KVNS (1700 AM) flips to Fox Sports

[tomservo]

I'm not over 55 but enjoy oldies. The more I age, however, there are fewer and few people under the casket-occupying demographic I'm finding who enjoy the old music. It's very sad, because there aren't many alternatives. The 50s and 60s channels on Sirius were gutted when they took over XM, and they lost a lot of their "oh wow!" factor. And streaming services almost virtually ignore anything before about 1975 in my experience. I'm listening to a user-created Pandora 60s station now, and within 10 minutes of starting the stream I got a Mary Wells "My Guy" that is a remake from the 70s or 80s. Guess the kids at Pandora don't know about original recordings. Spotify is especially bad. What little pre-70s content there is, is 80s "re-recorded for the CD era" songs with old washed up singers trying to cash in on the CD buying crazy. Bleh.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I'm not over 55 but enjoy oldies. The more I age, however, there are fewer and few people under the casket-occupying demographic I'm finding who enjoy the old music. It's very sad, because there aren't many alternatives. The 50s and 60s channels on Sirius were gutted when they took over XM, and they lost a lot of their "oh wow!" factor. And streaming services almost virtually ignore anything before about 1975 in my experience. I'm listening to a user-created Pandora 60s station now, and within 10 minutes of starting the stream I got a Mary Wells "My Guy" that is a remake from the 70s or 80s. Guess the kids at Pandora don't know about original recordings. Spotify is especially bad. What little pre-70s content there is, is 80s "re-recorded for the CD era" songs with old washed up singers trying to cash in on the CD buying crazy. Bleh.

Don't worry about it - with a lot of current top-40 artists taking inspiration from the 60's, you are going to see a rash of 60's like hits coming in the next few years. One up and coming artist even adopted a 50's personna: http://www.arianagrande.info/ariana/. And I know a whole lot of people considerably under 55 who are listening. They tell me things like "the music better" "the music is more fun", etc. I think there are a few influential people who formed stereotypes of oldies stations and listeners and conducted research that was flawed in order to support their foregone conclusion. I seldom get complaints from my daughter's friends when I play oldies at home, in fact they like it better than the hip-hop and cr@p they normally listen to. I'm almost convinced they would listen to an oldies station if it were available. Kids certainly do in Huntsville which has one. Yes, a lot of them channel surf to the other stuff, but oldies are on their radar.

 

[cyberdad]

I'm not over 55 but enjoy oldies. The more I age, however, there are fewer and few people under the casket-occupying demographic I'm finding who enjoy the old music. It's very sad, because there aren't many alternatives. The 50s and 60s channels on Sirius were gutted when they took over XM, and they lost a lot of their "oh wow!" factor. And streaming services almost virtually ignore anything before about 1975 in my experience. I'm listening to a user-created Pandora 60s station now, and within 10 minutes of starting the stream I got a Mary Wells "My Guy" that is a remake from the 70s or 80s. Guess the kids at Pandora don't know about original recordings. Spotify is especially bad. What little pre-70s content there is, is 80s "re-recorded for the CD era" songs with old washed up singers trying to cash in on the CD buying crazy. Bleh.

Good...and accurate...observations. You might want to try streams like "Radio Bop/Radio Bop 60s, Richbro, and HyLit" to name just three, which are programmed by people who "get it".

 

[rbrucecarter5]

A lot of us oldies fans - above and below 55 - are interested in streams, but more interested in something over the air - and respect from broadcasters for our musical taste - and ourselves. When young artists listen and draw inspiration from the 50's, 60's and 70's - when kids occasionally listen, when everybody instantly knows an oldies song on a commercial or TV show - they heard it on the radio. And the old chorus that all oldies listeners are over 55, we don't buy things, our format is outmoded and so are we - it gets a little offensive. Scratch that - really offensive, and it is getting old fast. I'm not ready for the rocking chair yet, and I may have the last laugh when I am the one texting and video chatting actual recording artists who are making music, while a bunch of focus-grouped program directors are pretenders and posers who don't have a clue what music is being produced, by whom, and where their inspiration came from. Focus groups, I think, can be manipulated by who you put on them to come to any conclusion you want to come to. I'd rather interface directly with artists, and with target audiences when I make my musical choices. KRTH, KLUV, KONO, etc - they may just be doing the same.

