KYW - Newsradio - 94.1 (or 98.1)

[radiophile]

Now that WTOP is going FM in DC, how long before Infinity takes KYW, with poor coverage to the northeast, to the FM dial in place of either Free FM (initial Roth reviews aren't good) or WOGL (demos are still mostly 55+)?

 

[musicrrrr]

> Now that WTOP is going FM in DC, how long before Infinity
> takes KYW, with poor coverage to the northeast, to the FM
> dial in place of either Free FM (initial Roth reviews aren't
> good) or WOGL (demos are still mostly 55+)?
>
Don't think it's gonna happen...KYW has a massive signal. In Canton, Ohio, before their daytimer 1060 signs off the air at sunset, KYW bleeds over their signal, rendering it unlistenable for the last 5 or 10 minutes of their broadcast day.

KYW is already at the top. When most people think AM, there is only KYW. It wouldn't make sense to move the #1 station in the entire city to an FM frequency, rendering whichever format is on that frequency obsolete.

If Infinity put KYW on FM, which format would replace it on 1060? PLEASE do not open the real oldies/standards "can of worms" here again. We can't take it for at least a month or two.

You have to consider that the owners of KYW have an AM winner. And formats are usually not interchangeable between the AM/FM bands...yes, KYW would win on FM, but you aren't going to put any of the current Philly FM formats on 1060.

I think Philly already has all potentially profitable AM formats.

NEWS- 1060
TALK- 1210, 990
SPORTS- 610, 950
Spanish Language- 1310, 1360, 1680
Religion- 560
Real Oldies/ Standards- OBSOLETE

 

[bierkenstock]

KYW FM AND AM

WTOP has been operating on two FM stations and two AM stations for several years.

KYW has huge holes in the signal: In the MSA, almost all of Bucks County. In the TSA, forget it.

Whether you can get KYW for a half hour before sunset in Ohio is not a factor.

FM is where the listeners are, especially the younger listeners KYW needs to reach to get ad revenue. Overall, AM's share of audience is less than 20% - even less in the money demos. Among post-boomers, AM might as well not exist.

Number One station? All you see are 12+ averages. Number One in the money demos? Number one in revenue? And even their 12+ numbers have been eroding.

Why replace the format on 1060 with anything? Simulcast. Again, that's what WTOP has been doing.

94.1? Get real. They just flipped 94.1 to FM Talk.

 

[JerseyShor]

> Don't think it's gonna happen...KYW has a massive signal.
> In Canton, Ohio, before their daytimer 1060 signs off the
> air at sunset, KYW bleeds over their signal, rendering it
> unlistenable for the last 5 or 10 minutes of their broadcast
> day.

They may serve Ohio just fine, heck they're one of the strongest AM stations on the dial here in Ocean County NJ, but thier signal is a disgrace in Eastern Bucks County and Mercer County.

 

[Bill_W]

Re: KYW FM AND AM

> WTOP has been operating on two FM stations and two AM
> stations for several years.
>
> KYW has huge holes in the signal: In the MSA, almost all of
> Bucks County. In the TSA, forget it.
>
> Whether you can get KYW for a half hour before sunset in
> Ohio is not a factor.
>
> FM is where the listeners are, especially the younger
> listeners KYW needs to reach to get ad revenue. Overall,
> AM's share of audience is less than 20% - even less in the
> money demos. Among post-boomers, AM might as well not
> exist.
>
> Number One station? All you see are 12+ averages. Number
> One in the money demos? Number one in revenue? And even
> their 12+ numbers have been eroding.
>
> Why replace the format on 1060 with anything? Simulcast.
> Again, that's what WTOP has been doing.
>
> 94.1? Get real. They just flipped 94.1 to FM Talk.
>
Back when CBS had to get rid of WMMR because of buying Infinity, could have CBS gone to the FCC and said that they were going to simulcast KYW on the WMMR signal instead of selling the station? Wouldn't that get them under the % that they had to get under?
Why not simulcast to a Trenton AM station that covers Bucks and Mercer Counties well?

