Does anyone remember getting KXOK in the twin cities when KDWB went off the air? or Vice Versa? ???
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KXOK VS KDWB 1960'S
- Thread starter JohnnyOhJohnny
- Start date
Nope.....
When I started going to the Twin Cities on a regular basis for business in the 80s, KDWB was an oldies station with a lousy nighttime signal. I don't remember offhand if the St. Louis station had switched calls by then or not, but when KDWB was off....or more correctly went silent...CKRC from Winnipeg was normally top dog. Of course, CKRC has also been silent itself for at least a dozen years or so.
When I was in College in southeast Iowa in the late 60s, KXOK was a rather popular daytime listen, but disappeared completely when they went to their nighttime pattern. I mention this because the school was located on a direct line between St. Louis and St. Paul. (And indeed is now on the "Avenue of the Saints" highway).
When I started going to the Twin Cities on a regular basis for business in the 80s, KDWB was an oldies station with a lousy nighttime signal. I don't remember offhand if the St. Louis station had switched calls by then or not, but when KDWB was off....or more correctly went silent...CKRC from Winnipeg was normally top dog. Of course, CKRC has also been silent itself for at least a dozen years or so.
When I was in College in southeast Iowa in the late 60s, KXOK was a rather popular daytime listen, but disappeared completely when they went to their nighttime pattern. I mention this because the school was located on a direct line between St. Louis and St. Paul. (And indeed is now on the "Avenue of the Saints" highway).
I stayed at the Avenue of the Saints motel in Donellson IA (2008?). Small town, quiet, good AM spot to DX because of lack of external noise.
Cool town- pop. 1000 or so w/ a 9H golf course-18H w/ cart $15. 12 oz rib eye, salad, potato 6.95, and stock car racing on Sat nites. But a good spot to explore nearby Ft. Madison, Keokuk, Nauvoo and other places.
So I'm off topic-the place was really nice, clean, and $30 or so. And the ground conductivity was something else as the room backed up to a cornfield.
Cool town- pop. 1000 or so w/ a 9H golf course-18H w/ cart $15. 12 oz rib eye, salad, potato 6.95, and stock car racing on Sat nites. But a good spot to explore nearby Ft. Madison, Keokuk, Nauvoo and other places.
So I'm off topic-the place was really nice, clean, and $30 or so. And the ground conductivity was something else as the room backed up to a cornfield.
Ahh....Donellson, IA....
About 15 miles from where I went to school. Once went out with a girl from there.
But my favorite memory was being in my roommate's car and getting stopped by the local cop (apparently a close relative of Barney Fife) after a standard Friday night beer drinking episode. While my roomate was busy successfully talking his way out of a ticket, three of us were standing behind the 1959 Ford squad car (this was now 1969). After we discretely finished relieving ourselves behind the rear bumper, we noticed that most of the lights etc. on the car were simply glued onto the vehicle. Not hooked up to anything! Bogus...purely for effect!
There's more to the story, but far be it from me to veer off topic.
About 15 miles from where I went to school. Once went out with a girl from there.
But my favorite memory was being in my roommate's car and getting stopped by the local cop (apparently a close relative of Barney Fife) after a standard Friday night beer drinking episode. While my roomate was busy successfully talking his way out of a ticket, three of us were standing behind the 1959 Ford squad car (this was now 1969). After we discretely finished relieving ourselves behind the rear bumper, we noticed that most of the lights etc. on the car were simply glued onto the vehicle. Not hooked up to anything! Bogus...purely for effect!
There's more to the story, but far be it from me to veer off topic.
Speaking of KXOK, I used to be able to hear it in the Northern Chicago suburbs sometimes during the day in the 60s. If I positioned the radio one way I heard KXOK, if I moved it the other way CFCO.
Anyway KXOK was a great Top 40 station back then. At night their directional pattern made it impossible for me to hear around Chicago, but it came in
like a local in New Orleans when I visited family there.
Anyway KXOK was a great Top 40 station back then. At night their directional pattern made it impossible for me to hear around Chicago, but it came in
like a local in New Orleans when I visited family there.
When KDWB (or whatever the call letters are on 630 this week), and apparently CKRC, went silent or became daytime only, it allowed CFCO Chatham, ON to upgrade to 6 kW night using five of their existing towers. The pattern maximum to the NW is equivalent to about 30 kW based on Class B minimum efficiency. If they had built a new antenna array, they might have been able to run even more power, but you may notice that CFCO comes in a good percentage of the time at night now.
Schroedingers Cat said:
CFCO comes into the northern burbs of Chicago during the day. A nice haul from Chatham, Ontario.
From the Laurelton Queens (NYC) area, it was WPRO Providence in the day with a little WEJL Scranton if you nulled WPRO and caught a break from the searing violins of WVNJ 620.
But on those swell overnights when a lot of stations were off dial-wide, KXOK could be pretty listenable. Never did log KDWB, though.
But on those swell overnights when a lot of stations were off dial-wide, KXOK could be pretty listenable. Never did log KDWB, though.
KDWB's 500-watt nighttime pattern was very directional and narrow to the west. I never heard it here in the Chicago area....or in Iowa. In fact, during the late '80s, when I'd visit a customer of mine in Lakeville, MN....about 20 miles south of downtown Minneapolis...I'd get splatter in the car radio from WOI in Ames, IA. Even at 5kw, the daytime signal was also directional and not that great. The fact that the ground conductivity immediately around the Twin Cities is generally pretty lousy didn't help matters.