 

[pianoplayer88key]

Add me to the list of under-55 oldies listeners. There's a current 15(?)-year-old artist (Kayla Starr) who has sung quite a few 50s songs (she has a youtube channel) who is one of a few artists who follows me on twitter. Also I notice some songs on Radio Disney include elements from decades gone by, like Justin Bieber's "Baby", one of Pitbull's songs (forget which one at the moment), and one that doesn't get as much airplay anymore, Akon's "Lonely".

 

[tomservo]

I know the "over 55s don't buy stuff" is tried and true in broadcast circles, but it sure doesn't seem like it in real life. My view is probably skewed, because I live right on the edge of a tourism-driven economy area and when the summer fades, the snowbirds all flock in. They're all grey-haired, but they come down in their 150k motor homes or rent condos for the entirety of winter and they spend spend spend on dining out and shopping.

Without those that radio discards as tightwad old irrelevant listeners, our economy would suck for four more months of the year. So I certainly appreciate the retired but not ready to die types. (Yet there's still no station here that caters exclusively to them.)

 

[davideduardo]

I know the "over 55s don't buy stuff" is tried and true in broadcast circles, but it sure doesn't seem like it in real life. My view is probably skewed, because I live right on the edge of a tourism-driven economy area and when the summer fades, the snowbirds all flock in. They're all grey-haired, but they come down in their 150k motor homes or rent condos for the entirety of winter and they spend spend spend on dining out and shopping.

Without those that radio discards as tightwad old irrelevant listeners, our economy would suck for four more months of the year. So I certainly appreciate the retired but not ready to die types. (Yet there's still no station here that caters exclusively to them.)

The 55+ issue is no myth and definitely not a construct of radio stations. Ad agencies and large non-agency accounts simply don't buy 55+ audience, with the reason being that it costs too much to make a sale with persons above that age because they don't respond to advertising as easily as those in younger demographics.

Stations in smaller markets, particularly those that don't need to get agency business to remain viable, can often make money appealing to older demographics because they sell to local advertisers who are not sold based on ratings but on relationships.

 

[davideduardo]

A lot of us oldies fans - above and below 55 - are interested in streams, but more interested in something over the air - and respect from broadcasters for our musical taste - and ourselves. When young artists listen and draw inspiration from the 50's, 60's and 70's - when kids occasionally listen, when everybody instantly knows an oldies song on a commercial or TV show - they heard it on the radio. And the old chorus that all oldies listeners are over 55, we don't buy things, our format is outmoded and so are we - it gets a little offensive. Scratch that - really offensive, and it is getting old fast. I'm not ready for the rocking chair yet, and I may have the last laugh when I am the one texting and video chatting actual recording artists who are making music, while a bunch of focus-grouped program directors are pretenders and posers who don't have a clue what music is being produced, by whom, and where their inspiration came from. Focus groups, I think, can be manipulated by who you put on them to come to any conclusion you want to come to. I'd rather interface directly with artists, and with target audiences when I make my musical choices. KRTH, KLUV, KONO, etc - they may just be doing the same.

I'm amazed that you continue to believe things that just are unsupported by the facts.

