• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

KXYZ - KTRH transmitter site?

H

hrhwebmaster

In 1930, KTRH's first transmitter site was at Deepwater on the La Porte-Houston highway. In 1936, KPRC moved to that site from Sugar Land and the two shared a building and antenna.

Deepwater was a small town which has since been absorbed by Pasadena. Just south of 225, between Preston and the Beltway, is Deepwater Terrace subdivision, with a Deepwater Park, Deepwater Elementary and Jr. Hi. Further north, somewhere near the Ship Channel is an HL&P (Reliant) plant called Deepwater. The highway in those days may have been closer to the Ship Channel than the current 225.

Just east of Preston on 225, of course, is the current KXYZ plant.

1) Does anyone know if the current KXYZ plant is on the former KTRH/KPRC site?

2) Is that possible? If a radio station moves its transmitter, is the old tower and/or ground system usable by another station?

The original installation in 1930 was a flattop with no ground system. The 1936 installaton had 13.5 miles of copper wire buried and a single 375' antenna.<P ID="signature">______________
'But have you ever heard music on a crystal set? That's the sweetest music ever broadcast.' Alfred P. Daniel, Houston radio pioneer, in an interview in 1948.</P>
 
> In 1930, KTRH's first transmitter site was at Deepwater on
> the La Porte-Houston highway. In 1936, KPRC moved to that
> site from Sugar Land and the two shared a building and
> antenna.
>
> Deepwater was a small town which has since been absorbed by
> Pasadena. Just south of 225, between Preston and the
> Beltway, is Deepwater Terrace subdivision, with a Deepwater
> Park, Deepwater Elementary and Jr. Hi. Further north,
> somewhere near the Ship Channel is an HL&P (Reliant) plant
> called Deepwater. The highway in those days may have been
> closer to the Ship Channel than the current 225.
>
> Just east of Preston on 225, of course, is the current KXYZ
> plant.
>
> 1) Does anyone know if the current KXYZ plant is on the
> former KTRH/KPRC site?
>
> 2) Is that possible? If a radio station moves its
> transmitter, is the old tower and/or ground system usable by
> another station?
>
> The original installation in 1930 was a flattop with no
> ground system. The 1936 installaton had 13.5 miles of
> copper wire buried and a single 375' antenna.
>

Yes, it was. At various times, KTRH, KPRC, KXYZ and KIKK were all at that site. Obviously, only KXYZ on 1320 remains. I remember that KTRH wasn't always on 740, having moved there in the early 1940s. KXYZ might have been on 1290 prior to the massive frequency change due to the NARBA agreement in 1941 (or was it '43?).

As to using an old tower/ground system, the safe answer is-it depends. The tower may be too tall or too short for the new station, and the ground system comes into play as well.

Texas Tuner
 
> >
> > Just east of Preston on 225, of course, is the current
> KXYZ
> > plant.
> >
That should read west of Preston, not east.

>
> Yes, it was. At various times, KTRH, KPRC, KXYZ and KIKK
> were all at that site. Obviously, only KXYZ on 1320 remains.
> I remember that KTRH wasn't always on 740, having moved
> there in the early 1940s. KXYZ might have been on 1290 prior
> to the massive frequency change due to the NARBA agreement
> in 1941 (or was it '43?).
>
> As to using an old tower/ground system, the safe answer
> is-it depends. The tower may be too tall or too short for
> the new station, and the ground system comes into play as
> well.
>
> Texas Tuner
>
Wow, thanks. KTRH was on 1290 and KXYZ on 1440 prior to NARBA. Both moved up 30 kc to 1320 and 1470 (KPRC moved from 920 to 950). KTRH and KXYZ moved again to their present dial positions a year and a half later.

Do you happen to know when KTRH went to 50k? It was just 5K in 1936 with a brand new transmitter to go with a brand new antenna.

(edited to correct KXYZ frequencies before and after NARBA).
<P ID="signature">______________
'But have you ever heard music on a crystal set? That's the sweetest music ever broadcast.' Alfred P. Daniel, Houston radio pioneer, in an interview in 1948.</P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by hrhwebmaster on 04/08/06 01:42 PM.</FONT></P>
 
> >
> Wow, thanks. KTRH was on 1290 and KXYZ on 1440 prior to
> NARBA. Both moved up 30 kc to 1320 and 1470 (KPRC moved
> from 920 to 950).