 

[eGillCVI]

I would love to hear KYW on the FM dial. Heck, even that time they switched over to 1210 AM (while 1060 was undergoing maintenance) was was a massive improvement.

That said, it's an awfully big gamble. Whenever a company moves a station from one frequency to another (let alone from one band to another), a lot of the chips have to be ready to fall into the right places. Who's to say all those chips will fall correctly? It's too big a chance, IMHO.

As for the notion that KYW's ratings are bad, I don't know where that idea is coming from. According to every modern-day non-12+ thing I've seen, they do perfectly fine in the money demos.

However, it may not even be financially feasible to move the station: When PPM's revolutionize Philly's ratings and advertisers get a load of how people are really using KYW, those chips I mentioned just may slide off the table and all over Independence Mall.


> Now that WTOP is going FM in DC, how long before Infinity
> takes KYW, with poor coverage to the northeast, to the FM
> dial in place of either Free FM (initial Roth reviews aren't
> good) or WOGL (demos are still mostly 55+)?
>

 

[icybluelake]

Re: KYW FM AND AM

> >
> > Why replace the format on 1060 with anything? Simulcast.
>
> > Again, that's what WTOP has been doing.

> Why not simulcast to a Trenton AM station that covers Bucks
> and Mercer Counties well?
>
WTOP not only simulcast, but their FM simulcasts were kind of a "patchwork" strategy to take smaller signals with partial coverage of the DC area at best. It wouldn't have made ANY sense to move their signal to FM altogether.

But I always wondered if WTOP was trying to smooth out holes in the 1500 signal (which are most obvious to the west/NW of DC, I think), or whether the idea was to pull in listeners who might only tend to listen on FM, or who might appreciate listening to sports on FM. I was trying to think of any other precedents for all-news formats practically anywhere, but maybe my memory doesn't go back far enough. I am pretty sure there were others in the not-too-distant past. WCAU-FM was really a news/talk format, right?

Simulcasting on a Trenton/Bucks/Mercer signal wouldn't seem to be a bad idea to fill those holes. On the other hand, I think a lot of people in Mercer will tend to tune into NY stations like WCBS or 1010 WINS, right?

 

[musicrrrr]

Re: KYW FM AND AM

You raise some good points, but I still maintain that News Radio ain't going to FM in Philly.

>Whether you can get KYW for a half hour before sunset in Ohio is not a factor.

True...I only posted that because I thought it was interesting...but you're right, it is not a factor.

>FM is where the listeners are, especially the younger listeners KYW needs to reach to get ad revenue. Overall, AM's share of audience is less than 20% - even less in the money demos. Among post-boomers, AM might as well not exist.

That argument could go either way...AM is far from dead yet...at least in the News/Talk arena. FM may indeed be where most of the listenership is, but young or old...if an individual is looking for news exclusively, 1060 is the only game in town. In the case of KYW, I don't think the "band" is as much of a factor for obtaining younger listeners as is a perceived lack of interest in newsradio on the part of younger listeners.

>Number One station? All you see are 12+ averages. Number One in the money demos? Number one in revenue? And even their 12+ numbers have been eroding.

I don't know about their 12 plus numbers...how long have they been eroding? Are you suggesting that switching to FM would increase money demos? On the surface it makes sense, but I think in the case of KYW, other factors are at play.

Overall, isn't it more expensive to run an FM...especially with the budget that KYW must have? Higher rates for FM advertising may offset these costs, but would KYW maintain these sponsors with the same format at a higher rate, regardless of the "band?"

As far as eroding 12 plus numbers, could the lower numbers be because of the higher numbers for 1210 and 990? If so, a switch to FM would unlikely increase 12 plus numbers.

>Why replace the format on 1060 with anything? Simulcast. Again, that's what WTOP has been doing.

AM/FM simulcasting is a thing of the past...usually...unless of course there is no viable format on the AM side. I don't know anything about WTOP, but as far as simulcasting KYW on AM/FM, I equate that with Infinity throwing away an entire radio station.

Good discussion.