1. "Oldies" and "Classic Hits" are "terms of the trade" and oldies is a 60's pop music based format.
2. Although almost all "oldies" stations are gone from major markets, those few that remain (such as KRWZ in Denver) have nearly no listeners under 55, and darned few between 55 and 64.
3. People over 55 buy things, but they have much more ingrained buying habits so it takes more ads ("impressions") to convince them to change preferences. The cost of making those impressions tends to erase any profit on any resultant sale.
4. Ad agencies generally have the age target of a campaign set by the marketing folks at the client, and they are not told to buy 55+ in radio.
5. There are so few 55+ radio buys by advertising agencies that some of use have never seen one come "up" (our national rep firms let us know of any upcoming agency buys so that they can present for us, and for local agencies we get requests for pricing so the agency can see if we meet the cost per point goals for the campaign... and they tell us the demo).
6. "Focus Groups" are not used for music research. Focus groups are generally applied, if used at all, to find out the reaction to a station or format or morning show overall... they are a perceptual research tool, which is unable to measure song preferences... just overall top of mind feelings.
7. Stations like KRTH et. al. use things like Auditorium Music Tests to measure acceptance or reaction to individual songs. Such tests are based on having a large sample of listeners in the target demo of the station listen to pieces of hundreds of songs, which they score. The tabulations determine whether and how much a song will be played and which songs will not be played. In addition, they use instantaneous song by song measurement of audience movement for every song every day to see whether some songs produce tune-out so that they can be eliminated.
8. Talking with artists is not part of the programming strategy of any of those stations.

I have programmed Classic Hits / Adult Hits in 5 of the top 10 markets, and am pretty familiar with the demographics that advertisers buy and the demos that stations go after to be "sellable" too. The real world is nothing like what you want to believe.

 

[gar hi]

What I've never been able to figure out is why so many oldies stations play the same select songs all the time and don't play all the countless other songs from back then, so many of which were big hits by well known artists.

How many times do people want to hear the same songs like 'Brown Eyed Girl', 'Sweet Home Alabama', 'Who'll stop the Rain', 'Margaritaville', 'I will Survive', 'Staying Alive', to name a few.

KVNS tended to do the same thing but not to the same extreme as many other oldies stations do and what made KVNS unique was that it was on AM where those oldies were intended to be played.

Classic rock stations also seem to keep the same songs in their format. How many times do you want to hear 'Aqualung', 'Stairway to heaven', 'Layla', 'Dream On', 'Hotel California', etc. Come to think of it, even the top 40 stations do the same thing and even more so with current music.

But getting back to oldies radio, I'm 50 and almost all I listen to is oldies and I'm still grateful we have an oldies station to listen to.

At least our oldies station Q105 has been adding much more variety to their rotation of songs.

And if there isn't a real market for oldies anymore, maybe it's because more people across the country are listening to internet radio where there is more variety than the average oldies station. Retroavtiveradio on Live 365 plays so many forgotten songs I haven't heard since I was growing up.


And another thing. Why are there sports stations on FM now?

There aren't enough on AM already? LOL

 

[davideduardo]

What I've never been able to figure out is why so many oldies stations play the same select songs all the time and don't play all the countless other songs from back then, so many of which were big hits by well known artists.

... because stations play songs people like today. A huge percentage of songs that were played "back then" are no longer liked; this is about radios stations, not museums.

How many times do people want to hear the same songs like 'Brown Eyed Girl', 'Sweet Home Alabama', 'Who'll stop the Rain', 'Margaritaville', 'I will Survive', 'Staying Alive', to name a few.

According to actual listener test scores, they want to hear them very often.

KVNS tended to do the same thing but not to the same extreme as many other oldies stations do and what made KVNS unique was that it was on AM where those oldies were intended to be played.

AM may have been where the 60's songs were originally played, but the message is the music, not the medium. FM is, in so many ways, better than AM. AM is the "Wonder Bread" of entertainment; once popular but now superseded by better products.

At least our oldies station Q105 has been adding much more variety to their rotation of songs.

Q 105 is, in industry terms, "classic hits." It plays only an occasional later 60's song.

While "oldies" may mean "those songs I grew up on" to listeners, inside the radio industry "classic hits" is the 70's based oldies format and "oldies" is the 60's based format. This kind of terminology is used so advertising buyers, often not located in the same market as the station, can understand what they are buying. "Oldies" is pretty much a kiss of death format description for time buyers who want to keep their jobs.

And if there isn't a real market for oldies anymore, maybe it's because more people across the country are listening to internet radio where there is more variety than the average oldies station.

"Oldies" formats get listeners... lots of them. But they tend to be mostly over 60, and that audience has little appeal to what are called "transactional" buyers... those who used ratings to determine delivery of the target audience they want.

Classic hits gets huge audiences, such as the Top 5 delivery of 25-54 listeners by CBS-FM in New York.

And another thing. Why are there sports stations on FM now?

Because listeners in the sales demos... 25-54, 18-49 and 18-34 (and all their subsets)... don't listen as much if sports is on AM. Or they don't listen at all.

Over the next 3 to 5 years, nearly every station of importance on AM will move to FM, start a simulcast with FM, or die in revenue.

 

[gar hi]

... because stations play songs people like today. A huge percentage of songs that were played "back then" are no longer liked; this is about radios stations, not museums.

I don't know who decides what you said but it makes no sense if you actually remember hearing all those songs on the radio when they were current hits.

There are SO many good top 40 songs that are ignored by oldies stations but I guess I'm weird for liking actual variety and having good forgotten memories brought back by songs I haven't heard since then.

According to actual listener test scores, they want to hear them very often.

Again, if you're a true oldies fan and remember all the good songs of your past, you should want to hear as much as possible from those days and not the same worn out hits you get tired of after a while.

There's a station in our market WDUV 'The Dove' that plays the more soft pop hits from the 60s through the 90s and they've always been at the top of the ratings most of the time and I think it's because you can listen to that station for days and never hear the same song twice.

That's real variety.

Maybe it's me but I can't grasp the concept of wanting to hear the same songs over and over and over again.

And I'm glad that Q105 seems to know that people want more variety too and are putting more of those great but never played anymore songs into their mix.

I don't know who dictates that we want to hear lack of variety because it seems to go against human nature.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

... because stations play songs people like today. A huge percentage of songs that were played "back then" are no longer liked; this is about radios stations, not museums.

I don't know who decides what you said but it makes no sense if you actually remember hearing all those songs on the radio when they were current hits.

There are SO many good top 40 songs that are ignored by oldies stations but I guess I'm weird for liking actual variety and having good forgotten memories brought back by songs I haven't heard since then.

According to actual listener test scores, they want to hear them very often.

Again, if you're a true oldies fan and remember all the good songs of your past, you should want to hear as much as possible from those days and not the same worn out hits you get tired of after a while.

There's a station in our market WDUV 'The Dove' that plays the more soft pop hits from the 60s through the 90s and they've always been at the top of the ratings most of the time and I think it's because you can listen to that station for days and never hear the same song twice.

That's real variety.

Maybe it's me but I can't grasp the concept of wanting to hear the same songs over and over and over again.

And I'm glad that Q105 seems to know that people want more variety too and are putting more of those great but never played anymore songs into their mix.

I don't know who dictates that we want to hear lack of variety because it seems to go against human nature.

All this sounds exactly what happened to TV - programming to the lowest common denominator. People want to see boobs and butts flopping around on TV, we get Kardashians and Snookie. Programs for people with IQ's under 80. People want to hear Hotel California ten times a day, we get Hotel California ten times a day. Talk about burn out for the rest of us who like more than 40 songs ----

Thank God for Dan Schneider shows on TV, thank God for a few local rim shot stations playing some sort of creative format. I just about want to vomit whenever I hear one of those same 40 or 50 songs come on our local so-called "classic hits" stations, which hasn't played a song by the enormously popular Beatles in years. Just look at iTunes best sellers if you think 60's artists like the Beatles are all washed up, irrelevant to anybody under 55, etc.

But then - according to the Twilight Zone, I am an outmode anyway. Along with the ever growing audience for iPads, satellite, Pandora, and streaming. You know what is really sad? Some people in radio don't even have a clue why radio's overall audience share is shrinking. Maybe they should look at some of their basic assumptions instead of being ostriches with their head in the sand, thinking they got all the answers as to why nothing is wrong with radio, or HD will solve everything.