As for CFCO, when I was in Northern Minnesota and in Winnipeg a couple of months ago, it was roaring in each night. I was a little surprised, but the equivalent of 30kw aimed at me would certainly explain things!
As for CFCO, when I was in Northern Minnesota and in Winnipeg a couple of months ago, it was roaring in each night. I was a little surprised, but the equivalent of 30kw aimed at me would certainly explain things!
radioman148 said:
As you know, I'm about 25-30 miles west of you, and I've never heard them during the day except once in a while right after sunrise. If anything, during the day here, I'll sometimes get snatches of KJSL....but even that's less frequent now that was the case as KXOK.
I've driven by CFCO's array many times. It's clearly visible about a mile or two north of the 401 freeway which connects Detroit-Windsor with Toronto. Tall towers planted in level farm country ground with what I'd presume to be excellent conductivity. No buildings, development, or anything similar nearby to obstruct or degrade the signal.
Steve Green NEPA said:
I'm impressed. I never knew KXOK could make it to NYC.
cyberdad said:
I'll have to check again soon. I know that as of a few years ago I could still hear CFCO during the day--weak but it was there.
A few years ago, for one year, CFCO had an affiliation agreement to air the Detroit Tigers PBP. With just 10 kW day, and a 6 kW night signal pattern that exceeds the day signal in many parts of Metro Detroit, the signal far exceeded the signal of originating station 50 kW WXYT in many areas. I don't know if it was the embarassment, the competition, or both, but the agreement ended after one year. Since WXYT simulcasted and then exclusively moved to FM 97.1, the point is moot. I believe they still simulcast Detroit Tiger Baseball on 1270.
CFCO has a great signal. The day pattern has a huge major lobe to the west. Parallelogram patterns (this pattern uses a fifth tower in addtion) can be inflexible, though, and a null which appears to be unneccessary reduces radiation to the NW. The night pattern however is at maximum in this direction. When I was last near Chicago before IBOC hiss from WTMJ, I could hear CFCO day and night by just tuning in a car radio near Old Orchard.
CFCO has a great signal. The day pattern has a huge major lobe to the west. Parallelogram patterns (this pattern uses a fifth tower in addtion) can be inflexible, though, and a null which appears to be unneccessary reduces radiation to the NW. The night pattern however is at maximum in this direction. When I was last near Chicago before IBOC hiss from WTMJ, I could hear CFCO day and night by just tuning in a car radio near Old Orchard.
CFCO used to put a respectable nighttime signal into the Detroit area even back when they were 1kw. Definitely not competitive with the local signals, but still listenable.
I don't doubt at all that CFCO is doable daytime in the Chicago area. I've just never been able to snag it myself. I may be just a little too far west, but I'll probably give it another try.
I don't doubt at all that CFCO is doable daytime in the Chicago area. I've just never been able to snag it myself. I may be just a little too far west, but I'll probably give it another try.
Interesting stuff, Scott. And impressive coverage. Assuming CFCO is audible daytime in the Chicago area, then they'd be the only Detroit area signal audible here other than WJR. (Although CKLW might also make that list for someone with a really good radio).
Anyway....a quickie question for you as the "tower guy"....
In my post the other day, I mentioned that I've driven by their array many times and that the CFCO sticks are clearly visible from the 401 freeway....a couple of miles away. As I said, the towers are tall. Then after my post, I was actually thinking of posting again specifically to ask you if you knew anything about these....are they quarter wave, half wave or whatever. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about a.m. radio tower heights and the physics involved.
Anyway....a quickie question for you as the "tower guy"....
In my post the other day, I mentioned that I've driven by their array many times and that the CFCO sticks are clearly visible from the 401 freeway....a couple of miles away. As I said, the towers are tall. Then after my post, I was actually thinking of posting again specifically to ask you if you knew anything about these....are they quarter wave, half wave or whatever. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about a.m. radio tower heights and the physics involved.
If the data reported to the FCC is accurate (and that's not always a given with Canadian stations), CFCO's towers aren't especially high - four of them are 76 degrees and a fifth is 85 degrees, just short of a quarter-wavelength.
But that's hardly unusual for a station at 630 on the dial, where a full wavelength is about 475 meters. A quarter-wave tower on 630 would be just under 400 feet tall.
But that's hardly unusual for a station at 630 on the dial, where a full wavelength is about 475 meters. A quarter-wave tower on 630 would be just under 400 feet tall.
Before WBBM was IBOC, I heard WSGW 790 Saginaw in the daytime near Union Grove, WI. And people along Lake Shore Drive have reported places where WBBM was nulled and WSGW reinforced by tall buildings, at least before IBOC. It seems like CHYR 710 could have been heard before they moved to FM. Someone here reported that WCAR 1130 was heard days in Chicago before WISN moved to 1130. I seem to remember CKLW 800 coming in a little in the daytime. WKAR 870 East Lansing also came in near Chicago.
Schroedingers Cat said:
You are right about WCAR. I used to hear it in the Chicago area during the day before WISN moved to 1130. Also heard CKLW during the day & still hear East Lansing's 870 in the daytime.
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