 

[icybluelake]

WTOP

Forget everything I just wrote! (I can just feel the egg on my face!)

From WTOP's web site:

Washington, D.C. - In a series of moves dramatically altering the radio dial in Washington, Bonneville International Corporation has announced that WTOP Radio, Washington's 24-hour all news station is moving to 103.5 FM today to expand its reach and penetration. Additionally, WTOP will partner with The Washington Post to form a new radio station broadcasting on the 1500 AM and 107.7 FM frequencies in late March.
"At 103.5 on the FM dial, listeners will get better reception," said Joel Oxley, Bonneville's senior vice president. "They will hear WTOP in their homes and offices throughout the region. It will also strengthen the signal in cars driving in the downtown area."
Classical music station WGMS will move to 104.1 and 103.9 FM replacing modern rock station Z104.

WGMS' move to 104.1/103.9 FM will take place immediately. Until the launch of Washington Post Radio in late March, WTOP will be simulcast on 103.5 FM and 1500 AM and 107.7 FM.
"These changes will help us meet the growing needs of the Washington community for news, sports, information, music and emergency services," said Bruce Reese, president and CEO of Bonneville.
Bonneville will own and operate both WTOP and Washington Post Radio. Washington Post Radio's programming will include in-depth local, national and international news and commentary provided by Washington Post reporters, editors, and columnists as well as news makers and other local media personalities.
"Our venture with The Washington Post will add a new dimension to radio in Washington," Reese said. "It will be smart, savvy, provocative and thoughtful. News hungry Washington is the best town for this new format."
In addition, Bonneville is launching two new commercial-free classical stations that will broadcast digitally using HD Radio technology. One station will play traditional classical music like that played on WGMS, but will feature more in-depth classical music choices.
The other will be an on-air broadcast of Bonneville's web-based opera and choral music station, Viva La Voce.
Both high definition channels are up now and will expand in the next few months.
Listeners need an HD Radio to listen to these additional commercial-free radio stations. For more information on HD Radio, click here.

 

[Slinky]

> If Infinity put KYW on FM, which format would replace it on
> 1060? PLEASE do not open the real oldies/standards "can of
> worms" here again. We can't take it for at least a month or
> two.
>
> You have to consider that the owners of KYW have an AM
> winner. And formats are usually not interchangeable between
> the AM/FM bands...yes, KYW would win on FM, but you aren't
> going to put any of the current Philly FM formats on 1060.

That's basically the problem Bonneville will be facing in DC if their "Washington Post Radio" format doesn't work on 1500. And I'd agree that it's the key. Also, at this point, 98.1 and 94.1 are still profitable, and if they weren't, there are other obvious music format holes they could fill.

In DC Bonneville had two underperforming FM stations and no obvious formats to flip to. They had nothing to lose, and they have a new format that they think will do well on AM, so all the flips make sense. Not to mention that WTOP's signal deficiencies are much worse than KYW's. The situation is just very different. DC is essentially FM-only at this point, while in Philadelphia, I think AM will hold out till the bitter end. <P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by Slinky on 01/05/06 06:30 AM.</FONT></P>

 

[eGillCVI]

> > ...at this
> point, 98.1 and 94.1 are still profitable, and if they
> weren't, there are other obvious music format holes they
> could fill.

Just curious. Which formats are the obvious holes that might work better in Philly than News? (And if you say Alternative or Dance, I'm going to shoot someone. LOL.)

 

[epmark]

Re: WTOP / KYW

A lot of WTOP's strategy is to penetrate office buildings with the
FM signal (which AM can't reach). How much of an audience would KYW
gain from office reception?