 

[gar hi]

What it all boils down to is something I've always thought.

The common belief when it comes to the entertainment industry in general is that they give us "what the people want".

No.

In general, they prescribe what we're supposed to want and if that can be pushed on the public enough, they have no choice but to subscribe to it.

When it comes to the movies and TV, the common misconception is that 'art imitates life' but it's actually more a case of the other way around.

Hollywood doesn't follow trends. They mostly set them and the people follow their example.

I know this is getting off the topic of radio programming but if playing the same select songs over and over again is what has been decided we're supposed to like, the people will follow through.

 

[davideduardo]

I know this is getting off the topic of radio programming but if playing the same select songs over and over again is what has been decided we're supposed to like, the people will follow through.

Actually, classic hits stations "try out" hundreds and hundreds of songs under the "what if?" proposition. Any song that got significant local airplay and charted on the CHR stations would be tested with station listeners or potential listeners.

Often, songs that are rejected by a small margin are retested in a year or so just in case they have turned more positive due to having rested. And, of course, as each year passes, some older songs are killed and some newer ones are added to keep the format targeted at the right demos.

Songs on charts may not have been as popular locally due to factors like less airplay, ethnic tastes, etc. And many charts from the 60's and 70's contain songs that did not belong on the charts due to record label practices.

So stations don't force a format on listeners... who are free to pick other formats or delivery methods... and who have been consulted (via highly accurate sampling methods) as to the songs they like and dislike.

And stations in PPM markets, like Tampa / St Petersburg, can get data that shows the reaction to every song every time each is played and find which ones consistently cause audience loss.

Stations make their income by selling pairs of ears to advertisers and they make more in proportion to audience size. Programming what the station wants to play is always a bad method of attracting audience; consulting listeners and providing what they want is the normal and usual practice by competitive stations.

 

[davideduardo]

... because stations play songs people like today. A huge percentage of songs that were played "back then" are no longer liked; this is about radios stations, not museums.

I don't know who decides what you said but it makes no sense if you actually remember hearing all those songs on the radio when they were current hits.

Listeners today don't want to hear every song played on the radio today. Some they never liked, some they only liked a little and got tired of, some were novelty songs that burnt out permanently back then, some just don't sound very good today as is the case with dance fads and bubblegum music... and some made the charts for the "wrong reasons" and were stiffs all along.

Listeners want to hear songs that they identify with. Minor hits and throwaway songs are not possessed of such memories.

There are SO many good top 40 songs that are ignored by oldies stations but I guess I'm weird for liking actual variety and having good forgotten memories brought back by songs I haven't heard since then.

Those songs are not ignored. Listeners have been consulted in a highly accurate process, and they have "told" the station which songs they want to hear and which the don't want to hear. Stations in bigger markets may test their library and a variety of songs not currently played several times a year at a cost of as much as $50,000 each time. Over the years, all the songs you don't hear have been tested and discarded.

Again, if you're a true oldies fan and remember all the good songs of your past, you should want to hear as much as possible from those days and not the same worn out hits you get tired of after a while.

Average listeners in PPM markets use 6 stations in a week... so there really is a huge amount of sharing between stations. When a listener goes to a classic hits station, they go to hear their favorite songs, not a bunch of OK but not great songs. Playing too deep a list always results in less listening.

There's a station in our market WDUV 'The Dove' that plays the more soft pop hits from the 60s through the 90s and they've always been at the top of the ratings most of the time and I think it's because you can listen to that station for days and never hear the same song twice.

And the station averages around 14th in 25-54 listening, and about 15th in market billing. That's a good use for a less than full market signal, and they surely make money, but it is not a good example of how a 25-54 targeted classic hits station could work; most of the WDUV listenership is over 65 and they only exist due to the high concentration of geezer-demo folks in the market.

Maybe it's me but I can't grasp the concept of wanting to hear the same songs over and over and over again.

That's the whole reason for Top 40... play 30 to 40 songs, and no others, because people want to hear their favorites over and over again. Before market fragmentation, Top 40 could account for half the listening in some markets... a lot of people wanted to hear the same songs over and over and over.

I don't know who dictates that we want to hear lack of variety because it seems to go against human nature.

Variety really means "I want to hear lots of the songs I like and none of the ones I don't like." The stations that get the highest variety attributes in research are CHR stations that may have less than 120 songs in regular rotation between currents and recurrents. The stations that consistently get low variety "credit" with listeners are those that play too many songs... because a deep library means playing lots of songs that don't meet the "songs I like" criteria as often.

 

[davideduardo]

Listeners today don't want to hear every song played on the radio today.

That should read "Listeners today don't want to hear every song played on the radio yesterday."

 

[davideduardo]

In general, they prescribe what we're supposed to want and if that can be pushed on the public enough, they have no choice but to subscribe to it.

Here is a little illustrated article about how stations test music...

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/research_AMT.htm

Replication studies show the results to be accurate within a couple of percent, which is far more accurate than needed for the purpose.

 

[gar hi]

Listeners today don't want to hear every song played on the radio today. Some they never liked, some they only liked a little and got tired of, some were novelty songs that burnt out permanently back then, some just don't sound very good today as is the case with dance fads and bubblegum music... and some made the charts for the "wrong reasons" and were stiffs all along.

Listeners want to hear songs that they identify with. Minor hits and throwaway songs are not possessed of such memories.

I completely see the point about hearing songs we want to identify with but so many of the countless old songs that are never played were top 10 and even #1 hits by major artists and the only time you ever get to hear them is when the stations do special programming like those 'A to Z weekends' and I know I'm not alone in thinking how good it is to hear those forgotten songs and wondering why they don't normally play them.

Wanting to identify with familiar songs is one thing but how many times do you want to hear such worn out songs like 'I Will Survive'? :

If hearing the same overplayed songs constantly is what people really want, then it says a lot about people today, that they settle for mediocrity.

And that's quite evident in other areas too. Look at all those ridiculous 'reality' shows that are so popular now. Look at the kind of politicians we settle for in both political parties that give us the same old stuff all the time. Says a lot about the mindset of the people.

 

[cyberdad]

Maybe it's me but I can't grasp the concept of wanting to hear the same songs over and over and over again.

That's the whole reason for Top 40... play 30 to 40 songs, and no others, because people want to hear their favorites over and over again. Before market fragmentation, Top 40 could account for half the listening in some markets... a lot of people wanted to hear the same songs over and over and over.

[/quote]

I stand to be corrected, but wasn't this Todd Storz' "great epiphany" that led to the launch of top 40 radio? He was delivering beer for his family's brewery to bars in the Omaha area, and noted that he was hearing the same songs over and over on jukeboxes?

Hey....Nobody likes vintage music better than me. Top 40 oldies, classic rock, pop standards, you name it. I also like certain types of jazz, classical, beautiful music, folk, to mention just a few. Yeah, for my own personal taste it'd be great to have all this stuff readily available on commercial radio. But I know my personal taste is not typical....not to mention the fact that I'm not in the demo that advertisers and agencies are buying.

As I've posted in other threads, this doesn't bother me at all because the stuff I like is more readily available than ever before via web streaming, iPad, iPhone, etc. And it all sounds better than it did coming out of a tinny "lo-fi" AM radio in the first place.

As my wife's mom used to say...."Good Old Days? I got news for you....they weren't always that great!" Sure there's stuff we miss and remember fondly. But the availability and variety of musical entertainment....in crystal clear sound...has NEVER been better!

 

[davideduardo]

I stand to be corrected, but wasn't this Todd Storz' "great epiphany" that led to the launch of top 40 radio? He was delivering beer for his family's brewery to bars in the Omaha area, and noted that he was hearing the same songs over and over on jukeboxes?

There are a number of versions of the same sort of story...

Here's audio from one of the Storz team from "back in the day"...

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/KOWH_Birth_of_Top-40.htm

... scroll down to the audio portion.