a few years, so bear with me. Byron Stingily's 1997 release, "The Purist" had some great club tracks on it. Two standouts which could have easily been released on radio were, "Sing A Song" and "Get Up." They were both hits in the club, but not further than that. What about the Jason Nevins remix of Run-DMC's classic, "It's Like That?" Or anything from Martha Wash, Kim English, Michael Watford. These artists have great voices, but because they primarily do dance/house music, they are pigeonholed to one audience. You know John, you keep saying how much you know the business and how you are a dance music supporter. BUT a lot of what you say doesn't demonstrate that. If you are supposed to be the future of dance music, than that future is looking bleak.
 
If KTU dumps dance, I won't switch to Mix, I can't stand their jocks and the product just doesn't sound as good production wise... even if I had issues with some of ktu's music not being what I liked, at least I knew the presentation was tops... this would be like going from 5 course meal to fast food... this will just be my excuse to play my own selections or listen to an Energy stream from elsewhere...
 
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