> Forget everything I just wrote! (I can just feel the egg on
> my face!)
>
> From WTOP's web site:
>
> Washington, D.C. - In a series of moves dramatically
> altering the radio dial in Washington, Bonneville
> International Corporation has announced that WTOP Radio,
> Washington's 24-hour all news station is moving to 103.5 FM
> today to expand its reach and penetration. Additionally,
> WTOP will partner with The Washington Post to form a new
> radio station broadcasting on the 1500 AM and 107.7 FM
> frequencies in late March.
> "At 103.5 on the FM dial, listeners will get better
> reception," said Joel Oxley, Bonneville's senior vice
> president. "They will hear WTOP in their homes and offices
> throughout the region. It will also strengthen the signal in
> cars driving in the downtown area."
> Classical music station WGMS will move to 104.1 and 103.9 FM
> replacing modern rock station Z104.
>
> WGMS' move to 104.1/103.9 FM will take place immediately.
> Until the launch of Washington Post Radio in late March,
> WTOP will be simulcast on 103.5 FM and 1500 AM and 107.7 FM.
>
> "These changes will help us meet the growing needs of the
> Washington community for news, sports, information, music
> and emergency services," said Bruce Reese, president and CEO
> of Bonneville.
> Bonneville will own and operate both WTOP and Washington
> Post Radio. Washington Post Radio's programming will include
> in-depth local, national and international news and
> commentary provided by Washington Post reporters, editors,
> and columnists as well as news makers and other local media
> personalities.
> "Our venture with The Washington Post will add a new
> dimension to radio in Washington," Reese said. "It will be
> smart, savvy, provocative and thoughtful. News hungry
> Washington is the best town for this new format."
> In addition, Bonneville is launching two new commercial-free
> classical stations that will broadcast digitally using HD
> Radio technology. One station will play traditional
> classical music like that played on WGMS, but will feature
> more in-depth classical music choices.
> The other will be an on-air broadcast of Bonneville's
> web-based opera and choral music station, Viva La Voce.
> Both high definition channels are up now and will expand in
> the next few months.
> Listeners need an HD Radio to listen to these additional
> commercial-free radio stations. For more information on HD
> Radio, click here.
>

 

[Jim_Hicks]

The fact that Bonneville has a format in mind at the offset is the big difference here. It would seem to me that 1500 will be the longer form news, like WCBS-AM in NYC. That was tried on 1210 here and it really did not work, although personnally I chose WCAU over KYW while that option was available. I see the DC situation and the Philly scene as two entirely different animals.

> > If Infinity put KYW on FM, which format would replace it
> on
> > 1060? PLEASE do not open the real oldies/standards "can
> of
> > worms" here again. We can't take it for at least a month
> or
> > two.
> >
> > You have to consider that the owners of KYW have an AM
> > winner. And formats are usually not interchangeable
> between
> > the AM/FM bands...yes, KYW would win on FM, but you aren't
>
> > going to put any of the current Philly FM formats on 1060.
>
>
> That's basically the problem Bonneville will be facing in DC
> if their "Washington Post Radio" format doesn't work on
> 1500. And I'd agree that it's the key. Also, at this
> point, 98.1 and 94.1 are still profitable, and if they
> weren't, there are other obvious music format holes they
> could fill.
>
> In DC Bonneville had two underperforming FM stations and no
> obvious formats to flip to. They had nothing to lose, and
> they have a new format that they think will do well on AM,
> so all the flips make sense. Not to mention that WTOP's
> signal deficiencies are much worse than KYW's. The
> situation is just very different. DC is essentially FM-only
> at this point, while in Philadelphia, I think AM will hold
> out till the bitter end.
>

 

[bierkenstock]

Broader question: Is all news dead?

The signs are not encouraging. The format never caught on. Only a relative handful of stations are all-news.
Syndication opened up the talk format and caused literally hundreds of stations to flip. But attempts to broaden the appeal of the all-news format through syndication efforts like NIS and AP All News Radio fell flat.
The format is expensive. Talk is cheaper and generally gets better numbers.
Stations can get better audience and sales numbers and make more money with a talk format.
KYW runs mostly on inertia and it has been losing steam over the years.
CBS Radio has been gradually putting non-news programming into various of their "all" news stations.
This includes:
Evening and overnight talk.
Play by play sports.
Weekday "magazine" type programming (heavy on interviews and features).
Brokered weekend programming.
Don't be surprised if KYW becomes all news some of the time.

 

[BlueMartyr]

>
> Just curious. Which formats are the obvious holes that
> might work better in Philly than News? (And if you say
> Alternative or Dance, I'm going to shoot someone. LOL.)
>

Modern rock? :-D











*ducks from the swinging fist*
<P ID="signature">______________
"Growing old, and living for the moment."
~Rufio</P>

 

[ixnay]

What's now on 1500 am? And when/how'd they flip?

Hmmmmmmm?????

ixnay

 

[bierkenstock]

Asked and answered

Read the whole thread before posting.

> Hmmmmmmm?????
>
> ixnay
>

 

[radiochickpa]

Re: WTOP / KYW

> A lot of WTOP's strategy is to penetrate office buildings
> with the
> FM signal (which AM can't reach). How much of an audience
> would KYW
> gain from office reception?
>

There is a saying that alot of folks in radio programming should heed:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

KYW's ratings and revenue are just fine.

 

[Slinky]

> > > ...at this
> > point, 98.1 and 94.1 are still profitable, and if they
> > weren't, there are other obvious music format holes they
> > could fill.
>
> Just curious. Which formats are the obvious holes that
> might work better in Philly than News? (And if you say
> Alternative or Dance, I'm going to shoot someone. LOL.)

Maybe obvious isn't the word I should have used there, but either of those formats would be more lucrative than whatever AM-only format CBS would put on 1060 after the move.

1500 in DC is switching to long-form news, which has a shot of working in DC, where NPR is a force. (I think they'll flub the execution of it, but that's another post for another board.) It has no shot of working in Philly, where NPR is a 2 share format.

To put it in simple math terms:

1060 KYW + 94.1 Alternative > 1060 Long-form news + 94.1 KYW

 

[ixnay]

OK birkenstock, I found it!

FYI though, I'm at work and don't always have time to peruse all of a thread at once. Please forgive me.

BTW is the WTOP (AM) calls still on 1500?

ixnay

> Forget everything I just wrote! (I can just feel the egg on
> my face!)
>
> From WTOP's web site:
>
> Washington, D.C. - In a series of moves dramatically
> altering the radio dial in Washington, Bonneville
> International Corporation has announced that WTOP Radio,
> Washington's 24-hour all news station is moving to 103.5 FM
> today to expand its reach and penetration. Additionally,
> WTOP will partner with The Washington Post to form a new
> radio station broadcasting on the 1500 AM and 107.7 FM
> frequencies in late March.
> "At 103.5 on the FM dial, listeners will get better
> reception," said Joel Oxley, Bonneville's senior vice
> president. "They will hear WTOP in their homes and offices
> throughout the region. It will also strengthen the signal in
> cars driving in the downtown area."
> Classical music station WGMS will move to 104.1 and 103.9 FM
> replacing modern rock station Z104.
>
> WGMS' move to 104.1/103.9 FM will take place immediately.
> Until the launch of Washington Post Radio in late March,
> WTOP will be simulcast on 103.5 FM and 1500 AM and 107.7 FM.
>
> "These changes will help us meet the growing needs of the
> Washington community for news, sports, information, music
> and emergency services," said Bruce Reese, president and CEO
> of Bonneville.
> Bonneville will own and operate both WTOP and Washington
> Post Radio. Washington Post Radio's programming will include
> in-depth local, national and international news and
> commentary provided by Washington Post reporters, editors,
> and columnists as well as news makers and other local media
> personalities.
> "Our venture with The Washington Post will add a new
> dimension to radio in Washington," Reese said. "It will be
> smart, savvy, provocative and thoughtful. News hungry
> Washington is the best town for this new format."
> In addition, Bonneville is launching two new commercial-free
> classical stations that will broadcast digitally using HD
> Radio technology. One station will play traditional
> classical music like that played on WGMS, but will feature
> more in-depth classical music choices.
> The other will be an on-air broadcast of Bonneville's
> web-based opera and choral music station, Viva La Voce.
> Both high definition channels are up now and will expand in
> the next few months.
> Listeners need an HD Radio to listen to these additional
> commercial-free radio stations. For more information on HD
> Radio, click here.
>