I think you mean the FRC changes of about Thanksgiving, 1928. NARBA was much later (1941), and did not move many US radio staitons (I think the only one was KFMB-540 in SD to allow XEWA to be a 1-A and that was in the 60's).

> KTRH and KXYZ moved again to their
> present dial positions a year and a half later.
>
> Do you happen to know when KTRH went to 50k? It was just 5K
> in 1936 with a brand new transmitter to go with a brand new
> antenna.

I can look at my Radex collecton once back in LA. That magazine took the FRC and them, FCC data and published every month except summer from about 1926 through the 30's. Other sources are Stevenson's log and Whites, with my earliest stevenson's being form 1926 and my earliest White's being from 1927.
 
>
> 2) Is that possible? If a radio station moves its
> transmitter, is the old tower and/or ground system usable by
> another station?

In general, any AM tower can transmit any AM radio station.

Here are the limitations.

1. Many stations are directional, and the pattern of each is determined by the size, separation and location of the towers. Only rarely is one directional adaptable to another station. However, it is pretty common for a directional station to share one tower with another non directional staiton.

2. The terms of the station's licences may require different locations due to allocations issues.

3. The FCC requires minimum radiation efficiency for each class of service. A tower that is electrically a quarter-wave on 1500 will be way to short to meet efficiency requirements at lower frequencies, even with top loading, etc. But a tower used on a low frequency will be fine for a higher band station (they may reduce height or power to compensate for higher efficiency).

A ground system is just a bunch of wire burried underground, and sytems are pretty tolerant to unusual grounds, so it is mostly the tower that matters although a bad ground will reduce efficiency (using a unipole will help).

There are many cases of multiple statins on the same tower, particularly non-directional ones. In Hawaii, I think all the Honolulu staitons share towers, with 2, 3 and even 4 stations diplexed on the same tower. There are very few dipelxed directionals, with one major example being 50 kw KTNQ and the 44 kw KTKN on 1150 in LA on one 5-tower system in LA where costly property and impossible zoning made a new site impractical.
 
> > >
> > Wow, thanks. KTRH was on 1290 and KXYZ on 1440 prior to
> > NARBA. Both moved up 30 kc to 1320 and 1470 (KPRC moved
> > from 920 to 950).
>
> I think you mean the FRC changes of about Thanksgiving,
> 1928. NARBA was much later (1941), and did not move many US
> radio staitons (I think the only one was KFMB-540 in SD to
> allow XEWA to be a 1-A and that was in the 60's).
>


No. National Frequency Reallocation Day -- 11/11/28 - 600 of 630 licensed stations changed frequency and others lost their licenses completely. KPRC was on 1020 in 1927, 920 in 1930; I don't know when the change took place. KTRH was known as KUT and licensed to Austin in 1928, went silent in 1929 and moved to Houston in 1930.

NARBA, 3/29/41 - according to sources I've seen, 90% (either 862/893 or 795/883, depending on who was doing the counting) of the stations in the US changed frequency. I have copies of the front page stories in the papers locally about the moves.


> > KTRH and KXYZ moved again to their
> > present dial positions a year and a half later.
> >
> > Do you happen to know when KTRH went to 50k? It was just
> 5K
> > in 1936 with a brand new transmitter to go with a brand
> new
> > antenna.
>
> I can look at my Radex collecton once back in LA. That
> magazine took the FRC and them, FCC data and published every
> month except summer from about 1926 through the 30's. Other
> sources are Stevenson's log and Whites, with my earliest
> stevenson's being form 1926 and my earliest White's being
> from 1927.
>

I'm not even sure KTRH was 50k at the time of NARBA -- the Chronicle, which owned it, wasn't showing wattage in the listings. In later years (by ca. 1946), Chronicle listings always included the wattage since it was the only one in town at 50K.
<P ID="signature">______________
'But have you ever heard music on a crystal set? That's the sweetest music ever broadcast.' Alfred P. Daniel, Houston radio pioneer, in an interview in 1948.</P>
 
> >

>
> There are many cases of multiple statins on the same tower,
> particularly non-directional ones. In Hawaii, I think all
> the Honolulu staitons share towers, with 2, 3 and even 4
> stations diplexed on the same tower. There are very few
> dipelxed directionals, with one major example being 50 kw
> KTNQ and the 44 kw KTKN on 1150 in LA on one 5-tower system
> in LA where costly property and impossible zoning made a new
> site impractical.
>

Thanks for all the info, David. According to the local papers in '36, KTRH and KPRC were only the 2nd pair of stations in the nation to share an antenna, the first two were in MA.

So when a station vacates a site, say because of encroaching development, and no other station is going to move in, do they go in and dig up the copper wire? Just curious, not an important question :).

<P ID="signature">______________
'But have you ever heard music on a crystal set? That's the sweetest music ever broadcast.' Alfred P. Daniel, Houston radio pioneer, in an interview in 1948.</P>
 
> > > >
> > > Wow, thanks. KTRH was on 1290 and KXYZ on 1440 prior to
>
> > > NARBA. Both moved up 30 kc to 1320 and 1470 (KPRC
> moved
> > > from 920 to 950).
> >
> > I think you mean the FRC changes of about Thanksgiving,
> > 1928. NARBA was much later (1941), and did not move many
> US
> > radio staitons (I think the only one was KFMB-540 in SD to
>
> > allow XEWA to be a 1-A and that was in the 60's).
> >
>
>
> No. National Frequency Reallocation Day -- 11/11/28 - 600
> of 630 licensed stations changed frequency and others lost
> their licenses completely.

Yes, that is what I referred to as "arond Thanksgiving of 1928. The FRC came about a year earlier, and was intended to regulate the spectrum, and the first step was to clean up and organize the dial.

NARBA came in 1941, just before W.W. II, and involved mutual protection between the US, its territories, the Dominican Republic, Cuba, Haiti, The bahamas, Mexico and Canada. It resulted in only a minimal number of frequency changes.

> NARBA, 3/29/41 - according to sources I've seen, 90% (either
> 862/893 or 795/883, depending on who was doing the counting)
> of the stations in the US changed frequency.

I think that is exaggerated. What changed was a lot of the protection and power limits, but I am looking at a 1932 Radex right now and most of the major stations were already on their current frequencies then.

> I have copies
> of the front page stories in the papers locally about the
> moves.
>

I'd trust Radex and White's and the Broadcasting Yearbook over a newspaper's coverage of radio, especially in that era. I will look at the 1940 Broadcasting Yearbook on Monday and see what a sample frequency looks like, then vs. Now.

For example, on 550, of 7 stations, 6 were on the current frequency in 1932 and one no longer exists. On the other hand, of 5 stations on 1330, all still exist but none are on that frequency.
 
> Thanks for all the info, David. According to the local
> papers in '36, KTRH and KPRC were only the 2nd pair of
> stations in the nation to share an antenna, the first two
> were in MA.
>
> So when a station vacates a site, say because of encroaching
> development, and no other station is going to move in, do
> they go in and dig up the copper wire? Just curious, not an
> important question :).

I really don't know. I doubt it. In the US, the value of the copper is probably lower than the extraction cost.

However, in many places theft of ground wires is very common. In Haiti, all stations went to using galvanized fencing wire instead of copper to thwart theft.
 
> For example, on 550, of 7 stations, 6 were on the current
> frequency in 1932 and one no longer exists. On the other
> hand, of 5 stations on 1330, all still exist but none are on
> that frequency.

I believe under the NARBA plan, U.S. stations on 550 to 720 stayed put. Off the top of my head I think 730-780 moved up 10 kHz, stations roughly 800-900 range moved up 20 kHz, roughly 900-1000 moved up 30 kHz, and above 1000 mostly 40 khz, with a number of exceptions moving 30 kHz. This of course opened up frequencies for new allocations or drop-ins. The band was also officially expanded to 1600 kHz at that time (although experimental stations had been operating in the 1510-1600 range, such as NYC's W2XR, which became WQXR, now WQEW.)

I'd have to do a bit of digging for the exact frequency ranges involved, but pretty much every station 730 and above moved up the dial.
 
> > For example, on 550, of 7 stations, 6 were on the current
> > frequency in 1932 and one no longer exists. On the other
> > hand, of 5 stations on 1330, all still exist but none are
> on
> > that frequency.
>
> I believe under the NARBA plan, U.S. stations on 550 to 720
> stayed put. Off the top of my head I think 730-780 moved up
> 10 kHz, stations roughly 800-900 range moved up 20 kHz,
> roughly 900-1000 moved up 30 kHz, and above 1000 mostly 40
> khz, with a number of exceptions moving 30 kHz. This of
> course opened up frequencies for new allocations or
> drop-ins. The band was also officially expanded to 1600 kHz
> at that time (although experimental stations had been
> operating in the 1510-1600 range, such as NYC's W2XR, which
> became WQXR, now WQEW.)
>
> I'd have to do a bit of digging for the exact frequency
> ranges involved, but pretty much every station 730 and above
> moved up the dial.

I am seeing that in the comparisons between a 1942 Yearbook and a |940 one. However, most of th eupper band moves seem to be to create today's graveyard channels, the old Class IV staitons. In the 30's, there were a lot of 50 watters and 100 watters, and the change moved most to 250 watts or killed them off.

Still, I see plenty of staitons that stayed the same on the upper part of the band.

Overally, 1941 brough far less change than 1928 did.
 
>
> No. National Frequency Reallocation Day -- 11/11/28 - 600
> of 630 licensed stations changed frequency and others lost
> their licenses completely. KPRC was on 1020 in 1927, 920 in
> 1930; I don't know when the change took place. KTRH was
> known as KUT and licensed to Austin in 1928, went silent in
> 1929 and moved to Houston in 1930.
>
> NARBA, 3/29/41 - according to sources I've seen, 90% (either
> 862/893 or 795/883, depending on who was doing the counting)
> of the stations in the US changed frequency. I have copies
> of the front page stories in the papers locally about the
> moves.

Your data is a lot closer to reality than my recollections. I appologize for my error. While the newpaper numbers were off (I am guessing they counted non-operative or CP stations, too) there was in fact a wholesale change of nearly all stations above the lower part of the band... as much as 80%, I think... based on comparing a 1940 and 1942 Yearbook (I do not have a 1941, unformtunately).

So, really, we had the Thanksgiving 1928 mass change (I think nearly 100% of stations moved) and the 1941 change which did it all over again. And then we have the 1946 move of all FMs to the "new" band from 46 mHz, too. Pretty wild... and now we have HDTV!
 
> >
> > No. National Frequency Reallocation Day -- 11/11/28 - 600
>
> > of 630 licensed stations changed frequency and others lost
>
> > their licenses completely. KPRC was on 1020 in 1927, 920
> in
> > 1930; I don't know when the change took place. KTRH was
> > known as KUT and licensed to Austin in 1928, went silent
> in
> > 1929 and moved to Houston in 1930.
> >
> > NARBA, 3/29/41 - according to sources I've seen, 90%
> (either
> > 862/893 or 795/883, depending on who was doing the
> counting)
> > of the stations in the US changed frequency. I have
> copies
> > of the front page stories in the papers locally about the
> > moves.
>
> Your data is a lot closer to reality than my recollections.
> I appologize for my error. While the newpaper numbers were
> off (I am guessing they counted non-operative or CP
> stations, too) there was in fact a wholesale change of
> nearly all stations above the lower part of the band... as
> much as 80%, I think... based on comparing a 1940 and 1942
> Yearbook (I do not have a 1941, unformtunately).
>
> So, really, we had the Thanksgiving 1928 mass change (I
> think nearly 100% of stations moved) and the 1941 change
> which did it all over again. And then we have the 1946 move
> of all FMs to the "new" band from 46 mHz, too. Pretty
> wild... and now we have HDTV!
>
Understand your reluctance to believe local newspaper stories but I was only relying on them with regard to the local moves. The Gov of Texas declared 3/29/41 'Radio Movin' Day' statewide but the Houston papers didn't even mention the move of KLUF, Galveston, which probably moved to 1400 that day.

I was relying on Jeff Miller's history resources for the numbers:

http://members.aol.com/jeff560/chrono1.html

You'll have to scroll down to the relevant dates. Somewhere I've found a really good article on the significance of NFRD but seem to have lost the bookmark. There's an article in Wikipedia on NARBA but I haven't read it.<P ID="signature">______________
'But have you ever heard music on a crystal set? That's the sweetest music ever broadcast.' Alfred P. Daniel, Houston radio pioneer, in an interview in 1948.</P>
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom